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Worm tracks

Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:26:55 GMT

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I fell in love with Dual Shield a while back. I don't need it often & reserve it for Thick steel weldments.Today I was butt welding 1" thick steel outdoors. Breeze was light & I used whatever was handy to block the very light breeze. I experimented with 30, 35, & 40 CFH of 75/25% shielding gas. I did exactly as much grinding as I did welding, but it took much longer. Weld.com says you have to correctly store E71 wire. I store it in plastic bag in second floor of the garage where humidity is very low.I did try a simple bead on the horizontal, it was flawless.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Whenever I used to get worm tracks, the first thing I did was peel off a layer of wire and throw it in the trash. That usually fixed the problem. However, I was not the one paying for this wire. Worm tracks are really just a surface indication, they don't go past the bottom of the track. IME, they are caused by wet flux in the wire, but I have seen guys claim they got it from a brand new roll. I have also seen them come from not enough gas. Sounds like you already eliminated this cause.There's no porosity involved. You can grind them down, or fill them in.
Reply:Arc length can also be a factor along with too high of voltage setting. Chances are it's probably the wire or too low of a gas flow. It's not uncommon to be in the 45-55 cfh range, especially at higher amperage.
Reply:I worked in a shop where a guy threw the Mig gun across the floor because he got worm tracks. He wasn't the only one. We were welding base plates with gussets on flare stacks and it seems for no reason you'd all of a sudden get worm tracks when nothing else changed. 3/4 of it welded up fine, then you go to do the final section and get worm tracks. It was PIA to grind out the welds to repair them. Usually had porosity under the worn tracks so had to grind the whole weld out with a die grinder. Someone suggested maybe the nozzle was getting too hot but that didn't make a lot of sense. Have also heard the flux in the wire can be uneven and cause worm tracks. Too much gas flow can cause turbulence.
Reply:Willie, you did not disclose what your actual CTWD was.  I'm willing to bet it was too close.  Also, you should disclose your wire diameter, nozzle diameter, V/WFS.

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Reply:I guess technically there is no question, so no need to disclose the important stuff to help.

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Reply:

Originally Posted by Oscar

Willie, you did not disclose what your actual CTWD was.  I'm willing to bet it was too close.  Also, you should disclose your wire diameter, nozzle diameter, V/WFS.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Oscar

I guess technically there is no question, so no need to disclose the important stuff to help.

Reply:

Originally Posted by Willie B

Climb down Oscar. I screwed up. I apologize, I answered your question  but failed to click Post Quick Reply. It has been a rough day. As I understand, "worm holes" are nitrogen escaping. I'm not clear where the nitrogen comes from.I'm perplexed that I was able to lay a perfect weld on plate horizontal, in the same slight breeze that I couldn't weld vertical.I love dual shield. Mostly, I love the way it deposits more metal without sag in a vertical weld. Much of my machinery welds are outdoors as the garage doors are only 8 feet tall. I've had another bay planned for years with a 12 foot door. Haven't yet found money or time. If I can't do it outdoors, it's a real deal breaker.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Willie B

Striving for 1", but sometimes as little as 3/4, and as much as 1-1/4"That seemed not to change much. .045" Ultracore. Voltage & feed as instructed on Millermatic 252.
Reply:

Originally Posted by M J D

Was the horizontal weld by chance a lap or fillet weld. Perhaps the gas was getting trapped , thus providing better shielding. 3/4" stickout length should work fine.
Reply:I googled worm holes, all the internet offers is a video from the red haired guy, I don't know his name. He talks about careful storage. It might be a year since I used this reel. I put it in a plastic bag, stored it upstairs in the garage where it is consistently 10 degrees warmer in winter, and 20 degrees warmer in summer. Humidity always low.I doubt the storage theory, as I made perfect horizontal weld.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:We're the voltage and wfs the same? Something has to be different, as I can't believe the position would have that effect.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Willie B

I'm perplexed that I was able to lay a perfect weld on plate horizontal, in the same slight breeze that I couldn't weld vertical.
Reply:I wonder if it has to do with gas coverage. Even with nozzle spray spatter builds up fast. I don't remember for sure, but I wonder if I had recently cleaned the nozzle. I find dual shield needs it very often, I probably cleaned the nozzle 4 or 5 times while struggling with it. I stayed with the same 400 amp Bernard gun with the massive nozzles & contact tips even when I went back to hard wire. The 25 gun that came with the welder has been rebuilt a few times as it overheats welding the thick stuff.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Willie, check this.  https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...ess-welds.aspxMiller Multimatic 255
Reply:Sometimes CO2 is a better outdoor gas. It has a little bit better staying power without CFH so high that you aspirate the weld. Other issues like flux coverage in the wire can do this too as well as to slow of travel speed like what is needed in Vertical up. I always store the 71T-1 with plenty of desiccant packs.Thermal Arc 320SP ( Lorch )Cobra PythonsThermal Arc 300 AC/DC  ( Sanrex )ESAB 301i AC/DC  ( Lorch )Thermal Arc 161STL  ( WTL )Thermal Arc 190S  ( Sanrex )Cut Master 82, 42. Cut45 ( WTL )Victor Gas Apps.Boxes and boxes of welding crap.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Louie1961

Willie, check this.  https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...ess-welds.aspx
Reply:The famous dual shield worm tracks. Gotta love them. Clean rust free wire is a must. Dual shield also requires more stick out. 3/4-1 stick out should be good.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:

Originally Posted by Louie1961

Willie, check this.  https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...ess-welds.aspx
Reply:Get inside and try it. Your never going to figure it out until you eliminate variables. There is no real answer as to how much wind is acceptable as it all comes down to how well the gas stays where your welding. Porosity is entirely different than worm tracks and the cause is usually entirely different. Start with Miller's recommend settings with clean metal, inside, and work from there. The settings I believe are for c-25 and should be within plus or minus a volt. If using co,2 you will most likely need to up the volts by 1-3 volts.
Reply:No it's not just moisture that can lead to this, as the Lincoln article that Louie linked to states. I have some old 71m Lincoln FCAW-G wire that I had the same issue with and I was told it would happen, but I actually made it work pretty good.  I'd love to share what I found, but I don't like to make "blind" suggestions, because they are of no use to anyone. I like to learn the hard data which has yet to be provided (V/WFS/nozzle orifice diameter,etc) so I can compare it to my findings.  It sounds like you just want to have a conversation/chit-chat about it and not really looking for help to get the project/work going/up and running.

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Reply:

Originally Posted by Oscar

No it's not just moisture that can lead to this, as the Lincoln article that Louie linked to states. I have some old 71m Lincoln FCAW-G wire that I had the same issue with and I was told it would happen, but I actually made it work pretty good.  I'd love to share what I found, but I don't like to make "blind" suggestions, because they are of no use to anyone. I like to learn the hard data which has yet to be provided (V/WFS/nozzle orifice diameter,etc) so I can compare it to my findings.  It sounds like you just want to have a conversation/chit-chat about it and not really looking for help to get the project/work going/up and running.

Reply:

Originally Posted by Willie B

Sorry, Life stood in the way.Bernard gun, I can't remember the model

Nozzle diameter: 5/8"Contact tip recess into end of nozzle: 1/8"As suggested on Miller chart on the welder voltage 24.3Speed: 380 IPMMiller suggests 25 CFH, I have tried 30,35, and 40. Steel welded: 1" thick Hot rolled, butt weld, cut 38 degrees from both sides both pieces with approximately 1/16 land spaced 1/16". Vertical up, a series of overlapping stringer beads.On a few occasions I've been smart enough to solve a problem, but I've needed someone to punt me in the right direction. I was very frustrated in 1980 when my first set of stairs I had built wasn't working. I knew for a fact 3x9 is 36. "The Earth is flat, The Devil is real, 3x9 is 36. That is about all we are sure is fact." After a frustrating half hour I gave up, went to lunch. I vented my frustration to my mother. She immediately saw the problem. Been climbing those stairs since that day.I hoped for a easy observation that my fact wasn't fact. Oh well!At this point I'm guessing it had more to do with not being thorough cleaning the spatter out of the bowels of the nozzle.This weekend I hope to explore the issue further.
Reply:Hobart FabCO® Element™ 71Mhttps://www.hobartbrothers.com/uploa...lement_71M.pdfSHIELDING GAS: 75-90% Argon (Ar)/Balance Carbon Dioxide (CO2) 35-50 cfh (14-24 l/min)Lincoln UltraCore ® 71A85 https://www.lincolnelectric.com/asse...1A85/c3126.pdfShielding Gas75% - 85% Argon / Balance CO2Flow Rate: 40 - 50 CFHYour numbers (volts,ipm) look just like the hobart spec's, the lincolns have a broad range listed. The only thing different is the flow(CFH) , they are both higher than what your running.I did notice on the Hobart pictograph in the upper left corner of the first page, they shows vertical up with the gun pointed up slightly. In one of jodies dual shield videos he uses the lincoln book, and it called for a 5deg upward angle. I think thats the most challenging part of the flux core is trying to keep the same gun angle and distance all the way up the work. With short circuit mig you can tell by the sound if your CTWD changes, with flux core its  seems far more subtle to me. I was in the garage, and decided to try some of my olde blue demon wire on some old rusty steel. I was surprized by how little tracking I got. Of course nest time I need to use it on a job I'll probably have problems with it. The last project I used it on (71M) was wheel mounting flanges for a portable gantry crane.

Its kind of like 7018 going uphill, sometimes I get moving to fast.Maybe a picture of the weld if you get a chance.Hope you've already figured it outGood luckAirco 250 ac/dc Heliwelder Square waveMiller Synchrowave 180 sdMiller Econo Twin HFLincoln 210 MPDayton 225 ac/dcVictor torchesSnap-On YA-212Lotos Cut60D

Originally Posted by Willie B

Nozzle diameter: 5/8"Contact tip recess into end of nozzle: 1/8"As suggested on Miller chart on the welder voltage 24.3Speed: 380 IPMMiller suggests 25 CFH, I have tried 30,35, and 40.
Reply:File a patent before someone steals your idea.

Reply:Thank you. That is a lot of information. I guess I was thinking of the large nozzle as a similar effect to a gas lens in TIG. Thought I'd reduce turbulence in the gas. I'll find a smaller nozzle, meanwhile increase gas flow & voltage. In the past successful welds this seemed more similar to a spray weld process where the wire disappeared into a needle just before contact. The superior ability of dual shield to stay put without sag is the big appeal to me. I hope to find time this weekend to try your parameters. I can't find Bernard parts locally, Airgas orders them for me, but hazardous material, handling, shipping, fuel, and tax once brought the price of a stubby TIG back cap to $48.!An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:I'll find a smaller nozzle, meanwhile increase gas flow & voltage.
Reply:Also, you should give more credence to the wire manufacturer than the welder manufacturer regarding operating procedures. Not sure which version of Ultracore you are using, but all the operating procedures are available from Lincoln online.  https://www.lincolnelectric.com/asse...M71/c31251.pdfMiller Multimatic 255
Reply:

Originally Posted by Louie1961

Bill, if you are getting true porosity and not just worm tracks, the issue is gas coverage or lack thereof. I would increase the flow rate and consider using straight CO2. I would also put up better windbreaks around your welding area to keep the breezes out. Not sure I would increase the voltage as that may lead to the actual worm tracks.
Reply:update?

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Reply:It's 8 AM here. Yesterday was our 39th anniversary. It was Nancy's day. I'm heading out to do a bit of fabrication. I'll try more gas. Should I try more volts, or fewer IPM?An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Willie B

It's 8 AM here. Yesterday was our 39th anniversary. It was Nancy's day. I'm heading out to do a bit of fabrication. I'll try more gas. Should I try more volts, or fewer IPM?
Reply:I placed three sheets of plywood for wind control It won't fit in the garage. Doors are 8' tall, hoe is at least 8'9" tall. 26' bays. hoe is 30+ long. With enough effort I can extend the hoe to the back wall where there would be less air current. I haven't tried that yet.Today it was plywood wind screens, and more shielding gas, being diligent about CTWD.No improvement today.This project has taken too long! My customers & my wife are demanding an end. MIG is doing the job. Dual shield is wasting time.A friend & customer was pressing for us to do a three day earth moving project. I jumped the gun on the thumb build & went to work with a brace not yet there. I reasoned it was plenty strong without, I'd be careful. It bent. First order of business today was straightening the 1X4 11" long the hydraulic cylinder acts on. I built a box to use a 20 ton hydraulic jack to push it back to shape. Didn't want excess weld I'd then have to grind off. First weld to break at 40000 lbs was non eventful. The mess you see in pictures is the first broken weld repaired in a not pretty way. Ultimately two other welds failed simultaneously in an explosive manner.

Dual shield with plywood wind screens. 50 CFH Argon 75/CO2 25. Lincoln Ultra core. .045" My regulator won't go higher.Barely perceptible wind. If i dropped a dry leaf it'd land a foot vertically from where it was dropped.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:hat specific UltraCore? There are different variations and not all use mixed gas.Mike
Reply:Try a new spool of wire. I have ran out of gas while welding and it wasn't anywhere near that bad before I realized I was running out.
Reply:I find dual shield fairly forgiving, the way those beads look it seems like you have a major issue like bad gas or wire, more than just a technique of CFH issue. Check out this beautiful turd I laid down when I forgot to open my gas. So thats's with NO shielding gas at all, yours look almost as bad. Thats with Lincoln wire as well. 71Supreme .

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Reply:I dont know what your prep is like, but I have experienced similar porosity with Esab Dual Shield 70 Ultra Plus. In my case its almost always contaminants....traces of grease, paint, rust, plasma cutter dross,etc. IME, dual shield is less tolerant of contaminants than solid wire mig.I stand to get flamed for this, but I sometimes find that foreword/back manipulation of the puddle helps in the case of contamination. Run ahead 1/4 to get the crap boiling out, then fall back and dwell in the puddle to fill out any pockets left behind, then run ahead again.... Also, it seems constant oscillation helps to encourage the contaminants to float out - dont stay straight and steady like you normally would with dual shield. Not in line with approved procedures Im sure, but it seems to help. Edit....looking back at your pictures, Im even more convinced that your culprit could be rust/paint/grease/water. Is this possible?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:

Originally Posted by Willie B

Lincoln Ultra core. .045" My regulator won't go higher.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Oscar

Those are very bad as in, not just worm tracks, there is porosity.  Like someone else mentioned, there are lots of Lincoln Ultra-core's.  Have you every successfully welded with this exact roll using C25?If you look HERE, some Lincoln Ultracore wires use only 100% CO2.  Which exact Ultra Core are you using?
Reply:So again to reiterate, which ultra core are you using exactly?

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Reply:

Originally Posted by Oscar

So again to reiterate, which ultra core are you using exactly?
Reply:

Originally Posted by Willie B

I've used it a few times. I limit it to heavy steel welded out of position. The roll is a couple years old. I built a skidding arch for the bulldozer. I did have a few spots I had to grind out when it got breezy while welding. That was mostly 1" thick stock. I rebuilt a backhoe bucket a year ago with no troubles. It is stored upstairs in a plastic bag when not in use. The second floor of the garage is HOT in summer, and a bit warmer than outdoor in winter.
Reply:

Originally Posted by 12V71

Hot in summer? in a heavy plastic bag that has already been opened and resealed without any moisture eaters? I'm almost betting that is the equivalent of "steaming" moisture into that wire. I don't know the whole story, but it kinda makes sense to me. Your mileage may vary, but i think you need to try some new wire to be sure.
Reply:I see.  Just wanted to make sure that wire was indeed compatible with mixed shielding gas.

Originally Posted by Willie B

I did try a simple bead on the horizontal, it was flawless.
Reply:Is there any way you can bake that wire? I know you probably don't want to just chuck it, but those welds ain't gonna cut it.

Reply:I agree that storing for 2 years in varying temperatures likely introduced moisture into the flux. Wire might not be rusty because Lincoln puts a graphite coating on the wire. Maybe baking it for several hours would help but that might be hard to do with a fibreboard spool. Should work fine with C-25 shielding gas. How clean was the steel you were welding? Could be a combination of things contributing to the worm tracks and porosity. See page L13 of the 2nd link concerning storage conditions. I suspect your wire is contaminated from improper storage. Keep the unused wire in the house where the temperature is more consistent. Dual-Shield isn't the best option for occasional welding where it takes month's to use up a spool.  https://www.lincolnelectric.com/asse...1A85/c3126.pdfhttps://www.lincolnelectric.com/asse...ure/mc1578.pdfhttps://www.dryrod.com/technical-art...lux-cored-wireLast edited by Welder Dave; 06-09-2020 at 01:23 AM.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Oscar

I see.  Just wanted to make sure that wire was indeed compatible with mixed shielding gas.So you said with this exact wire, just before you got worm tracks/porosity, you were able to lay down a horizontal bead with zero issues?  Or was that some time ago and not during this time-frame?
Reply:

Originally Posted by TimmyTIG

Is there any way you can bake that wire? I know you probably don't want to just chuck it, but those welds ain't gonna cut it.

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