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Advice on getting a small mill

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 15:12:03 GMT

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I'm thinking of getting a small mill for the garage.  I make a lot of gym equipment and slowly expanding into furniture and art type stuff. I use a magnetic drill for most of the work. I have a small space to work in, and have no machining experience (my son does however). I have been told once you get a mill the applications are endless.  I don't want a table top style. New or used is fine. Advice and thoughts please.
Reply:I have and use a Bridgeport.. the collets are not outrageously expensive. R8 tooling is what I use.  I got mine used from work and could cheat and load it with a forklift at work, and my neighbor had a bobcat with forks to get it into the shop.  3 phase has a work around so don't let that slow you down.Sent from my SM-G960U using TapatalkI haven't built anything I can't throw away.  Perfection is the journey. Mac
Reply:I think a couple of questions or more info might help to provide more accurate info. What type of power do you have or are you looking at getting a VFD or RPC?How much room do you have?How much are you budgeting for tooling?What are you actually doing that requires a mill? If it is mostly just making a slot for fasteners, an X-Y table might be better.I have a Bridgeport in my shop that I received for virtually free. I ended up buying a VFD thinking I was going to learn how to use all the functions. That hasn't happened. I ended up buying an RPC off Craigslist a couple of years later for another tool and should have just bought one of those. I have probably spent at least $3,000 on tooling over the last five years since the mill did not come with anything. The Bridgeport capabilities far exceed my abilities. I have had to teach machinist and welding classes to a few people at work. They have one of the Jet JF-15 Mill/Drills. That is a whole other type of capability and class of tool. But look at what Farmer Samm is able to do with his. It is a function of his knowledge and patience far exceeding mine. Brooklyn Bravest made a thread about a gear head drill and he put an X-Y table on his drill to give him limited milling capabilities. I am kind of a tool junkie and like having the ability to just walk over to something and use it. If it is something I can use for the business, I don't mind spending a bit more for something and writing it off. Zapster and member "forhire" have some good threads or posts about the machining they do. They might have a higher class of tooling than you need though. Look at the various threads from farmersamm and you can see more budget friendly options.Millermatic 252 MIGMiller Dynasty 200DX TIGMiller Spectrum 625 PlasmaAltas 12x36 Metal LatheBridgeport Milling Machinewww.psacustomcreations.com
Reply:I'll add to what others have said... you'll spend at least what you pay for a mill on tooling.... and that's just for basic generic stuff

Tooling is everything!!!  Of course once you have the basic tooling to make your own tooling the only limiting factor is time and you inclination/imagination to make it

Also I went with R8 for most of my tooling as it's affordable and can handle *most* of the stuff I do.
Reply:I bought my first vertical mill probably 15 years ago. I had never even seen a vertical mill in real life before that, except maybe in catalog pictures. This was before I had access to the internet. It is an old Enco mill. I say old. It was made in 1995. I knew nothing, or next to nothing about a mill, and thought it was the most fantastic piece of equipment ever made. It came with a fair amount of tooling. I think I paid around $1700 for the setup. It has the 9x49 table. And a dro and power feed. After I got the machine set up in the shop and started learning about it, I began to realize that the former owner, who was getting out of the metalworking trade, probably would be much more at home in a butcher shop. At least judging from some things I saw of the mill and tooling. My view on buying a cheaper machine, though, was that I at least wouldn't wreck a high dollar unit while I learned to use the thing. And I'm glad I went that route.  So, in closing, what I'm trying to say is don't let using a mill scare you. I would probably recommend something on the cheap side. Don't get too wrapped up in getting the best, or the most accurate. Unless, of course, money is not an issue. Buy tooling as you need it. It's true that after a few years you may have more in tooling than the mill cost, but remember that the mill involves a sum of money that is spent all at once. Some of the tooling costs can be spread out over time. I certainly wish you well in your endeavors. Sent from my E6810 using http://tiny.cc/Forums_reader
Reply:I found my Bridgeport for $500.My vise, was 500. LolI hit flea markets and craigslist/facebook marketplace for things I might need (like a set of brown and sharpe v blocks for $4 lol)
Reply:PSAAll great questions. I will measure the area tonight. Small is my answer for now. I will look at some threads from the people you mentioned. I'm too ignorant to answer some of the questions. As far as wants and needs this is a want. A large part of it is to spend time working with my son.
Reply:I have a Bridgeport clone that I traded an electric bike for.  I have three phase power on the farm.  (And forklifts )

It came with no tooling but fortunately i got a few things with the used mill drill I purchased used 20 years ago.

If you do decide to go bench top, get a model with dovetail column for rigidity. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk:
Reply:Terry brings up a good point about the dovetail column. They will be better than the round post style. Another question would be what is your required or expected accuracy?There a bunch of YouTube videos on the various mills. Maybe start with a few of those to familiarize yourself with some of operations and the good and bad points.Joe Pieczynksi has some really good videos on machning. Sent from my SM-G930V using TapatalkMillermatic 252 MIGMiller Dynasty 200DX TIGMiller Spectrum 625 PlasmaAltas 12x36 Metal LatheBridgeport Milling Machinewww.psacustomcreations.com
Reply:A small mill you can move.I had mills that weigh 10,000 pounds. Today my mill weights 300 pounds.Today I can move the mill around the garage Dave

Originally Posted by Reebz

I'm thinking of getting a small mill for the garage.  I make a lot of gym equipment and slowly expanding into furniture and art type stuff. I use a magnetic drill for most of the work. I have a small space to work in, and have no machining experience (my son does however). I have been told once you get a mill the applications are endless.  I don't want a table top style. New or used is fine. Advice and thoughts please.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Reebz

I don't want a table top style. New or used is fine. Advice and thoughts please.
Reply:Avoid: small, lightweight and cheap.
Reply:

Originally Posted by ezduzit

Avoid: small, lightweight and cheap.
Reply:Sounds like you want a full size Bridgeport style machine.  Which is great.  I wish I had one.  I hate the limited spindle to table clearance on mine.Buy a new one if you can.  Otherwise take someone who knows how to check a used one out.  They should be dragging an indicator, and a mag base, along if they know what they're doing.  You can't eyeball an old machine, or wiggle it, to check it.  You need to indicate it. And, you need to indicate it on the right surfaces. If the seller gets hot under the collar, go somewhere else.I went down the used path years ago when I bought that old lathe.  I knew absolutely nothing about checking machines at the time,, and I paid the price.  It sits out in the yard where I can see it every day I walk out the door.............................just to remind me that I didn't know crap when I bought it.The Chinese clones are affordable, depending on what you consider affordable.  Wholesale Tool's website is down, or I'd direct you there.  Grizzly is overpriced.  I'd like a DRO, but maybe you don't need one.  It all depends on the work you do.  Unless you get upset if something is off by about .003ish, the leadscrew will give you decent results.120v vs. 240v is up to you, and your shop wiring.  Most of the motors can be wired either wayI think you'll be happy owning a mill.  It opens up a lot of horizons.
Reply:What ballpark budget are you thinking?  It's not terribly hard to buy a really, really nice Bridgeport in the Midwest for $4-5K and even a completely overhauled unit is only in the $8-9K range with digital readouts and power feeds.  Since you're not far away I'd expect your local supply is similar to mine.  Because of that, I'd stay away from all of the clones, unless you find one that's literally like new, simply because it's easier to get parts for a Bridgeport.  In other parts of the country they really just have to take what comes up....just the way things are.Assuming you stick with Bridgeport, you'll want to look at J-head Series I machines.  They come in three basic versions: 1hp machines with step pulleys to change speeds, 1.5hp with a variable speed head and 2hp with variable speed heads.  The later two adjust with a hand dial on the head.  The variable speed heads have more parts and things that can go wrong, but even then it's not a big deal....a complete head overhaul isn't terribly expensive or difficult unless you really run into issues.  The step pulley setups are very robust and some folks like to go with them and then just run a variable frequency drive to have infinitely variable speeds.  Ideally I think the 2J 2hp setup is the best of the bunch, but I'd take a nice 2J 1hp over a beater 2J 2hp if that's what it came down to.Look up YouTube videos that cover what to look for when inspecting a mill...they do a really good job of covering the important stuff.  Generally speaking, if it's reasonably clean, doesn't have holes and chunks in the table, and everything seems to move, you're probably off to a good start.  If you can hear it run through the speeds and it seems smooth, that's a bonus.  The variable speed heads make some noise even when new, but it should be a consistent sort of noise, not a scraping, banging, clanking racket.  The pulleys that move to vary the speed ride on plastic bushings that wear out, and when they do they cause a lot of noise...the good thing is if you catch it before the shafts are damaged it's a cheap, easy fix (other than lifting the motor!)...figure $100 or something along those lines for a kit that gives you everything you need. If you're not in a hurry there are deals out there.  I have a 2J 2Hp with Accurite DRO that I bought for $1500 and then partially rebuilt the head...well under $2K with everything and it runs beautifully.  The table has a bit of lash in the lead screws (.020 and .012 when I checked the other day), but that should only take a new set of nuts (under $100) and doesn't really cause any problems.  I can't count how many decent examples I've seen sell at auction recently in the local area....many under $2K.Having a DRO is handy, but can easily be added later.  Power feeds are also handy and are easy to add later as well.  Vises get expensive quickly, so having one mounted is a plus.  Obviously, the more stuff you get, the better, but if you want to keep your hassle down to a minimum, buy the nicest machine you can afford, even if it doesn't have some of the extras.  There's an entire industry out there supporting Bridgeport mills and the people tend to be really helpful.Check out my bench vise website:  http://mivise.comMiller Syncrowave 250DXMillermatic 350P with XR AlumaProMiller Regency 200 with 22A feeder and Spoolmatic 3Hobart Champion EliteEverlast PowerTig 210EXT
Reply:New horizons with a small mill include mods to make it operate like a larger machine and work-arounds to make it work for your large projects. Then joining a forum dedicated that machine to share how you accomplished a project that you took you a while, because you needed to first fabricate the tooling to make the project.
Reply:I have a M-head Bridgeport that is about 3/4 size of a regular one. I am swapping out the turret assembly and above to a Millport. I do like the smaller size footprint for my needs.
Reply:

Originally Posted by farmersammm

Buy a new one if you can.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Brand X

No need for that.. There are quality used full size mills that will hold it's tolerances for about three life times.. Just depends how they were used, and by who.. Wiring can be a good opportunity to build a rotary convertor/etc.. 3 phase motors run so much smoother in those type of applications..I run my plasma cutter (3 phase works better)AC/DC tig outputs more when using 3 phase, on,and on.. Sam, lathes are a bit different then mills when it comes to buy used.. Lot of lathes are crapped out, but mills you can get in great shape.
Reply:I've been looking at the Precision Matthews mills a lot lately.

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Reply:

Originally Posted by Lis2323

Can all 3 phase plasma cutters operate with a phase converter?I have mine for sale (Miller 1251 Spectrum) and the question has arisen.  I always  leave it up to the potential buyer to determine, but it would be nice to have insight.  Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:I see in video he has weight set.I use weights for parts Just steel in my work shop is weight lifting.Dave

Originally Posted by Oscar

I've been looking at the Precision Matthews mills a lot lately.
Reply:God I'm Ignorant. I work on a glacial time scale, I'm going to educate myself first. As for budget I have a daughter going to college next year so I'm going to see what that does to my finances. The dream is a pole barn and a real shop. My son knows about this stuff so he will be a big help. A big part of this is so he and I can work together. Farmersamm What I see you and others do with lathes and mills is what has gotten me thinking, Funny you said horizons, I too use that term.I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one that has screwed up a purchase. My list is long. Moutaineer MinerCould you take a picture of the glides? I just made a leg press for a guy and that was my only problem area. Is there a part number?
Reply:

Originally Posted by Reebz

My son knows about this stuff so he will be a big help. A big part of this is so he and I can work together.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Lis2323

I really like that part of your journey!

OldendumSounds perfect.
Reply:Dick, its great to see your son is doing good.
Reply:Small budgets call for this  https://www.harborfreight.com/vertic...ine-40939.html  It's virtually identical to the machine I use.  It's limited, but it does quite a bit.  If someone has money, I'd recommend against it.  If you need a mill for smallish parts, or can do workarounds for larger parts, this is the machine for the little guy.If the need is greater, and the budget greater, this is a step up.  Greater spindle to table clearance.  https://www.grizzly.com/products/gri...wer-feed/g0729  Twice the money for essentially the same machine, but greater z travel.  A guy can make a column riser to do the same thing with the smaller machine.  PITA to install/remove, but it's what you can do on a budget.For small machines, these are pretty decent.  Mainly because they're knee mills.  The knee is the dovetailed assembly that holds the table.  It's about as rigid as you can get.  Lock the column gibs, and it's rock solid.  But...............you do sacrifice clearance.  For about a coupla grand, or so, more, you can step into a full sized Bridgeport clone.  https://www.grizzly.com/products/gri...wer-feed/g0757More money, more machine.  It never ends

Both of the little machines are 1000#, or less.  Another thing to consider.  I'd say that about 70% of the work I do on the mill is drilling/cutting holes.  Then about maybe 15% slotting.  And the rest is divided up between shaping, rotary table work, and boring.  That last percentage of work is the costliest, in terms of tooling.You can throw a lot of money at this stuff, and I'm a teeny weeny player.  I'm not by any means properly tooled like a real machine shop.But, then ya gotta ask yourself.  What is a real machine shop....................................If it serves your purpose, and you don't have to outsource the work, I guess it's a machine shop (shrug).  The first time you can just hop over on the mill, and enlarge the ID on a piece of DOM to use as a bushing, you just became a machine shop.When we get into this stuff, we tend to forget how we did it before, OR DIDN'T DO IT because we couldn't do it.  I guess everything is a step up from where you were.I gotta say, that in retrospect,, the Grizzly prices aren't too bad if you can go there and pick the stuff up.  I'm lucky that the nearest warehouse/showroom is just about a day roundtrip away.  Wholesale Tool is a half day trip,, with time to sit and have a great meal at Carl's Junior.
Reply:502 post fix

Reply:

Originally Posted by farmersammm

  https://www.harborfreight.com/vertic...ine-40939.html.  https://www.grizzly.com/products/gri...wer-feed/g0729.
Reply:Ive had a few of the mill drills over the years.. round column both pulley and geared heads. Youre always fighting the round column and quill travel with these. I was able to step up to a Wells Index knee mill with power feeds and it was night and day. It really needed a DRO to be very useful for me. It had some backlash and I wasnt good with keeping track of the hand wheels with the backlash. A move forced the sale. A cnc router entered my life. I bought an import cnc machine from an American company. Turns out the control was junk. This led to me retrofitting a good control (Centroid) on the router. I picked up a dead cnc mill for less than scrap value. Armed with what I learned on my first retrofit I went after the mill. Now I have a 6,000 pound CNC mill with 40 taper tooling and it will do anything I throw at it with ease. I couldnt be happier. Because it doesnt have a tool changer it never ran big production. Its still in great mechanical shape with very little wear.

All of that to say.. Ive been down this road and have explored many of the options. If you can afford it, avoid the round columns. R8 tooling is ubiquitous and can be had inexpensively. Id spend the money on a Kurt vise. They sell scratch and dent through their website and its a big savings. Power feeds on a manual machine, even the small ones, arent difficult or very expensive for the import versions, make a huge difference in surface finishes. They are nice, but not necessary. You can get by with inexpensive import tooling and turn out some nice work.Last edited by slodat; 01-03-2021 at 08:56 AM.Miller Syncrowave 180SD
Reply:

Originally Posted by tackit

Find a machinist club in your area and ask them if they know of any members who may have a machine of the kind you are looking for for sale,  most I met are good people and are glad and willing to help a newbie get started on the right foot. ..
Reply:

Originally Posted by slodat

This led to me retrofitting a good control (Centroid) on the router. I picked up a dead cnc mill for less than scrap value. Armed with what I learned on my first retrofit I went after the mill. Now I have a 6,000 pound CNC mill with 40 taper tooling and it will do anything I throw at it with ease.
Reply:

Originally Posted by MountaineerMiner

Highjack alert, All-in-1-DC?  Looks like a more recent install, any chance you did a thread on that?  I have been sitting on a Hurco KM3P for a few years now waiting to do a Centroid control.  I have about finished up other projects I was waiting to finish before moving onto the Hurco and I stumbled on a Mori Seiki MV-JR locally and underpower about 2 weeks ago.  I pick it up tomorrow.  I am thinking I will still do the Hurco and set it up with a rotary since the hard part of that one is already over (getting it past the wife).
Reply:How is hunt going.The bench mill is great for very long shafts.Just put a roller support shaft and other end mill. A knee mill you have adjust the roller ever time take cut.The bench mill you not have to adjust for cut, I am both a machinist and a welder for over 40 years. Dave

Originally Posted by Reebz

I'm thinking of getting a small mill for the garage.  I make a lot of gym equipment and slowly expanding into furniture and art type stuff. I use a magnetic drill for most of the work. I have a small space to work in, and have no machining experience (my son does however). I have been told once you get a mill the applications are endless.  I don't want a table top style. New or used is fine. Advice and thoughts please.
Reply:

Originally Posted by smithdoor

How is hunt going.The bench mill is great for very long shafts.Just put a roller support shaft and other end mill. A knee mill you have adjust the roller ever time take cut.The bench mill you not have to adjust for cut, I am both a machinist and a welder for over 40 years. Dave
Reply:I have only done a little hunting for a mill thus far. I starting to think about a bench top mill do to my space. I fear I may out grow it.
Reply:Big ticket tool purchases are like wives and girlfriends.  The thing to remember is if and when the time comes, you need to be able to recover your investment or at the very least be able to afford the upgrade. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk:
Reply:I would have started there, and may or may not have outgrown it.  But when you get a series one Bridgeport for $750 with a Kurt vice.  I started there... Sent from my SM-G960U using TapatalkI haven't built anything I can't throw away.  Perfection is the journey. Mac
Reply:I work in tooling and love to steal his ideas.Sent from my SM-G960U using TapatalkI haven't built anything I can't throw away.  Perfection is the journey. Mac
Reply:

Originally Posted by tackit

You have the best tool Ideas on the website lis,  you should be working for a tool design company. I don't have room for all the cool tools and tool accessories you have built and posted here.
Reply:

Originally Posted by Reebz

I have only done a little hunting for a mill thus far. I starting to think about a bench top mill do to my space. I fear I may out grow it.
Reply:LOL. Thanks for the kind words fellas, but truth be told anytime a project of mine turns out okay (or better)  I have you guys to thank for the inspiration and knowledge.  Ive learned a lot hanging out here.  Cheers

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk:
Reply:If used a bench mill it is great.A knee mill you may need to adjust height for each jobDave

Originally Posted by Lis2323

I made this drill bit /tooling cabinet mobile and mounted an adjustable height roller on it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:

Originally Posted by ronsii

There's a company in Canada called Tufftools... they would love Terry's designs...

Reply:What I'm hijacking my on thread! YOU MEET PAMULA ANDERSON, The Pamula Anderson, not the one working at the convent store Did she ask about me?????????? LolI'm going to start looking for table top mills. I like used any good names?
Reply:

Originally Posted by Reebz

I'm going to start looking for table top mills. I like used any good names?
Reply:The one thing that scares the daylights out of me is any gear drive machine.  I'm not saying they're bad, I'm just saying they scare me.If you get caught in a gear drive machine, it won't have the chance to stall before it eats a part of your body.  Belt driven machines have a built in clutch that can save ya.  Those belts will slip when they run up against a stall load.If you work in a cold shop, you will be wearing some sorta warm clothing.  A belt drive might ruin a cuff, but it won't take your arm if your lucky.The usual yada yada yada...........don't wear loose clothing around machinery..........but it can happen.I don't mean to be a buzz kill, but I really like to cover all the bases.......................and...................  I'm tellin' ya from experience.Plan for the worst, and if it doesn't happen.....................you're Golden.  If it happens, you're still nice and clean, not covered with blood, when ya sit down to dinner

  She won't say "poor baby"............she'll complain about making a mess on her floor

  (K'kins was an athlete when she was young.........her reply to any injury........."Can ya still walk?")This is how I've survived 65 years.  I was the guy who went down the hill at 12mph, instead of 25mph.  I made it home every night.Metal working is a lotta fun, and it's rewarding.  Keep it safe, and it keeps on giving ya pleasure.
Reply:Lis has a nice machine, don't get me wrong.  I'm just over cautious.  I would like that machine now, I wouldn't of been safe with it a decade ago.Last edited by farmersammm; 01-04-2021 at 07:01 PM.
Reply:If you go with a small low powered machine, you will be surprised what it will do, given the right parameters.I recently switched over to at least 75% carbide tooling.On a small mill, this would usually spell disaster.  Carbide likes a big bite...........it likes to be pushed.  And, it's intrinsically a "dull" tool.So, now, we're starting to talk technique.  Climb milling vs. conventional milling.I would not recommend climb milling on a small machine UNLESS YOU'RE USING CARBIDE END MILLS.A carbide end mill will fight you every step of the way if you do it conventional.  But, if you take a large bite, it will run like a goose when you climb mill with it.  By a "large bite" I'm talkin' a small end mill...............................3/8-5/8 diameter.  It's about all a small mill can handle.  You can go fairly deep (axial), and relatively deep (radial) compared to the same type of cut with HSS. Crowd it!Don't believe me, try it.  That little mill will eat some material if you climb with it, and drastically reduce the effort to turn the handwheels.  One caution..............enter the material slow SLOW.........once you have the most of the radius buried in the material..........let it rock and roll.  Then, you slow down again when leaving the material at the end of the cut.Then you do the final finish, to dimension, cuts conventional.  Hog uphill, finish downhill.  It works like a charm.  Another way to stretch out that little machine.

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