this stuff looks like solder. i personally would never use it. i remember seeing it on an infomercial one night a few years ago, but just blew it off... has anyone used it? i'm jsut curious to know how it works, if at all.http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...460&pr=goog-sllater,Andy
Reply:I really think that there´s no way that it could work as good as a TIG weld.And I got to say that´s a pretty nice marketing video.My Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3 4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:that's what i figured... it seems a little too much like soldering to me. 750 degrees doesn't sound like anything i would trust... not just for structural, but for anything. i wonder how many people were stupid enough to buy it, and trust it on one of their "prized projects".later,Andy
Reply:There are several comanies that sell products similar to that.I does work. However, the reason you never see the torch setup is because It must be fairly large to get the heat up and keep it up. Using a standard torch will not give satifactory results. 750 degree is not high. Though, you will see how fast aluminum wick heat away if you try using a small torch.If cans are all you want to do, then a standard torch might do. Larger stuff sucks up heat like crazy.I am sure it has application. However, I don't think the hobbiest will be readily set up to use the stuff.Last edited by tapwelder; 10-30-2007 at 09:49 AM.
Reply:Technically, this is soldering because the base metal is not melted and the filler melts below 840 F (AWS definition). I think you can see from the video that this may be good for plugging holes and joining relatively thin sections. The video demostrates the hardness of the filler versus the base metal, showing it is much more difficult to punch through and drill the filler material. But what is not demonstrated is the strength of an actual butt joint or fillet joint in tension or bending. I wonder how the filler would perform on something like a 3/8" beveled aluminum butt joint? I question whether the bond between the filler and the base metal would fail relatively easily?Anybody want to demonstrate a real test of this stuff?
Reply:Originally Posted by pulserI wonder how the filler would perform on something like a 3/8" beveled aluminum butt joint? I question whether the bond between the filler and the base metal would fail relatively easily?Anybody want to demonstrate a real test of this stuff?
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45 including shipping will give you around 22 rods (1 pound). the website:http://www.durafix.com/they say it is for BRAZING however, the video states "welding" i believe. the website shows simple instructions on how to repair a propeller (not sure how well it works), and for brazing together a v-groove joint in aluminum. it also says taht the rods can be used to connect zinc-based metals. however, all the testimonials state how great it is at filling cracks and/or repairing leaks... this leads me to believe that no one shoudl trust it for pressure-containing vessles or load-bearing structures.interesting... maybe in a couple weeks (low on cash) i can get some and test it out. i'll be sure to post video and pictures when i get it in.later,Andy
Reply:I have used a similar product from Harris .It works pretty well for the intended use. I plugged some holes in some cast aluminum chairs.It did fine except the chairs acted as huge heat sinks so it took a lot of time to get up to temp.If you want to try some go to your local welding supply or even Tractor Supply.They will sell you small quantities for much less money.Have Fun !Fortyseven2n
Reply:Originally Posted by Fortyseven2nIf you want to try some go to your local welding supply or even Tractor Supply.They will sell you small quantities for much less money.
Reply:Well they call a 47,000 psi tensile strenght which seems very strong...of course the "stronger than parent metal" must be a lie... if they´re referring to the weld itself and not the material...even thou I think that´s way to high for the filler itself...My Babies: HF Drill pressHF Pipe Bender3 4.5" Black and Decker angle grindersLincoln Electric PROMIG 175that´s it!
Reply:Aluminum's Tensile strength is anywhere from ~33358 PSI all the way to 82671 PSI, dependant upon alloy content. the 47,000 PSI is comperable to a low-grade, low-strength carbon steel. all other steels are rated well above the 47,000 PSI range. i find it very hard to believe that the filler rod can have such a high strength too. it jsut is too soft, and has too low of a melting point to make any sense to me. maybe it's possible, but i just don't see how.later,Andy
Reply:You just reminded me, I forgot to state an obvious drawback of this alloy, you would not want to use it to repair anything that gets hot since it melts at 730 F, and it surely starts losing significant strength as it is heated.
Reply:why the hell would any one use it for pressure-containing vessles or load-bearing structures.? you are getting into the world of professional weldersthere.the day you stop learning in this tradeis the day your in your grave
Reply:Originally Posted by paretrooperwhy the hell would any one use it for pressure-containing vessles or load-bearing structures?
Reply:It is not for welding. All State 509 has been on the for 50 years and it melts at 509 Degrees and works very good. JohnSMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFCand Shielding Gases. There all here. :
Reply:It isn't a weld because welding requires fusion and fusion requires melting of the parent metal. Some solders are incredibly strong. Brazing is nothing more than high temperature soldering. I have used brazing alloys with a tensile strength of 110,000 psi. Mostly on cast iron bearing housings and gearboxes on pumping units. I have used it on gearboxes on 640 lufkin pumping units where the mounting holes have broken out. The 640 means it puts out 640,000 tons of torque. I've never tried this stuff but I am sure it has it's uses. Can think of a time or two I wish I'd had something like this. I have used solders for aluminum with good results, once again it all comes down to the intended purpose.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:works good on small aluminum boats and canoes with small holes in them.
Reply:Ok, here's my two primarily-zinc-coins worth. (In case you don't get that, pennies are made primarily of zinc since the late 1980s.)This might get a little long...First off, lets really talk about the differences between soldering and brazing. The difference is really much more complicated than temperature.SolderingSoldering is when any two materials are joined by melting a filler metal that bonds to their surfaces and solidifies. As far as materials, they have to be neither metallurgically similar or compatible (by fusion welding standards), in fact they don't even both have to be metals. There has been a lot of recent research in soldering metals to ceramics and cermets (ceramic/metal hybrids).The bond between the solder and the parent materials is almost purely mechanical. The flux usually used in soldering allows the solder to flow down into the microscopic pits and imperfections in the parent material that, upon solidification, results in a fairly strong and very electrically conductive bond. Aside from making electrical connections and holding electronics on circuit boards, solder is mainly used in sealing applications (such as copper plumbing) where joint design eliminates the need for a really strong bond.BrazingBrazing is not simply soldering at a higher temperature.Whereas soldering is merely a mechanical bond, brazing involves true metallic bonds.One thing that many people don't realize is that some liquid metals can and will dissolve solid metals just like water will dissolve sugar or salt. For example, if you were to take a large pot of liquid aluminum and drop a piece of iron into it, eventually the iron will be completely dissolved because iron is soluble in aluminum (soluble means "can be dissolved in"). Some metals can dissolve non-metals (iron can dissolve a small amount of carbon, thus becoming steel).The main point is that only one of the metals (the solvent) has to be liquid, the melting point of the material being dissolved (the solute) is irrelevant. When you braze something you bring both the workpiece and the filler up to (and usually above) the melting point of the brazing material (it's usually an alloy itself, but not always). When the liquid brazing filler comes into contact with the workpiece it begins to dissolve a little bit of it and diffuse slightly into the workpiece.Now, because material is dissolved away from the workpiece into the filler, the actual alloy of the filler changes. For example, say you had a pot of molten zinc (held just above it's melting point) and dipped in a piece of aluminum (heated so as to not chill the zinc). The zinc would begin to dissolve the aluminum, but as the aluminum content of the zinc-aluminum alloy rises past a certain point the melting point of the alloy also rises. This will cause the alloy around the aluminum to solidify even though the temperature never changes (if there was enough turbulence and agitation in the pot to ensure a homogeneous mix, it would all solidify at once).When actually brazing it's relatively uncommon for the filler to be given long enough to dissolve enough parent metal for it to change it's alloy that much, it is possible.If you were to take a soldered joint and looked at a cross section under a microscope you would be able to see a very distinct line where the solder bonded to the parent material. However, if you did the same with a properly brazed joint there would be no distinct line. There would only be an area where there is base metal next to base metal mixed with a little bit of brazing alloy next to base metal mixed with a little bit more brazing alloy and so on until you got to brazing alloy mixed with a little base metal next to almost pure brazing alloy. In brazing as in welding, there is no "bond" between the filler and base metal because we are talking metallurgical joints. Only soldering and things like epoxies have bonds because they are mechanical joints.The joint between the filler and the base metal is a metallic interface, just like like the interface between the weld metal and base metal in a fusion weld. About Zinc alloysZinc very readily dissolves copper and aluminum. Since US pennies (since the late 1980s) are zinc with only a copper cladding you can melt them on the stove top without breaking 800 degrees F (the zinc will melt and completely dissolve the copper cladding).Probably the best known alloy of zinc is brass. Brass is a copper-zinc alloy (sometimes it has additions of other stuff like tin) with copper usually making up the larger percentage. The addition of zinc to the copper lowers the melting point from ~1980 degrees F to less than 1700 degrees F (more zinc, lower melting temperature). Since iron is soluble in copper many brazing alloys are made of brass.Another very neat alloy is called ZA-12. It is zinc with about 10.5-11.5% aluminum. It has excellent casting and die casting properties. Also with a Brinell hardness of 105 it is more wear resistant than many steels. With a tensile strength of 58 ksi, it is only slightly weaker than A36 steel* (58-80 ksi). Furthermore, A36 steel has a yield strength of 36 ksi while ZA-12 has a yield of 46 ksi, so with identical cross sections identically loaded, the steel will bend first. It also has very good machining characteristics and will not spark like steel will. All this and it has a melting point of only 810 degrees F.*A36 steel is standard structural steel in the US.About These RodsThe exact makeup of these rods are usually very closely guarded trade secrets. However, it is well known that they are primarily zinc with an addition of aluminum (with tiny amounts of other elements) very close to the above mentioned ZA-12. Given the lower melting point, I would guess they contain less aluminum than ZA-12's 11%, probably around 4%.They are usually advertised as being able to join any non-ferrous metals. This is because most of the non-ferrous metals most people encounter are copper based (brass, bronze), aluminum (and aluminum alloys), or zinc based (white metals, pot metals). As already stated, zinc readily dissolves aluminum and copper, and can therefore be used to braze them.These rods will not work on steel because, While zinc can dissolve iron, it does so very slowly. You would have to keep the filler in close contact with the steel for a very long time, very close to the boiling point of zinc for it to be able to dissolve enough iron to do any good. They will work on galvanized because it is already alloyed with a thin layer of zinc (yes it's actually an alloy, not just zinc stuck to the surface) and you are simply adding more zinc (the filler) to the existing layer (the galvanizing).Now, we get to the controversy as to whether they are brazing rods or soldering rods. As, pulser pointed out the AWS says that it is only brazing above 840 degree F and since this filler melts at 730 degrees F, it would be soldering. However as I've pointed out, metallurgically it is actually brazing. I consider these rods to be brazing rods. In my opinion, the 840 degree F criteria is really only relevant for steels, not for non-ferrous materials. Steels are brazed primarily with copper based alloys and below around 840 degrees F the copper can't dissolve iron fast enough to be useful.Now for some Quotes Originally Posted by aczeller750 degrees doesn't sound like anything i would trust... not just for structural, but for anything.
Reply:my friend brought some of this to me along with a cracked aluminum battery box he had bought for his jeep. it had about a 6 inch crack in the bottom and i fixed it with these rods. it didnt go quite as smoothly as in the video but i got it on there and it fixed the crack. he never brought it back so i guess its still holding. i dont think i would trust my life to it but for simple things that are not under a lot of strain it seems to do fine.
Reply:Good rundown of the basics Tensaiteki. Good reading.
Reply:I've used the stuff. It's not nearly as easy to do as the commercials make it seem. The metal has to be especially clean. Aluminum gives no indication of temperature which makes it particularly tricky. A coating of soot from an acetylene torch will burn off just before the working temp, this is the best indiciation I know of. The stuff works great for repairing holes in castings, but I would not use it for anything else.
Reply:My neighbor bought a boat load of that stuff and he nor I ever got it to do anything well except plug holes in the bottom of aluminum cans. I guess if there is ever a need to plug a hole in an aluminum can then that it is the stuff to get. I tried to plug a seam in my aluminum gutters and I must have burnt through 10 rods before giving up. It just wouldn't adhere properly.If you can get to work for you then the more power to you. I've never had any luck.MichaelMillermatic 25115" Rockwell Drill Press10" Logan Lathe5hp - 2-stage 80 Gallon CompressorHome Made Sand / Soda Blaster
Reply:I was referring to the process and trying to keep it simple. The process of torch brazing is performed in the same manner as soldering. The parent metal is heated to a temperature that allows the heat from the material to melt the brazing alloy and not the heat from the torch flame. The brazing alloy will flow just like the soldering alloy. The parent metal is never heated to the melting point. No dissertation necessary.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Essentially high temperature soldering, just go look on Lincolns website.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:I talked to a fellow today who has used this stuff. He used it to attach the hinge to an aluminum door he made to cover his fuel cap on his truck bed. He said he put it together almost two years ago and it has stayed. He was asking me about doing some tig work on his boat. He said it worked fine on the door, but he wanted the boat stuff welded. His hull was ruined in Katrina so he got a bare hull and used everything else from the old boat. I intend to look into this stuff because it looks ideal for patching small holes in aluminum boats.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.Looks cool. Whats teh difference between MIG and TIG welds?*insert welding gibberish here* Mandy
