1 in, 2 over

Tue, 31 Aug 2021 16:48:47 GMT

go to see Welding Machine for 1 in, 2 over

OK I have a question about how to stack beads. I have been welding for some time and have always known to start from the bottom and build up. I have just recently met an experienced welder who claims starting from the top and working down is the same exact thing.I have tried this method and noticed it seems very easy to end up with slag entrapments due to the possible roll over. In this particular case it is on the chine of a boat. Where the bottom hull meets the side plating. It is basically an overhead/horizontal corner joint. It would be like welding the outside corner of around a 75 degree angle.I am curious if this practice is common because after back gouging this seem I noticed a serious lack of penetration.Me personally I put in a root, connect the bottom hull plate to the root and then connect my next bead to that pass and the side plate. If I put the root in and put the two cover beads in starting from the top would this be acceptable? Is this common because I haven't seen this done in the ten years I have been welding and have been taught that you always start from the bottom and work your way up because of gravity and proper penetration.I hope I explained this good enough.
Reply:Im only in school but thats the way I was taught work you're way up.   I was told the other way is unaccpetable !
Reply:As far as my experience goes, you start with the root, then put your two cover beads on
Reply:weldrwomn your diagram/attachment is for a flat and I am looking for information on a horizontal/overhead joint.It is basically an outside corner joint of an obtuse angle. When you look down the side of it you could call it a horizontal, but it does have a lot of similarities to overhead. I guess you could say it's a chinese horizontal. On the hull we don't get many true flats, verticals or horizontals. I guess I could just ask if you were welding an overhead fillet with one in and two over would it be acceptable to put your first cover bead attached to the top plate and weld and then connect that to the side plate? Same thing for horizontal.I can't find any information on this as to whether or not it's an accepted practice/ welding procedure.
Reply:Originally Posted by Flux coreweldrwomn your diagram/attachment is for a flat and I am looking for information on a horizontal/overhead joint.It is basically an outside corner joint of an obtuse angle. When you look down the side of it you could call it a horizontal, but it does have a lot of similarities to overhead. I guess you could say it's a chinese horizontal. On the hull we don't get many true flats, verticals or horizontals. I guess I could just ask if you were welding an overhead fillet with one in and two over would it be acceptable to put your first cover bead attached to the top plate and weld and then connect that to the side plate? Same thing for horizontal.I can't find any information on this as to whether or not it's an accepted practice/ welding procedure.
Reply:the seem calls for a 100% pen on 1/4" steal. I'm not allowed to have a camera at work, but maybe I will bring my phone is and sneak a picture to better explain.
Reply:Originally Posted by Newfie_1986Im only in school but thats the way I was taught work you're way up.   I was told the other way is unaccpetable !
Reply:Are you running stick ?   Im here looking at my copy of The Procedue Handbook of arc welding by Lincoln.  It appears the fast freeze rods such as 6010 and 6011 can be ran that way.   1 root pass,  second pass tieing top plate and root together and your 3rd pass tieing your 2nd pass,  and 1st pass into the vertical plate.   That is what I see there for overhead and horizontal.I also looked at how to run a horizontal with 7024 and it is ran from the bottem up.  I tried running this rod from the top down when I first started welding and thats when my instructor corrected me.  I had major slag entrapment.Im guessing the only rod that can be ran from the top down are the fast freeze ones ?????
Reply:Using flux core with 100% CO2. .030 wire on 1/4" hull plating. I finally found a picture that can help me explain what I am asking.picture this chine welded from the inside and then having the outside back-gouged. Me personally I would prefer to do 1 in and 1 over, but the seem calls for 1 in with a 2 bead cover.[img=http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9061/chineshotyg5.th.jpg][img=http://img151.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif]Now looking at this picture I have seen people run the root and then put the second pass on top and the third pass ends up on the bottom which ends up looking like an overhead weld. Is this accepted? Because of the angle and actually witnessing this being done I noticed the second bead tends to have a lot of roll over, but the third bead ends up hiding all of it and actually makes the final product look extremely good. I have tried it and it comes out looking great because of the angle. Running the second pass on the bottom makes it difficult to avoid roll over with your third bead. You might not think this would be an issue, but the angle you have to back gouge to "take out the line" and get 100% penetration causes a very difficult seem and position to weld.
Reply:a fonzanool is a person who pisses in the sink and washes his face in the toilet.and  now for  purposes of this thread, he would choose to weld from the top down...
Reply:Welding from the top down is completely unacceptable in structual fluxcore welding. This is not textbook welding procedure and some jobs would tell you to hit the gate. You should always after your root start from the bottom up.  The weld may not come out as flat as you would like but looks can be deceiving. You are looking for strength and penetration over looks on something that has to be watertight.  Best regards.   Fire it up or go home!
Reply:that is the problem I am having! I cannot find any official rules for procedure. I have searched for it and have come up empty handed. Although I have learned a lot of information about welding I have yet to get an official written document about the procedure.I always thought of this as common knowledge, but I guess common knowledge isn't all that common when it comes to welding.
Reply:What you have always done is correct from a structural viewpoint. Boat hulls need to be structurally sound and watertight. The experienced welder you met is plotting a course for troubled waters. (imo) I wold run uphill and stack horizontal welds from bottom to top. (...Ifn it wur me.)City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:That picture really helped. If the second pass is on the top and the third is "hiding" all the rolled over parts of the weld it could also be hiding cold lap, lack of fusion and slag. Could be.You are back-gouging the weld from the inside?  And the welds that are performed like the "experienced guy" does it are showing a "serious lack of penetration"?That seems to speak for itself. Are you having to back-gouge less to get to solid weld with your welds?If so, screw what they look like. If you are getting better penetration, and your not getting slag inclusions, the toes of the weld are "wetted" right, etc etc. You are probably getting a better weld.Alot of horizontal/overhead welds can look a little different, but are still sound welds.Is there a CWI or a weld engineer on the job? This is for a boat. I would hope somebody was inspecting this stuff.Just my opinion.Yup
Reply:Flux core,                  If it is procedures you are looking for I would highly recommend you purchasing the "rocedure Handbook of Arc Welding" by the James F. Lincoln Arc Welding Foundation.   It can answer virtually any question you could possibly imagine about the world of welding.  You can buy It directly at lincolnelectric.com for 25.00 or so.  Its just a suggestion if you are serious about doing a job the right way.  Best of luck!Fire it up or go home!Last edited by Clark Riffle; 11-23-2008 at 11:30 AM.
Reply:I know what I'm doing is right and thanks for the info on the book, but I'm concerned the hull is getting welded incorrectly and is some how making it out to the harbor as a passenger boat!I'm planning on bringing my phone into work and grabbing some pictures of it after my 4 day weekend. I listened to this guy brag about how great he is and yadda yadda and then casually walk by the chine when he takes off for a walk. I just scratch my head and think this can't be right and what a mess he's making. The one thing I'll give him is he's got a decent "looking" root although I do think he uses too much wire and gets slag entrapments on all his starts and stops. I've seen his horrible looking second pass only because I asked him to teach me how to do it. I was curious so I had to play dumb. I honestly put my helmet in my hand and walked away right in the middle of him welding. It was that bad and I didn't know what to say when he was done (he's my lead man) because he's my lead man and I've learned to pick my battles if you know what I mean. 3rd pass is another nightmare and ends up with undercut, but it's unnoticeable unless you get up close with a light and find a spot that hasn't been beaten to death with a needle gun. These welds are making it past Q.C. and the Coast Guard Q.C. (it's a passenger ferry)lincolnelectric.com - I'm going to get this book Clark R. and thanks =)Edit* - we're welding the inside first and then back gouging from the outside.Last edited by Flux core; 11-25-2008 at 09:19 PM.Reason: forgot some info
Reply:Yes,such is the plight of this day and age, when people no longer take pride in what they do,but are quite content with doing a half ##s job.  The case can also be that the individual cannot weld as well as they may believe. In either case, how much pride you take in your work says an awful lot about you.    Keep up the good work.Fire it up or go home!
Reply:Hey Flux-core,I quit a job awhile back because of a clueless lead man. I was hired as a fitter and they would routinely run out of work for me so I would end up pounding out parts on fixtures.One day, I get this job, its two pieces, both are 1/2" thick A36 plate already cut, they form a "T" when put together in the fixture and get a 3/8" fillet weld along the entire joint, as per the print.So I set up the machine and clean the mill scale off and lay in a real nice 3-pass 3/8" weld on the first part, I was running Lincoln L-56 .045 hard wire with 90/10 gas, spray transfer.He comes over and starts cussing at me, and asks to try the machine out, and just says "this is way too hot, and you have the fixture all f-ed up"The fixture this guy made held the joint in a vertical position,I had layed it horizontal so I could spray arc.He grabs the MIG lead with .035 wire, which is set up for short arc, tilts the fixture so the joint  is vertical and runs a 1/4" vertical down pass and says "do it like that, you think you can do that?""you've got that machine set so hot that the metal is just sitting on the surface, it needs to run like this so the wire pushes into the plate to stitch it together"WOW These brackets hold the fuel tank to the frame of a locomotive, never mind what the print says, he has worked here for 25 years so he MUST know everything! Yup
Reply:You are right. You lay the second pass at the bottom side and the 3rd. pass on the top so it joins in the middle (I know what I'm trying to say, hope I made it clear). As a matter of interest don't you have weld specs that stipulate proceedures? All the large companies I've worked for give you a proceedure sheet. You can't draw rods without it.  It is made out to the individual and has your welder number on it, the store records the steel batch number and the rod store the rod batch number. It also stipulates what rods to use,ie Kobe 52LB root run, Ferrocraft 61 all other passes.Your welds are marked with your number and everything is traceable. If you don't follow proceedure you are fired. After the job the sheet goes to the inspectors who check your job and then is filed as a permanent record.