but I was actually able to weld 2 bends together today It's still far from great, but it's functional now and so much better than it was. I'm still trying to adjust the settings, but right now I'm at 90 amps, a balance of 75, frequency of 140 and using orange tungsten with 4043 filler rod. One difference is that I'm using non polished aluminum this time, I'm sure the better welders could weld the polished stuff, but I'm not even near that point yet.I dipped once or twice, but I'm actually happy with what probably looks hideous to most of you. I still think I'm using too much filler rod, I used (2 ) 36" in length and 1/16th" in diameter 4043 filler rods, to go around the 3" OD piping that I welded together, I may step up to 3/32" filler rod next? I also was given some suggestions from a forum member that I want to try.Do my "after" pics give any clues to improvements I can make? I'm off to buy some more non polished bends BeforeAfter
Reply:I am by no means a pro, but that is waayyy too much filler. I am doing stainless steel for my "hot side" setup and used about 8" of filler for 2" pipe. What is the cooler for? Mine is a turbo Mustang.Dave
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ave,I agree, I think I am using too much aluminum filler also. I know that I definitely use less filler when I'm welding the equivalent in stainless. I'm hoping that as I get better, I'll use less filler? I also think I might have been moving too fast and a little heavy on the pedal at times, and that might have been what added in me using more filler than I should be, but I'm not experienced enough to know that yet.It's for a twin turbo Supra
Reply:It looks cleaner than last time, but still not ready for a twin turbo setup, Get some more pipe and keep at it. Its a big improvement, but you will be able to do better with more practice. Still looks like its not cleaning enough.DavidReal world weldin. When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Each time you dip the tungsten you need to stop and re shape it.
Reply:I'm not sure what welder you are using, but with my 200DX, I find that I get pretty good welds without excessive cleaning with the balance set between 68 and 70.Also, the polished pipes might actually be coated. I've had people bring me those China made bends before and they are often chrome (or other) plated. I suspect because it's cheap to do so over there because of lax environmental laws.Here are a couple intercooler piping welds done with pretty much the same machine settings as you...less the balance set lower
ast edited by kjlindgr; 05-20-2009 at 09:13 AM.www.lindgrensupercars.comMiller Dynasty 350Miller Dynasty 200DX - retiredMiller Millermatic 210Miller Spectrum 3080Miller "
ower of Blue" stool Miller Syncrowave 180SD - retired
Reply:Originally Posted by 2uzgteI was actually able to weld 2 bends together today I'm actually happy with what probably looks hideous to most of you.
Reply:You will know it when the filler is contaminated, If you are looking at a clean puddle, then dip the filler and it looks dirty the filler is the problem.Pulser is dead on abut the hand wire brush, you will feel it when you are through the oxides. I wipe my filler with an alcohol based cleaner. Some use acetone. There are other alternatives like a scotch brite pad. Even your glove it its not too bad. Don't use any abrasives with alulminum oxide in them. I don't want that in my welds.DavidReal world weldin. When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Kjlindgr:I don't see any marks made by cleaning. Only the oxide cleaning zone (AC+).What do you do for surface prep for something like that? Hand stainless wire brush?Powered stainless wire brush?Scotchbrite pad?File?Scraper?Acetone?Hope and a prayer?Just the AC+ of the welder?TIA: Craig 9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:Craig, I'm lazy so 90% of the time I just wipe and weld. Most of the time it works out fine. I don't recall the last time it happened, but I'm sure I've been burned by it, but I've done enough aluminum where I can tell before things get out of hand.When things are visually way gunked up, I use a scotch pad.2uzgte, once again...make sure those pipes aren't plated with anything. It might be my monitor, or it might be my imagination, but they look plated...not polished. Look at this spot in the picture. That looks like the cleaning action of the welder got to the lightened areas that were wire brushed enough to break the coating, but couldn't get through other areas. Typically this area is more uniform around the weld pool and not in jagged lines that just so happen to coincide with wire brush marks.Just my $0.02 www.lindgrensupercars.comMiller Dynasty 350Miller Dynasty 200DX - retiredMiller Millermatic 210Miller Spectrum 3080Miller "
ower of Blue" stool Miller Syncrowave 180SD - retired
Reply:Originally Posted by kjlindgrCraig, I'm lazy so 90% of the time I just wipe and weld. Most of the time it works out fine. I don't recall the last time it happened, but I'm sure I've been burned by it, but I've done enough aluminum where I can tell before things get out of hand.When things are visually way gunked up, I use a scotch pad.
Reply:I am wondering if those surfaces might have been anodized??? The contamination is considerable to the point that there has to be a gas problem or other contamination.
Reply:All of you that are talking about contamination or surface oxidation, are you referring to the before or after pictures?The before pictures were piping that were definitely either coated, plated, anodized or something, and trying to weld those were so frustrating, I almost through in the towel.The after pics were on aluminum that was not polished and welded much easier.I definitely need to buy some acetone and a scotch brite
Reply:I was talking about the before pictures. The after pictures are definitely uncoated pipes that just need some tweaks to gas flow, balance rate, or cleaning to filler or base metal to make them look nice.www.lindgrensupercars.comMiller Dynasty 350Miller Dynasty 200DX - retiredMiller Millermatic 210Miller Spectrum 3080Miller "
ower of Blue" stool Miller Syncrowave 180SD - retired
Reply:2uzgte,Being critical, but you did ask.Personally think you're putting the cart before the horse.What I see in both sets of photos is someone who has yet to master the basics of tig welding. Not that that's a slap, it's where everyone starts.Welding pipe presents a different set of challenges than welding aluminum in the flat (in position). Torch movement as you "go round" the pipe will take some time to master.I think you'd be better off picking up some flat scrap and working on your beads before you tackle pipe. What I see in the photos is a total absence of puddle control, consistent movement, dipping filler, etc. Once you can lay down a bead, without thinking about it, then comes the time to move to pipe. None of those beads would indicate to me that you're there yet.Get comfortable with the torch, the heat, dipping filler to control the puddle, backing off the pedal as heat builds, consistent movement, torch angle, arc length, etc, etc.It takes most people quite a while before they're comfortable welding pipe. Don't get impatient. Learn the basics first. If it was easy, "everyone would be doing it".Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Just general info but anodizing is a very hard and durable layer of aluminum oxide. It takes considerable effort to remove it from the surface of the aluminum. Polishing it will not do it... a file is would be a good place to start. Another contaminant that I am more familiar with is aluminum hydroxide which is that white powder that appears on aluminum that is in a wet area. After the physical cleaning then some sort of solvent cleaning follows,
Reply:There's waaaaay more going wrong than insufficient cleaning. If you're determined to try and conquer this on your own via some help from welding forums then you need to provide more details and do some tests to eliminate some of the suspects. 1st thing i would suggest is to run a short, 1/4" or so long, autogenous (without filler) weld on some stainless. Should come out 'colour free'. If that's dark and /or dirty then you can start tracing the leaks in the PURE argon system. Post 'em if you're not surePost some pics of your tungsten after useAs suggested run some welds on flat sheet/plate Al. Post them tooFWIW the 1st 'weld' looks to me like it was done with argon/CO2 or without gas, second looks to full of metallic contamination (tungsten?)A weld on 'dirty' base metal (in this case a gearbox case that is/was a particually dirty casting- lots of porosity, bits of sand etc that keep bubbling up while welding) typically looks something like this...The etched zone is bordered with some of the contamination that the arc dealtwith. Some is trapped in the bead. Probably a pretty good match the origional casting regarding inclusions
Reply:A little more improvement, I still am using too much filler sometimes but having brief successes here and then and I'm starting to play with torch angle and proper puddling. My dipping motion is getting a little more consistent although every once in a while I still dip the tungsten which makes me .I believe I've got my settings at least close, thanks to a few members who made some suggestions via PM's.I also got some different gas and this round of gas seems to be better (could be placebo but I don't think so)Here was today's best weld
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at's da ways ya dooos it....atta boy!Master Manipulator of Molten Metal Matt. 5-14 14"You are the light of the world. Therefore Ladies and Gentlemen.....let there be light! The welder creed: 'Mo heat, 'mo rod and 'mo money!Old school AWS member '96.
Reply:Try cleaning the pieces with a good de-greaser (Simple Green with a big splash of Amonia) and rinse clean with clear water, blow dry, Power scotch brite the weld area to remove AL oxides (Plating will remove if it's there) to shiny briight metal, pre-heat to 350 - 400 degrees , no more than 1/8" tungsten stick out of the cup, gas flow @ 40 fps with RBO 22 50%/50% AR / He, torch angle straight above the puddle to 10 degrees toward forward movement, your AC balance should be @ 30%, 4043 rod size @ 3/32" would be better, dip the rod into a molten weld area, move, melt, dip, move, melt, dip, 4043 is a Aluminum rod and you posted that stainless intercooler piping you were about to give up on. 2 waaaaaaay different critters here....you look as if Aluminum is what you are trying to weld....the parameters above are for AL...if you are working with AL, it MUST BE VERY CLEAN AND SHINY....no "wipey" will ever be good enough...."kjlndgr" has got it going dude....try and immitate that....good luck..Master Manipulator of Molten Metal Matt. 5-14 14"You are the light of the world. Therefore Ladies and Gentlemen.....let there be light! The welder creed: 'Mo heat, 'mo rod and 'mo money!Old school AWS member '96.
Reply:Originally Posted by jstasney...
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88Good information, but I think your throwing way to much tech talk at someone s new to tig welding. Also no need to preheat on thin pipe like what he's working on. And I dont see why he should use a helium mix, its not thick stuff he's working on and I dont think travel speed is a concern.Like someone else mentioned, those issues in the first few sets of pictures were going way beyond improper cleaning, there was something seriously wrong with gas coverage or filler/base material. Like it was shown you can still weld over dirty aluminum and not get welds that look half that bad.That last weld is getting close, though its a bit hard to see. I think your biggest problems now are torch angle and how you add the filler. Keep on playing with the angles of both and your speeds and you should get it. I would like to see you just run a bead with no filler added, just a straight puddle. This would make it easy to tell if your machine is running right.
Reply:What I see is a bunch of Gobbly Gook from posters trying to be helpful, but are just confusing the issue. If you're trying to "impress" someone with your knowledge of aluminum welding, it's not working for me. (By the way, I also weld a fair amount aluminum).I said it before, and I'll say it again. The OP has not mastered the basic tig process in the flat position and he's trying to weld pipe. Cart before the horse. Learn the dang basics before you try to get fancy.You sure as heck don't need a "hot" mix to weld aluminum tube. That's BS and will just confuse the OP.You won't find me "scotchbriteing" my aluminum before welding. That's what a SS brush is for. Imbedded particles play heck with tig.Preheating is definitely not needed for this application. Ever tried to build a boat tower preheating all the joints? Added complexity, not needed.Choice of tungsten is a personal issue, based on experience. Personally, for that application, I would be using a 3/32" 2% Lanthanated tungsten with a 7/8 cup and a gas lens.Still say the OP would be ahead of the game by learning to tig in the flat position first and then move to pipe. Motor skills are not there yet.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Say what you want, you not the only one who welds aluminum for a living. IIRC he is also using an inverter machine, however I forget what make. I know miller recommends ceriated for their inverters, and lincoln suggests red. The wrong tungsten will cause some problems, but nothing like what is being shown. Ceriated is perfectly acceptable for use on aluminum with any machine ive encountered, and I have used it on inverters and transformers with good results in AC.Adding a preheat on thin material is going to make it exponentially harder for a beginner to weld, its obvious he still has a way to go before he gets a solid grip on puddle control. And if the dirt is not removed by brushing or cleaning with your special mixture, it will have a minute effect on the weld.As for the gas, thats just not needed. If his machine is straining welding thin tubing, then he has bigger problems. The gas would assist in the cleaning action slightly, but 100% argon is used every day to produce very clean, perfectly acceptable welds.And your right, moving to slow with not enough heat will produce the welds like in those pictures, but that does not mean he has to change his gas and add a preheat, only that he needs to turn the amps up and change how he adds his filler.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:FWIW,jstasney,On your urging, I did check out your welds shown in your "photo album".To say that I was "underimpressed" would be putting it mildly.The photo of a "pipe weld" taken on Dec 7, 2005 (Pearl Harbor Day) would never be allowed to leave my shop. I do hope the results have improved since that photo was taken.The photo of a 1/4" filet on 4043 aluminum was equally disappointing. You don't even want me to start a critique here.If you want pictures of "perfect" tig welds, look up photos posted by KB Fabrications or Engloid. I don't do too bad myself, but I can't hold a candle to those guys.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.Absolutely use a bigger filler rod. If you have the ability, then work on your upslope and downslope. Set the upslope to 0-.3, and the downslope to maybe .5. You want to really cut the power and ramp up the power quickly. With settings close to these, you will get much better welds. Also, go ahead and use 3/32" tungsten, you should be fine with that. As for cleaning, if you sare trying to use anodized tubing, you need to start off practicing long before you build one in anger. It's just a fact. For anodized, all I do is acetone wipe, but I also set the cleaning at 70 rather than 75. It helps push off the anodizing much better. Good luck. And, I am with Sundown pretty much on this. You will need good welds for these intercooler tubes, or you will see mad failures. Welds that are that far off of good looking are not likely to be strong enough to last. The last pic, you might make it at that point. DOn't be too shy with the filler. This is aluminum, not SS. You need enough filler to grab the material and hold it.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIWhat I see is a bunch of Gobbly Gook from posters trying to be helpful, but are just confusing the issue. If you're trying to "impress" someone with your knowledge of aluminum welding, it's not working for me. (By the way, I also weld a fair amount aluminum).I said it before, and I'll say it again. The OP has not mastered the basic tig process in the flat position and he's trying to weld pipe. Cart before the horse. Learn the dang basics before you try to get fancy.You sure as heck don't need a "hot" mix to weld aluminum tube. That's BS and will just confuse the OP.You won't find me "scotchbriteing" my aluminum before welding. That's what a SS brush is for. Imbedded particles play heck with tig.Preheating is definitely not needed for this application. Ever tried to build a boat tower preheating all the joints? Added complexity, not needed.Choice of tungsten is a personal issue, based on experience. Personally, for that application, I would be using a 3/32" 2% Lanthanated tungsten with a 7/8 cup and a gas lens.Still say the OP would be ahead of the game by learning to tig in the flat position first and then move to pipe. Motor skills are not there yet.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIFWIW,jstasney,On your urging, I did check out your welds shown in your "photo album".To say that I was "underimpressed" would be putting it mildly.The photo of a "pipe weld" taken on Dec 7, 2005 (Pearl Harbor Day) would never be allowed to leave my shop. I do hope the results have improved since that photo was taken.The photo of a 1/4" filet on 4043 aluminum was equally disappointing. You don't even want me to start a critique here.If you want pictures of "perfect" tig welds, look up photos posted by KB Fabrications or Engloid. I don't do too bad myself, but I can't hold a candle to those guys.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIFWIW,jstasney,On your urging, I did check out your welds shown in your "photo album".To say that I was "underimpressed" would be putting it mildly.The photo of a "pipe weld" taken on Dec 7, 2005 (Pearl Harbor Day) would never be allowed to leave my shop. I do hope the results have improved since that photo was taken.The photo of a 1/4" filet on 4043 aluminum was equally disappointing. You don't even want me to start a critique here.If you want pictures of "perfect" tig welds, look up photos posted by KB Fabrications or Engloid. I don't do too bad myself, but I can't hold a candle to those guys.
Reply:Originally Posted by jstasneyCouldn't find a single pix for the guys you referenced....KB Fabrications or Engloid. Point 'em out....but, I've never met a 'perfect' weld before...some really good ones though....
Reply:Hey Paul,this is not a pi$$ing match of imperfect weldersyou know?? your right...Seriously, All I was trying to do was help the OP.I didn't give any dissin' until I got some dissin'.BUTSince I've been welcomed away from here by a half dozen or so, so far....in the last hour....that appreciate a new and different approach.....no matter how fancy or techie....that seem to be more about helping than putting someone down for their unique abilities or methods...I gotta say.....whoa....Remember now, if we don't see ya here, we'll see ya....ya hear?Ladies and gentlemen....Elvis has left the building...C me L8trMaster Manipulator of Molten Metal Matt. 5-14 14"You are the light of the world. Therefore Ladies and Gentlemen.....let there be light! The welder creed: 'Mo heat, 'mo rod and 'mo money!Old school AWS member '96.
Reply:Jstasney, don't take it personal. There is no infractions, or anything like that. I am simply saying let's cool this before it gets real hot. That's all I am saying. We do welcome the different viewpoints and techniques, there is nothing wrong with that. I just don't want to wind up putting out fires all over town!!! Thank you for being understanding. Paul.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:I don't know what my gas cup size is, should I measure it? If I go up what difference should I expect, vs if I went down in size (more narrow)?If you all want to critique me laying a bead on some flat bar stock, I'm happy do that ... cart before horse or not, piping is what I need to weld, so even if it isn't as pretty and efficient as it should be, I am able to weld aluminum so that it is functional now. I made an intake system for my beater in the mean time, as I figured that'd be a good piece to practice on before I make the intercooler piping sometime next month. Even though there is no real world performance gains from 2 filters, I decided to try to merge two pipes together for practice and put 2 filters I had lying around the garage on it. I was reasonably happy with how it turned out.
