Well,... i did cut and weld my muffler the other day so technically this is my second time welding. But it doesnt matter. Anyways. I have learned so much in 1 hours time. Thats how long I spent welding today.Here's my first attempt at welding 1/4" steel. Very sloppy. I knew this wasn't right. I was experiencing a lot of kick back. The welding wire was pushing into the weld pool to fast and was pushing the gun away. This was causing the arc to go and spark up consistantly. Lots of splatter. It was like this when I did the muffler. So much neater. I used the settings that I was suppose to use too. Attached Images
Reply:I did a strength tes by whacking it with a hammer. I dont have a vise set up at the moment so I just whacked it with a hammer against the ground. The first was holding pretty well until I got the one piece far over enough that it finally broke. I thought that maybe it was because I didnt really clean the steel surface. You know that brownish coating on the steel? Its not rust. I dont know. So I cut two new pieces and ground the welding surfaces clean. That did even worse. The two pieces broke before either one bent. Attached Images
Reply:So i decided to try some thin steel. I leaned real quick how easy it was to burn through thin steel. Funny thing was that I was again,... using the settings on the inside panel of the machine. I ended up turning the power setting and the feed rate down the the lowest setting. Worked like a charm. No burn through and it held strong. Still a bit messy but whatever. I'm still learning. Attached Images
Reply:I'm not very experienced at wire welding. I do a little now and again.On the thick stuff you might try turning the volts all the way up, and making a smaller bead. Then you can adjust the wire speed from there. I'm assuming you have a small 110 wire feeder like I use once in a while.It will work on thicker stuff if you keep a tight focused small bead, and make multiple passes.(not necessary on 1/4 stock)I think you would have been more pleased if the legs of the fillet were maybe no more than 1/4 inch, and smaller. I guess no more than 2/3 the thickness of a lead pencil. The puddle would have been "wetter" and easier to control. And it wouldn't have been excessively convex.High round beads usually mean there wasn't enough heat. It can be caused by low amps or trying to make too big a weld, or a combination of the two. There's guys better versed in it than me."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Ok,... now check this out. I changed the setting around for welding 1/4". I left the power to the highest setting. But I turn the feed rate down the the lowest. I set it to 1. Let me tell you! The welds came out that much better! No kick back. The arc was steady and there was a whole lot of penetration! I was so impressed after that. The welds were neat and pretty tight! I want to get some more steel and try that again and see if it wil break. Things I noticed is that the steel was really red hot after welding like that. Much hotter than before. There was less splatter too. I was going slow the whole time but felt like I was not in control. Now,... I felt like I was in control. I was working that weld pool this time. Letting the heat soak into the steel. I even burned through the ends of the 1/4". I'll have to stopp a bit short next time. Attached Images
Reply:I wasn't able to get this piece to break. I can't remember if I welded this with my settings or the machines settings. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI'm not very experienced at wire welding. I do a little now and again.On the thick stuff you might try turning the volts all the way up, and making a smaller bead. Then you can adjust the wire speed from there. I'm assuming you have a small 110 wire feeder like I use once in a while.It will work on thicker stuff if you keep a tight focused small bead, and make multiple passes.(not necessary on 1/4 stock)I think you would have been more pleased if the legs of the fillet were maybe no more than 1/4 inch, and smaller. I guess no more than 2/3 the thickness of a lead pencil. The puddle would have been "wetter" and easier to control. And it wouldn't have been excessively convex.High round beads usually mean there wasn't enough heat. It can be caused by low amps or trying to make too big a weld, or a combination of the two. There's guys better versed in it than me.
Reply:You did a bit of adjusting and found some improvement, that is good. There are about, oh at least 5, or so (100) variables that affect molten steel before it cools. Take apart the variables one at a time by comparison, and you begin to learn the effect they have. One pointer, with any "tee joint", aim directly into the joint at about a 45 degree angle to the flat peice and to the horizontal peice. Travel angle is different, I am just talking about joint angle for a bit, the weld puddle needs to be half on the flat peice, and half on the horizontal peice. Then, as you make the bead, adjust the joint angle to compensate for gravity and metal thickness as you go. That is just one of the 500 or so parameters that affect a tee joint, or any joint for that matter.Keep learning, you'll do fine! Watch the puddle, not the slag!City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:1/4" with a 140 welder? That's past the max on that machine, but I see you are learning how to use what ya got.Having the tap (voltage) all the way up, helps a bunch. The wirespeed (feed) controls the amperage. Adjust it until you can either push or pull the gun & get a good bead. The pic's in post 5 show a bit of undercut on the edges. Turn up the wire speed a notch or two, then try again. Hold your speed steady as you move.The brown stuff on the steel is from the flux burning. Your wire is flux-core & it will do that. Welding with gas is slightly different & you don't get the slag.The last pics show a big improvement. Keep practicing, you will get it sooner than you think.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Nice improvement in such a short period of time and good job on the photos. Keep practicing and as Danny points out keep making small adjustments to the voltage and wire feed speed to see how it affects your weld quality.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Thanks guys. Whats undercut? Cutting through the edges? So if I turn down the wire feed that not only slows down the wire feed but also increases the amps? I'll try 1.5 next time. I tried 2 but was still getting some kick back from the wire.I dont know about these 140's,... but Im almost convinced I could burn a hole through this 1/4" with it. I dont like that Im welding with the max power setting but it does work.I want to get another welder. Yes. Already. I have a project coming up. I am goingto build a MechMate CNC router. It requires some welding. I'm very sure I can do what I have to do with this 140 I have. A lot of the pieces for this machine is 3/16 - 1/4" steel. The machine is huge. I was told that a DC stick welder would be better. I was also also told that a 140 DC stick welded could easily handle 1/4"+,... which means I wold like to shoot for something a bit more just to be safe. I dont want to run my machine at max to weld. So,... is a DC stick welder a good choice? What about a more powerful MIG? Thanks guys. I'm goign to post my MechMate build in the project section of this forum.
Reply:Undercut is where the base metal at the edge of the weld is cut away by the electric arc but not replaced by filler, weakend the joint significantly.230 volt stick welder will certainly handle thicker steel, but IMHO it will take a bit longer to get decent results than with mig. To me mig with gas is about the easiest it gets, just set the dials then pull the trigger, keep angle reasonable and travel speed about right and good looking welds come pretty quick. As long as you put enough heat into it they should be sound. 110 volt plug in welders just don't have the jam to put in solid single pass welds in 1/4 inch plate though some would like you to think their product can do it.Best, easy to use set up is likely a 230 volt MIG with gas. If you can add gas to your 110 you will like it a lot beter. 230 volt AC welders can be had heep and are good matches to a 110 volt mig, good to practice with and weld the 1/4 inch plus stuff.Last edited by Timberwolf; 06-01-2009 at 08:57 AM.Lincoln PT185 TIGLincoln 175 MIGLincoln 240 amp AC StickLind Needle Arc plasma welderPlasma cutter, soon???
Reply:I am thinking about taking a welding class. Just so I can learn the basics. I really want to get a TIG one day. I heard they are hard to learn or to get right. I think I'll be fine with getting a beefier MIG for now. We'll see. Also,.. the brown stuff I was refering to wasn't the slag. It's the brown surface of the A36 steel. I dont know what that coating is.
Reply:You're getting some good feedback about your welds....It just takes some practice....you'll get it.Check your private messages.
Reply:Originally Posted by mudbugoneYou're getting some good feedback about your welds....It just takes some practice....you'll get it.Check your private messages.
Reply:I noticed in your first picture the work clamp didnt look like it was making a good contact. A poor work clamp connection will cause inconsistent and cold welds. BTDT
Reply:Is this a 110v machine? Are you using an extension cord with the machine?
Reply:Glad to see there's another newbie out there. I just got my new machine fired up yesterday, and have been encountering the same issues the last couple of days. Very good tips in this thread that helped me a lot.
Reply:Sorry for the late reply. Been busy. So the way the clamp is in the first pic is considered poor contact? I read that you should have the clamp as close as possible to where you are welding and that it's making good contact in the sense that the area isn't dirty under the clamp. Other than the slag the area is clean and close. So because the clamp isnt fully on the work piece thats considered poor contact?Yes this is a 110v machine and yes I'm on an extension cord. Why?
Reply:Originally Posted by HDHGlad to see there's another newbie out there. I just got my new machine fired up yesterday, and have been encountering the same issues the last couple of days. Very good tips in this thread that helped me a lot.
Reply:Originally Posted by cvriv.charlesYes this is a 110v machine and yes I'm on an extension cord. Why?
Reply:Originally Posted by SupeMarginal electrical outlets and extension cords can create havoc when trying to weld with these things. My little 110v would weld beautifully and was more responsive to the actual settings when plugged directly into a decent outlet. Throw an extension cord on it or move it to a different outlet, constant stub outs, excessive spatter, and poor overall performance.
Reply:Originally Posted by cvriv.charlesSo I if I have to use an ext cord I should use the shortest one possible and one of a really thick gauge. Right?
Reply:Hmmm. When I experience the wire pushing the gun back away from the weld is when the wire speed is to fast. Thats when the most splatter occurs too. I have had splatter that was literally pieces of half melted wire. Also,.. the arc sounds like crap too. Very inconsistent. A snapping noise from constaly starting and stopping. This is with the amps maxed out. I am thinking theres just not enough power to melt the work and the wire fast enough at higher wire feeds. I noticed that the work doesnt get as hot when I feed the wire to fast.If I max the amps and turn the wire feed all the way down,.. I achieve the most heat and penetration. i get some burn through because there is to much heat and not enough wire feed. I want the heat to so I can penetrate the 1/4" so that leaves turning up the wire feed a bit. At these setting I have a steady buzz sounding arc as you said.Maybe I will do some welding in the morning after work if it's not raining. I will show some comparison pics. the more I think about it the more sense it makes to me. Fluxcore is actually pretty easy. MIGis another story. I can see how that would be a bit harder witht he use of gas instead of flux.
Reply:Your penetration will drop going to gas instead of flux core..You're operating at the limits of the Lincoln 140 with flux core on 1/4" material. Part of your problem might be your extension cord.... I've got a 50' 12/3 industrial cord should I need it,but usually my machine is plugged into a dedicated welder circuit that's only 15' from the panel box. If you're using one of those cheap 100' orange extension cords it may be causing you a problem.But technically I'm not having a problem at the moment. And yes I was using one of the cheap orange ext cords. And yes I forgot to buy a better shorter ext cord at the hardware store I just came from! Damn. I'll have to go back later. for it. I bought some more practice steel. But it's raining out still. This sucks.
Reply:Some of those orange cords are as small as 16/3....most are 14/3.... A 100' cord could cause you some voltage drop issues...The Hobart Handler 140 suggests around 70' if I remember correctly. I've got both a 100' & 50' very good 12/3 commercial cords, I seldom use either,but would think the 50' one would be the best choice if needed for extra reach. You could buy the wire and makeup your own cord...I wish I had a 25' heavy duty cord most of the time it would be all I should need.
Reply:Originally Posted by mudbugoneI wish I had a 25' heavy duty cord most of the time it would be all I should need.
Reply:Hey did some more welding/ tests. Pretty cool stuff. I love it. This is actually a snippet of a larger worklog I posted else where. So some of the stuff mentioned below I had already brought up with you guys already. Just ignore it. Been practicing my welding skills. My girlfriend bought me a 110V 140amp Lincoln MIG for xmas. Seeing that there is a god amount of welding involoved with the mechmate router,... im practicing now. I only have like 2 hours of practice under my belt. LOL. But I'm doing good! I have a good grasp on flux-core welding with a MIG welder. In this pic I'm set up to make a weld. I'll first tack weld that in place and then complete the weld with two hands. I'm ok with one hand but I perfer two when I can. This is going to be a strength test because many dont believe that a small 110V welder can weld 1/4" steel. Going to prove them wrong!Sloppy. It's been several days since my last 1 hour practice session. LOL. I have to stop welding to the ends. I'm melting the ends away. I'm going to do a 3" run across this section here. I have it already tack welded in place. I'm at it with the wire speed at 1.5 here. I prefer 1. Better penetration. But you have to go slower through to fill in the weld. Done. This is pretty ok. The brown stuff is slag from the flux-core wire.Just did the other side with the wire speed at 1. You see how the weld is concaved? I think they call it undercut. Its from not filling in the weld aka slow wire speed. I used a wire speed of 1 which is ok but I went to fast. Didnt give the machine enough time to fill it in. This has good penetration though. Everything was melted under that bead. This "thing" your looking at is a wire speed setting of 2. The inside panel of the welded said I should be using a wire speed setting of 2.5 for 1/4". I dont get it. It obviously doesnt work. Not enough heat for that wire speed. There was tons of kick back, respark, slatter,.... just ewww. You see how the weld bead is large? Thats from not having enough heat. The bead grows quick because theres just enough heat to melt the wire onto itself. Not enough to heat the work too. Poor penetration. This is a wire speed of 1. This time I went slower. The beads looks more like a chamfer now as oppose to a concave. I really should be using a wire speed of about 1.5. You want to build up but I like this weld. It's clean and tight.
Reply:Here's the ugly weld with some of the slag removed. There's still some left. It's actually looks like melted metal. It all has to be removed before painting. Best to grind some of the weld away to be sure the slag is gone. Or if you have a sand blaster, which I dont.My pretty weld. The slag is on the edge of the bead. Tried getting a cross cut to see how far I penetrated but that obviously didnt work. I wonder how they get cross cuts?!?! You see the difference in bead size? Although the bigger bead looks stronger,... ?I have my money on the smaller beads. I know I penetrated far.Here's a crappy 1.5 wire speed. I was playing around to see what would happen if you moved to fast or two slow. Just want edo t see what would happen. I was moving a bit fast in this pic.Moving fast here too. Time for the strength test. Did the 110V welder do the job most think is not likely? We'll see. This is the first weldment I did. I did it with a wire speed of 1 with the amperage maxed. I went kind of quick with this weld. Not 100% sure it will hold. maybe 90% sure. I had a weld kind of like this break the last time I tried. But I was super new at that point. So I did another one with the same settings except this time I went slow allowing the heat to seriously soak into the metal creating that permanent bond I am looking for. I stayed clear from the edges too. Still sloppy. THE RESULTS ARE IN! It's conclusive! LOL.That is ONE piece of metal you see there, not 4.
Reply:This side I used a big thing of pliers on the top of the flange and just muscled it down. It work but I though that wasn't convincing enough so I broke out the hame and beat the S@#$ out o fthe other side.Yeeeeea. This isn't going to break. Awwww. Thats thin sheeting. With setting maxed,... I can just blow holes through this sheet like a knife through paper.
Reply:As mentioned, but worth mentioning again ...A too long or too small diameter (a bigger AWG number, a 12AWG wire is bigger than a 16AWG wire) extension cord or a combination of both means that some electrical power is lost/used-up in the electrical cord and never even gets to the welder. That means that the welder will put out less power than normal or expected. So use the biggest wire size (smaller AWG number) and shortest extension cord to be able to do the job and look in the owner's manual for what the machine's manufacturer says is required or recommended as far as extension cords (and other things ). For welders or other amp-hunger power tools (circular saw, etc), 50 ft of 12AWG extension cord is usually OK but 100 ft of 16AWG extension cord is NOT OK.Next, you seem a bit confused about 'heat' and wire speed and amperage and voltage settings on the machine. The amperage output on a wire welder (GMAW or FCAW) is controlled by the wire feed speed (WFS). So WFS = amperage adjustment. Depending on the wire size and the workpiece thickness, you also have to adjust the voltage setting to get the right combination of voltage and WFS to get the proper amount of 'heat' (power actually, as power is voltage x amperage) to make a proper/correct weld. The voltage setting is not the 'heat' setting or the amperage setting, it is the voltage setting.FCAW wire usually burns 'hotter' than a similar-sized GMAW wire, and thus your maximum workpiece thickness that can be successfully welded with a small wire-feed welder is usually thicker than if you used a solid GMAW wire. Most small 120V wire-feed welders max-out at a recommended 16 gauge workpiece thickness for GMAW (solid wire), while the same machine may be recommended for 1/4 inch for a max workpiece thickness when using a small FCAW wire. Read up about wire welding and how the settings interact and so forth over on the Miller or Lincoln or ESAB or Hobart websites. There is tons of information available there (for FREE!) just by surfing through and reading.www.millerwelds.comwww.lincolnelectric.comwww.esabna.com ( for ESAB North America) or http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/index.cfmwww.hobartwelders.com or right to the learning section at http://www.hobartwelders.com/elearning/Also, you DID read through some of the information right here on WeldingWeb about 110/120V 'MIG' welders, right? http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=20883Your original post in this thread mentioned "kick back". That is caused by the voltage setting being too low for the WFS being used, and/or just plain trying to get the machine to more than it really can do. Kick-back is caused when the wire is fed into the weld faster than it can be melted. So you have to increase the voltage and/or decrease the WFS until you have the appropriate combination for the job at hand. You just can't grab a spool of wire and put it in the welder and then turn the WFS knob to max and the voltage setting to minimum and expect to have the appropriate parameters. And yes, most small 120V wire-feed welder have plenty of power to burn/melt/vaporize right through thin-gauge sheetmetal. It's controlling the available power (machine and wire and parameters and operator) in order to properly WELD thin sheetmetal that is the tricky part. On the other end of things, if the workpiece is too thick for the machine's output power (usually from the amperage output that is available, but actually it is a combination of the amperage and the voltage AT that amperage) then you can have a 'cold weld' aka inadequate fusion/penetration aka cold-lap. That happens when the wire melts on top of the workpiece but there wasn't enough amperage/heat/power to properly melt the wire INTO the workpiece. Small MIG machines are notorious for that, because at a quick (or even a closer) look everything LOOKS OK. But it's not. General rule-of-thumb for wire-feed welding (as you can find all over the place from the above mentioned websites) is 1 amp of welding current for each 0.001 inch thickness of the workpiece. So if you have a piece of 1/8 inch steel that you are trying to weld, that means about 125 amps of welding current (since 1/8 inch is 0.125 inch). To get that welding current (power), the machine AND the wire AND the process have to be appropriate. The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Amps equal heat. The more amps you want the more volts you need. Got it. So,... if I turn the WFS up that increases the amps? Why does it seem like the other way around? I can weld fine with the WFS at 1. But if I turn it up to 2+,... I experience kick backs and cold welds? Because there's not enough voltage? Not enough volts for a WFS of 2+?!?! I have my welder on a 12/3 25ft cord. I know some of my welds are cold welds. It's only when I run the wfs above 1.5 that I get cold welds. The welds that pile up on the work. If I run the wfs at 1,... im literally cutting into the work. Thew work piece is severely red hot right after I stop. I know the wire penetrated the work. I dont understand why though. The WFS at a lower number means less heat. right? But it does a better job. I dont get it.
Reply:The top tap, rotary knob, selector switch (whatever you have on your welder) controls the voltage. To weld 1/4" steel with a 110VAC MIG, you need to turn your voltage up to near maximum. Use the wirefeed speed knob to adjust how the weld performs -stub outs, burn backs, stuttering weld. 1/4" will need maximum or near maximum volts & amps on that 110v machine.Your getting cold welds because your voltage isn't high enough. Crank up the voltage, then adjust the wire feed speed. You shouldn't have to wait to build a weld puddle & it should be hot enough to begin melting the metal together immediately.Check out this thread on my test pieces: http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=29514Moonrise was very helpful with the info he provided as were many others. Page 2 on that thread starts the welding tests.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Amps equal heat. The more amps you want the more volts you need. Got it. So,... if I turn the WFS up that increases the amps? Why does it seem like the other way around? I can weld fine with the WFS at 1. But if I turn it up to 2+,... I experience kick backs and cold welds? Because there's not enough voltage? Not enough volts for a WFS of 2+?!?! I have my welder on a 12/3 25ft cord.
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ook,... I have my voltage maxed. I run my machine WFS at 1. With these setting I get and instant weld pool and I am able to weld smoothly. If I turn the WFS up increasing the amps which is increasing the wattage which is heat,... I get cold welds. The welds increasing in size quick as it piles on itself. I gets kick backs and the arc sputters. I turn the WFS back to 1 and its perfect.This is what I dont understand.
Reply:If your voltage is not high enough increasing the wire speed , which you would think would make it run hotter, will actually produce cold welds. This is because the voltage is not high enough for the wire speed and it needs a higher voltage to burn the wire. The wire is part of the circuit and will try to push the gun back because there is not enough voltage to cause it to burn properly. Because you have more wire there that isn't getting burned properly the weld will be cold. Most welders will give you a starting voltage/wire speed for a specific metal thickness. If you can't get an acceptable weld using these guidelines then I would suspect something is wrong with the welder - voltage not changing properly.I would set the wire speed in the middle and then move the voltage from max to min and see what kind of change you get. I guess you could also measure measure the voltage at the tip with the trigger pulled- not while you are welding but by just letting the wire run out. You would probably need two people unless you have some alligator clips. I have never measure the voltage on my pro mig but I will the next time I use it if I can remember. Since on the smaller welders there is a tap change for the voltage you should get an incremental change on the voltage knob.
Reply:After rereading the posts, I think your best bet would be to invest in a good extension cord. I have done the math and a 50 ft. number 12 AWG cord will give you an acceptable voltage drop even at 20 amps. Most receptacles in a house are on a 20 amp breaker. Keep in mind, this is if the receptacle is an acceptable distance from the load center. Unless you are welding from an out-building a long distance from the house you should be OK there. The length of run from the receptacle to the load center is also part of the equation and has been stated in the above posts.Voltage drop is a function of resistance and current. Increasing either one, increases the voltage drop - there is a direct relationship. An easy thing to remember is that if you double the length of the extension cord, you double the voltage drop.After using a good cord please come back and tell us what happened.
Reply:Ok, as another newbie, I thought I'd post some pics per cvriv.charles' request. Moonrise, great post- I learned a lot and actually printed it out when I went out to the garage to practice today. Hope that's OK.I've played with the flux core as well as the MIG processes with my Lincoln 180T. I definitely like MIG better- much cleaner. I need to get some .030 and .035 MIG wire to try. The machine only came with .025. These photos are of 10 gauge with .025 MIG. My photography isn't great- partly me, partly my camera.I used the settings for voltage and wire speed as exactly the inside of the machine door read, and it seemed OK. Last week when I really first started, I was tending to turn the wire speed down, maybe to "keep up" with the pool, not sure. Maybe I've gotten used to it. Are the welds not as concave as they should be? That's what I'm wondering. Attached Images
