Another newbie asking TIG advice for 6061-T6 aluminum tubing

Tue, 31 Aug 2021 15:35:38 GMT

go to see Welding Machine for Another newbie asking TIG advice for 6061-T6 aluminum tubing

I want to build wheelchair frames which are built from the same material that bicycles are built from: 6061-T6 Aluminum tubing. I understand that a TIG welder will be needed.Considering I am VERY poor (not joking) and will be using a welder for no other purpose, I hope someone can suggest a portable welder for this light task.Thanks for any advise....Billy D. KiddPlano, TX
Reply:Realistically, I would rent a unit.  You cannot realistically buy a unit to do what you want for less than $1500ish new, and that's for a unit that works marginally on aluminum.  $2200 will get you a machine that will run thinner aluminum well.
Reply:Originally Posted by SupeRealistically, I would rent a unit.  You cannot realistically buy a unit to do what you want for less than $1500ish new, and that's for a unit that works marginally on aluminum.  $2200 will get you a machine that will run thinner aluminum well.
Reply:Originally Posted by SupeRealistically, I would rent a unit.  You cannot realistically buy a unit to do what you want for less than $1500ish new, and that's for a unit that works marginally on aluminum.  $2200 will get you a machine that will run thinner aluminum well.
Reply:Originally Posted by bassboy1That's provided you are proficient with TIG already.  It isn't something you can buy, practice for a few weeks, then start making wheelchairs with - it's going to take months of practice and many hours spent under the hood before you can begin to undertake any projects that aren't just piddling around.
Reply:Billy,Visit Miller's website and look at the Dynasty200 AC/DC power supply.  I think this is the machine for your needs.    You can make short welds on aluminum  with an air cooled TIG torch. Sounds like a used Dynasty will fit in your budget, if you can afford $2200.I have a Dynasty200, it's about 20" long, 8" wide and 10" tall.  Weighs about 40lbs.  Miller's site can give you the exact specs.  You'll need 220V single phase power.  You can run a Dynasty on 110V, but I think the power draw for welding aluminum will push you into using 220V 1 phase. Originally Posted by BillydkiddSupe, I have a small budget for getting started and want to buy rather than rent considering this will be—hopefully—a for profit endeavor.There's really not much to tube bending and milling contact areas, and I have a very well stocked wood working shop with saws etc., so the welder will be my biggest expense, and $2200 is not out of the realm of possibilities if I decide to go through with the project.However, I would like to keep the footprint as small as possible, and was hoping to get a welder that could weld tubing without a big power need.Thanks...
Replyucky for me, BassBoy, time is one resource I have an abundance of; plus, a big dedication to learning new skills.
Reply:A little off the subject, are you actually thinking that you can build chairs for less than major mfg's. who produce hundreds a day?  Im not familiar with the wheelchair business at all, are you hoping to break into a custom built chair niche?Making accurate, repeatable bends on thin aluminum tubing is a difficult enough task by itself without a computerized bender.  Making quality welds that will not crack over time is something that is only going to be accomplished by a professional.  Whats your aluminum experience?That point I am making is what kind of warranty are you going to offer with these chairs?  If they start to crack and fall apart after a year, does the repair come out of your pocket?And to your question I would recommend a dynasty 200, but an experienced welder could easily do the job with the much less expensive syncrowave 200-250's.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88A little off the subject, are you actually thinking that you can build chairs for less than major mfg's. who produce hundreds a day?  Im not familiar with the wheelchair business at all, are you hoping to break into a custom built chair niche?Making accurate, repeatable bends on thin aluminum tubing is a difficult enough task by itself without a computerized bender.  Making quality welds that will not crack over time is something that is only going to be accomplished by a professional.  Whats your aluminum experience?That point I am making is what kind of warranty are you going to offer with these chairs?  If they start to crack and fall apart after a year, does the repair come out of your pocket?And to your question I would recommend a dynasty 200, but an experienced welder could easily do the job with the much less expensive syncrowave 200-250's.
Reply:Originally Posted by BillydkiddHowever, I would like to keep the footprint as small as possible, and was hoping to get a welder that could weld tubing without a big power need.
Reply:I am on the same road as Billy but somebody told me about the Miller Diversion 165 AC/DC TIG welder, and that is new for $1,650.00 (http://store.cyberweld.com/mitigwedi...FRkcswodYDsn5w)What do you think about that one?Thanks.
Reply:Originally Posted by Billydkidd I have a very well stocked wood working shop with saws etc., so the welder will be my biggest expense, and $2200 is not out of the realm of possibilities if I decide to go through with the projectThanks...
Reply:Originally Posted by esvipronI am on the same road as Billy but somebody told me about the Miller Diversion 165 AC/DC TIG welder, and that is new for $1,650.00 (http://store.cyberweld.com/mitigwedi...FRkcswodYDsn5w)What do you think about that one?Thanks.
Reply:I was reading at some forum and a guy was saying he had one of those, and it was welding aluminum fine. Then he provided a couple of websites with the welder.In that site it says that you can get it a little bit more cheap at some other site. Actually I need one later on just for some bicycle projects I want to do with frames, etc; and maybe for a muffler and things like that, nothing else. Just home projects. I have a cheap 90 amp flux core and a 120 amp arc welders, and for me at home is more than enough and they are working good. Also have a 40 amp plasma cutter.I am just welding and having some fun as I never welded before. As Billydkidd  I have as well a small woodworking home-shop, but always wanted to add welding ,plus I like to repair my cars myself, when needed, and many times I wished I could have a plasma for removing old nuts and cutting the exhaust pipe…and whatever comes as a new idea.Thanks
Reply:Esvipron at best it's an 1/8" machine despite Millers PR, and to do that you need to be maxed out pretty much at the start. The lack of options also limits the machine as far as the bottom end as well. Can it be done by a skilled welder, "YES". The problem is the new welder will have dificulties compensating for the machines short comings. Sort of like trying to learn to drive in an old "B" model Mack, where you need both hands to shift, one foot on the clutch, one on the gas and an arm thru the manual steering wheel while all this is going on. You'd be much better off learning in a  solid  automatic daily driver instead..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:You are right. I will wait until I can afford the one that will make my work easier; and for the bicycle projects I will probable look for old steel frames.Thanks
Reply:I was suggesting a used Dynasty 200.  I agree that a new one far exceeds the OP's budget of $2200. Originally Posted by DSWA_DAB_will_do, The Dynasty 200 base model (SD) lists at $3500 the DX at almost $4500. I'm not sure where you pulled the price you posted from, unless it's a bare machine. If so he'd still need torch, leads, regs and so on that would push it over $3K.
Reply:Thanks to all for the information. I certainly have a better idea of how much money I'll need, and the equipment.The way I look at it, if I buy a welder and it does not work out then I can sell and recoup a good portion of the investment, so it gives me something to think about.....Billy D. KiddPlano, TX
Reply:Your dodging a very important question, what is your metalworking/aluminum welding experience?Welding thin aluminum tubing into complex frames where accuracy and looks are crucial is not something a beginner is going to be able to accomplish.  Period.  Practicing for a few weeks wont make things much better, unless you pick it up very, very quickly.I like what your trying to accomplish, ive had similar ideas myself more than once.  Problem is that you usually find out that there is a reason why those items cost so damn much.  And 2k base for a custom titanium wheel chair and 800 for some very well made wheels isnt a bad price at all.  Do you understand the cost and requirements to fabricate titanium, it is very expensive and time intensive, requires very skilled welders.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Not trying to burst anyone's bubble, but......This whole thread sounds like a PIPE DREAM.1.  Equipment is "not cheap".2.  Learning curve to do properly is "years", not weeks or months.3.  Is there really a market for this?Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88Your dodging a very important question, what is your metalworking/aluminum welding experience?Welding thin aluminum tubing into complex frames where accuracy and looks are crucial is not something a beginner is going to be able to accomplish.  Period.  Practicing for a few weeks wont make things much better, unless you pick it up very, very quickly.I like what your trying to accomplish, ive had similar ideas myself more than once.  Problem is that you usually find out that there is a reason why those items cost so damn much.  And 2k base for a custom titanium wheel chair and 800 for some very well made wheels isnt a bad price at all.  Do you understand the cost and requirements to fabricate titanium, it is very expensive and time intensive, requires very skilled welders.
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonPractical advice from every experienced poster.....but that's not what the OPwants to hear.....so it's ignored.For folks that have little to no knowledge or experience in 'doing something',whatever their envisioned task is--always looks very simple, certainly notrocket science.1-since it's an established urban legend that 'anybody can weld'......the issue of welding is settled2-OP has decided that-- "There's really not much to tube bending and milling contact areas"??accomplishing decent form bending, without strain cracking, in hard 6061?????fixturing, indexing and machining tube joints is a no-brainer?3-The issues of product and fixture design are not even considered, which apply equallyto low or high volume production. Custom, one-off's still require fixturing, gaging, etc.Billy, there's a lot you could learn via this forum and other resources, if you can fathom thatwhat you're proposing, may not be all that simple.
Reply:Just to chime in a little partial on subjectMy buddy is a paraplegic and has been so since he was 11 hes roughly 34 now.  He is covered for a new chair (i forget the timeframe) say once every 2 years He has to fight with them when he go's to get fitted to get what he wants they keep trying ot stuff him into a uelsess wide chair that is cumbersome for himThey cant seem to under stand he needs to work out of this chair and haul it around.  he's one of the hardest working/playing friends i have (Welder, mechanic both small and larger engine, excavator operator, truck driver, drag races, the list go's on)  Anyways, i hope this is a fulfilling venture for you and your friends!Joe
Reply:Originally Posted by BillydkiddDave, for you and, Sundown, there is a very simple answer to both posts...If either of you have the technical skills to weld aluminum there is no reason I can't develop the skills also. Period. My original question simply ask for suggestions on a welder.Billy D. KiddPlano, TX
Reply:Originally Posted by A_DAB_will_doI was suggesting a used Dynasty 200.  I agree that a new one far exceeds the OP's budget of $2200.Originally Posted by makoman1860Exactly! Unless someone is blind, they can learn to weld. It will take longer if being self taught, but thats ok. At one time we ALL didnt know ^%$#& about welding, some of us were taught in schools, others taught at home, and others self taught. Welding isnt magic, a mystery, or hard....or as one of my favorite welding books starts out " Anyone of average intelligence that has the patience to learn can become an accomplished weldor ". Weldors are a group that seem to think very highly of themselves, sometimes too much...
Reply:Originally Posted by dstevensWhile it's admirable that the OP wants to start a business and the custom chair business certainly has a market, he's underestimated what it's going to take to build a quality product.  In just the questions alone one can see that he's not researched the fabrication aspect too much.  Sure it can be learned but not in weeks.  Welding is one craft and tubing fab is another.  To bend tubing the OP will need around a grand in bender and tooling.  And that's if he is able to hand bend from a chair.  If not add another grand for an air over hydraulic.  Then some sort of fab bench and tooling and jigs for that.  Really around 3 grand to get started just in welding equipment.  2k plus for the machine plus  rod, gas, safety gear.  Is the shop wired for a 200 amp welder?  You need to learn the metalurgy.  What collets and tungstuns to use, how to set the machine, what size rod.  Performance welding non ferrous (or even ferrous) material like that is difficult and takes time to learn.I think it's a great idea for a one off custom fab business.  I knew a guy way back when that was really into racing chairs.  It's quite an evolved sport/business.  But it's not something you're going to be able to do for a couple grand and a few weeks worth of practice.  Not and have a world class product at first.
Reply:Originally Posted by dstevensWhile it's admirable that the OP wants to start a business and the custom chair business certainly has a market, he's underestimated what it's going to take to build a quality product.  In just the questions alone one can see that he's not researched the fabrication aspect too much.  Sure it can be learned but not in weeks.  Welding is one craft and tubing fab is another.  To bend tubing the OP will need around a grand in bender and tooling.  And that's if he is able to hand bend from a chair.  If not add another grand for an air over hydraulic.  Then some sort of fab bench and tooling and jigs for that.  Really around 3 grand to get started just in welding equipment.  2k plus for the machine plus  rod, gas, safety gear.  Is the shop wired for a 200 amp welder?  You need to learn the metalurgy.  What collets and tungstuns to use, how to set the machine, what size rod.  Performance welding non ferrous (or even ferrous) material like that is difficult and takes time to learn.I think it's a great idea for a one off custom fab business.  I knew a guy way back when that was really into racing chairs.  It's quite an evolved sport/business.  But it's not something you're going to be able to do for a couple grand and a few weeks worth of practice.  Not and have a world class product at first.
Reply:Ok points taken, however I dont see where the OP has really shown his ability or lack of. He never mentions that he is a hurry, in fact he mentions having all the time and the desire to learn new skills. Also he mentions that the chairs are a one-off type deal, so jigs are as simple as wooden structures, nothing fancy needed for mass production. 6061-T6 tubing isnt that hard to work with, bending dies can be made from hard maple if he has a wood lathe. I sometimes get the feeling we like to overcomplicate the tools needed for a job. Especially for low run type constructions. Some of the finest light plane designs made were drawn out on a shop floor with chalk, or on jigs made of plywood and firring strips, its all in the creativity, and skill of the craftsman. Billy, dont give up, learn the skills, look for help if questions arise that cant be answered with research. What you are building is made in a very similiar manner and with similiar materials as homebuilt aircraft, so look there for help if its needed.
Reply:Some times it can be important to hear the things you don't want to hear.  Just because you asked one question, doesn't mean that it is the only one you SHOULD be asking.  Your starting to get defensive, but no one is making attacks; simply expressing concerns.  Whatever you decide, good luck.  Zap- Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Billy D,I'd [like to] recommend that you go with the Dynasty 200, new or used, and if you find a 300 or 350 used then get that instead, if they're within the budget?On the chairs I've seen tube joints aren't the only welds I've seen the occasional block of metal used to form a base for a brake pivot, axle hub and some hinge bases in odd locations on some folding chairs.    These might take a bit more heat, but they'd all warm up with some propane if you only worked with the 200 amp power supply.My reason for suggesting the 'Cadillac' power supplies is their longevity and large number of features to help tune the arc for different conditions in the weld.  I have welded for longer than you mention you've used your chair and in that time I've never used a power supply as capable as my Dynasty300DX.  I understand the 350 goes beyond the 300's controls so, not for the power but for the ability to create 'the perfect' arc for each different weld, my recommendation is to spend the big dollar and get the best.Of course, I'm spending your money pretty freely from my keyboard, but the cost of the Dynasty has been worth it in my business- if you were to research used power supplies you might also make a quick comparison about resale value to see how well these higher cost welders fare in the used equipment sales?  If, as I think is the case, they do hold their value the best, then your risk is less even if the initial outlay is higher.I have a very close friend who is a C4-Qaud and I've worked on his Vet's Admin chair more than once, he overcomes and ignores, in a single day, things I don't think I could handle - ever.  I know that if you can overcome the challenges that resulted in your needing the chair; you can learn to build them.I not convinced 6061 T6 is the automatic alloy of choice, I'd seriously consider 6063 as it is much more malleable for the first 12 months out of the mill and essentially strain hardens AFTER bending into 6061 and it ages into 6061's properties as well.  I've bent a few pipe hand rails on boats and buildings and '63 is less expensive in scrapped/snapped bends.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Originally Posted by BillydkiddDave, for you and, Sundown, there is a very simple answer to both posts...If either of you have the technical skills to weld aluminum there is no reason I can't develop the skills also. Period. My original question simply ask for suggestions on a welder.Billy D. KiddPlano, TX
Reply:And FWIW I would worry less about what kind of welder you get as long as it is a AC/DC TIG. Your first welder will be used mostly for just learning. And you can always just post it on CL and sell it for practically what your got it for and upgrade.Just get that hood down and practice, I wanna see one of these chairs!
Reply:This site is full of naysayers. Don't sweat it dude, just forge ahead. When I was 19 I joined the marines, and everyone laughed at my skinny wimpy *** and said I couldn't do it. 6 years later I left a decorated vet. I took up flying for fun, and everyone thought I was nuts. Pretty soon I was doing competition aerobatics. When I was 26 I started building an all aluminum, 250mph airplane, having never even seen a rivet driven and with no formal instruction. Everyone doubted me, but 12 yrs later that plane is still flying somewhere in MN. At 29 I bought a sport bike, having never ridden before, and within a year was racing professionally and teaching for a race school. A few years ago I bought a chopper, and everyone told me it would be a piece of **** and break down. Well, it did, and I learned to fix it and now I'm building them from scratch. Last month I decided to learn to TIG weld. I bought ( gasp) a Chinese longevity welder, having never seen a TIG welder before. I got it last week, and on my second day brought my practice parts to a professional welder buddy to evaluate. He was blown away by the quality of my welds , and Nobody ever taught me a damn thing besides what I read in books and watched on YouTube. Point is, if you want to do it, you will get it done if you have the guts deep down inside. The rest will just look on and shake their heads and tell you it's impossible.
Reply:Originally Posted by moespeedsThis site is full of naysayers. Don't sweat it dude, just forge ahead.
Reply:I see 2 groups of people, A) those that weld as a means to  build something they are interested it, and B) those that weld just to weld. The problem usually is that group B doesnt think group A takes welding seriously enough. This happens with all forms of skill. On the other hand to be able to make anything but a pile of test coupons, you need other skills. I go back to aviation because I am familiar with it, so take as an example the person that wants to build an airplane from plans. They need to be a sheet metal worker, a welder, an electrician, metalurgist, composite user, a plumber, a mechanic, a woodworker, a painter, know how to sew, etc etc. Are they the best at everything.....no....but you dont have to be consumed by a process to have skill at it, to know what you are doing and why. These guys look to the fanatics of a skill to learn what they need to to do what they want to. To turn them away becuase their intrest in a skill is not the skill itself is silly, especially when they say they WANT to lean new skills.
Reply:I'm in group A.  I just seriously enjoy it.  Never said I was particularly good at it either.  Besides, you'd be crazy to build an airplane if you're only interested in the end result.You build it, because you wanted to build it yourself.  The reward is in the product and the process.I'm just saying that to learn to TIG weld thin aluminum tubing (well enough for it to hold together, let alone look good) is nothing to take lightly, and if you don't enjoy the process, you're likely to be discouraged before you are capable of producing the end product.But, the good news is that there are plenty of very knowledgeable people here looking forward to help, and see progress.  In any case, if you want inspiration, just look up the aluminum sailboat building thread on this board by zeyang.
Reply:Originally Posted by BillydkiddSupe, I have a small budget for getting started and want to buy rather than rent considering this will be—hopefully—a for profit endeavor.There's really not much to tube bending and milling contact areas, and I have a very well stocked wood working shop with saws etc., so the welder will be my biggest expense, and $2200 is not out of the realm of possibilities if I decide to go through with the project.However, I would like to keep the footprint as small as possible, and was hoping to get a welder that could weld tubing without a big power need.Thanks...
Reply:Originally Posted by bassboy1That's provided you are proficient with TIG already.  It isn't something you can buy, practice for a few weeks, then start making wheelchairs with - it's going to take months of practice and many hours spent under the hood before you can begin to undertake any projects that aren't just piddling around.
Reply:I meant to mention that when you see someone weld with the same TIG machine, same settings, same gas, same tungsten that you are having problems with, it often makes it more cut and dry where the problem lies. Someone setting up a new TIG machine might not be confident that he has the machine setup right. And might look to blame the machine rather then his own bad habits.TIG welding is like riding a two wheeler without your training wheels. It seems impossible until you do it well once or twice.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick JrI just hate to count everyone out of making it first time around, or right out of the box. I knew a few guys that had watched for a long time, asked a lot of real questions, never made small talk, and formed realistic ideas about how they were going to weld. And they did very well. They just did it.
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick JrYou will not be bending 6061-T6 tubing anytime soon. It just cracks. You have to bend 6061 in its T-0 state to get small radius bends. Then have the whole chair hardened, after it is welded together. We will do that with hunting perches sometimes.         Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:Originally Posted by BillydkiddDSTEVENS, Please point out the questions I ask that you refer to in your reply. I ask one and only one question, and that was a recommendation on a TIG welder.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIf you are looking to do alum, skip it. It's underpowered. Same with the Diversion 180. Also you don't get the option to adjust your balance on Ac with these and give up a bunch more over say a Syncrowave 200 thats just a bit more at about $2K.
Reply:i know nothing about bending alu, so i wont comment on that.Billy, everyone is recommending the Dynasty because you mentioned you need small foot print.  if cost is a concern, and you're just going to park the welder anyway, just get a Syncrowave 180.  Its older and heavier then the dynasty, but it has enough oomph to do the thickness of the tubing you want to weld, and its still a dependable machine (used at $1200-$1800 depends on age/condiditon).  With a longer torch lead (say 25') that will allow you to park the welder and just move the torch to where you want to weld.water cooled option would be nice, but for the thickness you're welding, you probably dont need it.the guys are right about learning curve of welding aluminum.  Its not impossible, heck i learned how to do it.  but you will have A LOT  of frustrating moments.  I'm not discouraging you, just preparing you for what's to come.  I certainly have had plenty of those frustrating moments.  It would be helpful if you can get someone in your area to at least show you some of the basics, and be able to answer questions without having to wait for the forum (forum is awesome, but some times, you need to know IMMEDIATELY).
Reply:If it's any consolation, my first attempts TIG welding aluminum were with HF on a sinewave transformer machine, and it was an abysmal failure.  The results were SO bad, I was completely discouraged with TIG and aluminum (and just did all of my aluminum welding projects with OA, and reserved TIG for stainless).  Even though I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who could get good results with that setup, it was WAY beyond my reach.The first time I tried my Dynasty 200 on aluminum (before I even got the settings tweaked to where I wanted them) was a highly enlightening experience for me.  The machine can make a big difference in your experience.  I'm not saying the Dynasty is better or worse than the competition (I've got no welding experience with any other inverter welders), but it sure is good.  Having an inverter that produces a truer square wave, and frequencies above 60hz (I tend to run mostly at 120hz), really helps.  The foot pedal and balance control makes a big difference too.
Reply:I would advise against a syncrowave of any size.  They are great machines (we have 2 at the shop) but with your skill level and what you are trying to do, its just going to lead to frustration.  I (along with many others here im sure) would be perfectly comfortable using one on this job, but thats what experience will do.Have we all gone mad?