minor popping when using spray mode with mm252

Tue, 31 Aug 2021 15:34:07 GMT

go to see Welding Machine for minor popping when using spray mode with mm252

have a new mm252 i'm playing with.  having a problem staying in spray mode.  the weld sounds like it's spraying and then i will hear crackling and popping 20% of the time.  i'm just laying beads down to get used to the machine.  3/16 flat steel (home depot...and i didn't take the primer off) using .30 hard wire(Lincoln brand from lowes) and 80/20 Ar-CO2.  20v and 220wire speed. tried pushing and pulling.  i'm thinking it is the primer thats contaminatiing the weld, causing the popping.  by the way...didn't take the primer off because i started to lay the beads at midnight.  no pics yet because my camera is at the office and i'm home.
Reply:1.  Failure to properly prepare your base metal will cause the popping you're experiencing.2.  You have the WRONG gas mix for spray.  A mix with more than 18% CO2 will generally prevent you from achieviing a true spray.  What you're getting is a globular transfer which will cause excessive spatter.3.  The gas you have is fine for short arc transfer.  If you wish to employ spray arc, a good gas choice would be C8 (92%Argon/8%CO2).  Or for a hotter mix you may want to try 98%Argon/2%O2.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Unless you made a typo, you are not in spray transfer at those settings.20% is not typical in the US for sprary.  Most people seem like 15% for that.  Spray transfer requires something like 24-26V.  Spray transfer puts the metal down faster than short arc (you need higher wire feed speed).From the 252 manual, for short arc on 3/8 you should be at 19V and 290 IPM wirespeed.  If you are below 290, there is a region where it will hiss at you with an occasional pop.  I suspect you hit that.Bottom line, I don't think you are spraying ...http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/wire-speed.htm watch the video on that page.On the 252, you can actually turn the dials while you are welding to 'tune it in'.  Set the voltage at 19V, wire feed at 250, and start running a bead and slowly up the wire feed speed until you hear the frying bacon sound.  If it starts sounding like a hammer drill, you've gone too far.BTW, don't buy steel from Home Depot.  Freakin expensive.  Metal suppliers will sell you scrap (and by scrap they mean the leftovers when they cut the steel - so you find things like 2ftx4ft plates ).  They sell it buy the pound.   As for welding supplies.  Start by meeting the fine folks at your local welding supply (LWS).  Home depot stuff doesn't even compare.   They also stock the .035 wire (and drive roles and tips) which is probably more appropriate to a machine like the 252.  Of course the 252 is probably overkill for the hobbyest so maybe .030 is O.K.Last edited by con_fuse9; 10-05-2010 at 02:57 PM.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:BTW, since when did Home Depot start selling primered steel?  I know they sell hot rolled because of all the black mill scale on it.  Perhaps that's what you mean by "primer"?Oh and that 12x12x3/8 plate that Home Depot charges $35 for - that works out to about 2.25/lbs.  Local steel place sells 304 stainless and aluminum for less.  I think the term highway robbery applies.   Should be closer to $10.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:thanks for the replies
Reply:michko,Went back and looked at your older posts.   Seems like you are just starting out.  That 252 is an awesome machine and will do a fine job for you.If you don't have the manual, you can download it from Miller.  I would suggest you at least glance at the safety stuff.   Read the settings stuff carefully.  Again voltage and wirespeed is what you change to affect while your welding.  Stuff about burn-back, crater, hot start, run-in etc. is all about getting the weld started or stopped cleanly.  Leave all that at defaults.Go buy a good auto-darkening helmet.  If you cannot see the wire hitting the weld puddle, you cannot learn to weld.  Pros might be able to weld by smell (joking) but the rest of us need to keep a sharp eye on exactly what is going on.  If you buy a helmet from your LWS, you will know for sure you can get new lens covers etc. whenever they are open.  If your getting up in age (like 40ish) consider getting a helmet where you can get cheater lenses.  Miller Elite and Digital Elite can definitely use them.  Not sure about Jackson or Optrel.I would highly recommend you go buy Miller's student packhttp://www.millerwelds.com/resources/tools/#training   Cheap at $25.Much of the material can be found online, but its sometimes nice having it in hand.  The instructor pack also includes a poster or two including one that purportedly shows MIG welding common mistakes.   I don't know about that, I found it relatively useless.  Save the $10.It is tough learning how to weld if you never had someone show you in person.  You might be able to find a local welder who is willing to give you a lesson or two.  There are videos online that will help.   The guy over on "welding tips and tricks" has a pretty decent collection.  He made a few of his own where he shows gun movement.When you think you are ready, post some pictures of the welds.Good luck and have fun.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:con_fuse9...thanks for the tips.  i already bought a miller digital elite helmet.  wish i had this when i used to stick weld.  my uncle(who is 75) has been welder since he was in his late 20's.  he mostly did stick and tig.   he started to mig when his son started to restore 67-70 Chargers as a hobby.  i've seen his welds, and they look professional. when i started to ask him about spray, short circuit and globular he looked at me like a deer in headlights.  now...last night i was toying around with laying beads on galvanized muffler pipe. please remember that i know the coating has to be taken off for a proper weld. just getting a feel for a steady hand. as the initail puddle formed(initially alot of popping, probably from the galv coating), i started to slowly swirl the puddle and inched forward. all i heard from the weld was a low constant hum w/o popping and it looked like tiny droplets were being deposited at a fast/constant rate. if i moved to fast i started to get the popping and the droplets were irregular.  what does short circuit sound/look like?hopefully i will have the camera this weekend and i can take pics or video.
Reply:As mentioned above, 15% CO2 is generally accepted as the maximum which will allow a spray transfer to be established.  This may be different for modern inverter and/or pulse MIG.  Now to contradict what I just said, here is a reference that lists 5 - 20% CO2 for spray transfrer on steel.http://files.aws.org/wj/2006/02/wj20...j200602-46.pdf
Reply:Originally Posted by pulserAs mentioned above, 15% CO2 is generally accepted as the maximum which will allow a spray transfer to be established.  This may be different for modern inverter and/or pulse MIG.  Now to contradict what I just said, here is a reference that lists 5 - 20% CO2 for spray transfrer on steel.http://files.aws.org/wj/2006/02/wj20...j200602-46.pdf
Reply:Originally Posted by michkonow...last night i was toying around with laying beads on galvanized muffler pipe. please remember that i know the coating has to be taken off for a proper weld. just getting a feel for a steady hand. as the initail puddle formed(initially alot of popping, probably from the galv coating), i started to slowly swirl the puddle and inched forward. all i heard from the weld was a low constant hum w/o popping and it looked like tiny droplets were being deposited at a fast/constant rate. if i moved to fast i started to get the popping and the droplets were irregular.  what does short circuit sound/look like?hopefully i will have the camera this weekend and i can take pics or video.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIII1.  Failure to properly prepare your base metal will cause the popping you're experiencing.2.  You have the WRONG gas mix for spray.  A mix with more than 18% CO2 will generally prevent you from achieviing a true spray.  What you're getting is a globular transfer which will cause excessive spatter.3.  The gas you have is fine for short arc transfer.  If you wish to employ spray arc, a good gas choice would be C8 (92%Argon/8%CO2).  Or for a hotter mix you may want to try 98%Argon/2%O2.
Reply:Originally Posted by ss42768Gas mixes with Oxygen, 2% to 5% will run hotter, but do not confuse this heat with penetration, as a 98% Argon/2% Oxygen, or 95% Argon 5% Oxygen produces shallow penetration. These mixes were developed for thin materials, flat position, and allow the operator to haul ***. but are the last mixes I would use on thicker materials   (1/4" and up) If you want a decent all around gas for both short circuit, and spray, I'd use an 85% Argon 15% Co2, I use this mix on an MM212 and have been very happy with it.
Reply:ss42768,Regarding your comments, are they based on actual "experience" or what you read in a book somewhere?If you notice in my signature, I employ both the Thermco and Smith mixers for blending my own gas mixes.  My comments come from "presonal experience" and are backed up in numerous publications.From my experience, there is no gas mix that performs WELL in both short arc and spray.  C15 (85%Argon/15%CO2) is surely not the solution.  It is not an ideal short arc mix (needs more CO2) for wetout and not a good spray mix since the 15% concentration of CO2 is approaching the range where the CO2 will prevent spray and force the machine into a globular transfer mode.Your comments about using 98%Argon/2%O2 on thin material in a spray mode lead me to question whether you even understand the spray process in the first place.  Spray transfer, by its very nature, is a high energy/high dispositon process not intended for "thin" material in the first place.  GMAW-P (Pulsed Spray) opens some doors regarding thinner material and out of positon welding but that's another whole story.  The 98%Argon/2%O2 is one of my "preferred mixes" when using GMAW-P on thinner material as it gives excellent "wetout".Your comment about C15 being a good "all around" gas mix, reminds me of the "motorsailer" in marine circles.  To the knowledgeable guys in the industry the term "motorsailer" describes a boat that doesn't sail very well and is a terrible motoryacht.Furthermore, your comments about C15 performing well in spray with an MM212 also "raises eyebrows".  While the MM212 is a great short arc MIG machine, it lacks the ba11s to be considered a serious spray arc welder.  It will go into spray, but few "in the know" would consider it for serious spray arc welding.My Thermco mixer produces a very accurate gas mix (even more accurate than the Smith mixer).  I have run samples of different mixes rangeing from 5% CO2 to 20% CO2.  That's where the 92%Argon/8%CO2 recommendation for spray arc came from.  These test samples have been run on both the MM251 and the XMT304 w/714 feeder (both of which are easily capable of a true "spray arc").The 98%Ar/2%O2 recommendation comes from running that mix on the XMT304 w/714 feeder, using an Optima 304 Pulser, to achieve GMAW-P.For the OP, given his equipment and apparent experience level, he's better off with two bottles of gas.  One of C25 for short arc, and one of C8 for spray.You can keep selling that C15 in your store as an "all purpose gas", but those who actually weld, rather than reading books, know there's no such thing as "one" best mix.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIFor the OP, given his equipment and apparent experience level, he's better off with two bottles of gas.  One of C25 for short arc, and one of C8 for spray..
Reply:Con_FuseLOLNotice I didn't even discuss the fact that the OP wasn't even close in V/WFS to what he needs for spray arc.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by con_fuse9Actually, it was the OP's 6th post on the forums and the others were about what gas to buy.  In other posts he said he had C25, this topic he said 20%.  In his last post he said he was welding on exhaust pipe (like 18 gauge?)...Basically he's all over the map.  Trying to walk/run before he can crawl.And if he's not 'taking us for a ride' he just dropped $3500 or so into all this equipment.The OP should get one gas, actually stick to whatever he has, C25 or 20%, and run one good bead on a piece of flat steel (something thicker than 14 gauge).   Until he does that, everything else is a waste of time.
Reply:michko,I would strongly recommend you go to Miller's site (millerwelds.com) and look under the resources tab.  There you will find an offer for their "Student Pack".  This "pack" includes an excellent manual on GMAW, an excellent Tig Handbook, and a handbook on GMAW-P, plus a bunch of other goodies like welding calculators.  Best $25 you'll ever spend on welding materials.The GMAW handbook will answer 90% of the basic questions you may have about Mig welding.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIImichko,I would strongly recommend you go to Miller's site (millerwelds.com) and look under the resources tab.  There you will find an offer for their "Student Pack".  This "pack" includes an excellent manual on GMAW, an excellent Tig Handbook, and a handbook on GMAW-P, plus a bunch of other goodies like welding calculators.  Best $25 you'll ever spend on welding materials.The GMAW handbook will answer 90% of the basic questions you may have about Mig welding.
Reply:I've read weld reality's ramblings.  Some good advice in there but a lot of theorizing too.  Take it with a grain of salt.I use 98/2 argon/oxygen for spray and pulsed spray in the Millermatic 350P.  The machine is designed to use with 90/10 argon/CO2 in both modes, but the 98/2 works fine for me.  Sundown, Miller tech service told me 95/5 argon/CO2 is an excellent pulse steel mix for the 350P, as well as the XMT with Optima pulser.  Just thought I'd pass that along to you to experiment with on your XMT/Optima.I use 75/25 and 85/15 argon/CO2 for short arc.  Both work well.  The 85/15 is a bit cleaner with the Millermatic 175, which has a rather stiff arc.  The HTP likes the 75/25 and runs clean with it.  The HTP has a softer arc than the MM175.Straight CO2 works excellent with the Millermatic Passport, actually better than 85/15 mix gas.  The Passport is special in that way though, it was designed to run on straight CO2.  Mostly, I use it with self shield fluxcore wire.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by ss42768Gas mixes with Oxygen, 2% to 5% will run hotter, but do not confuse this heat with penetration, as a 98% Argon/2% Oxygen, or 95% Argon 5% Oxygen produces shallow penetration. These mixes were developed for thin materials, flat position, and allow the operator to haul ***. but are the last mixes I would use on thicker materials   (1/4" and up) If you want a decent all around gas for both short circuit, and spray, I'd use an 85% Argon 15% Co2, I use this mix on an MM212 and have been very happy with it.
Reply:goin to practice all weekend. just replaced my buddy's suspension on his truck and i kept the old track arm and control arms.  have time to sand them to bare metal and will run beads.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIss42768,Regarding your comments, are they based on actual "experience" or what you read in a book somewhere?If you notice in my signature, I employ both the Thermco and Smith mixers for blending my own gas mixes.  My comments come from "presonal experience" and are backed up in numerous publications.From my experience, there is no gas mix that performs WELL in both short arc and spray.  C15 (85%Argon/15%CO2) is surely not the solution.  It is not an ideal short arc mix (needs more CO2) for wetout and not a good spray mix since the 15% concentration of CO2 is approaching the range where the CO2 will prevent spray and force the machine into a globular transfer mode.Your comments about using 98%Argon/2%O2 on thin material in a spray mode lead me to question whether you even understand the spray process in the first place.  Spray transfer, by its very nature, is a high energy/high dispositon process not intended for "thin" material in the first place.  GMAW-P (Pulsed Spray) opens some doors regarding thinner material and out of positon welding but that's another whole story.  The 98%Argon/2%O2 is one of my "preferred mixes" when using GMAW-P on thinner material as it gives excellent "wetout".Your comment about C15 being a good "all around" gas mix, reminds me of the "motorsailer" in marine circles.  To the knowledgeable guys in the industry the term "motorsailer" describes a boat that doesn't sail very well and is a terrible motoryacht.Furthermore, your comments about C15 performing well in spray with an MM212 also "raises eyebrows".  While the MM212 is a great short arc MIG machine, it lacks the ba11s to be considered a serious spray arc welder.  It will go into spray, but few "in the know" would consider it for serious spray arc welding.My Thermco mixer produces a very accurate gas mix (even more accurate than the Smith mixer).  I have run samples of different mixes rangeing from 5% CO2 to 20% CO2.  That's where the 92%Argon/8%CO2 recommendation for spray arc came from.  These test samples have been run on both the MM251 and the XMT304 w/714 feeder (both of which are easily capable of a true "spray arc").The 98%Ar/2%O2 recommendation comes from running that mix on the XMT304 w/714 feeder, using an Optima 304 Pulser, to achieve GMAW-P.For the OP, given his equipment and apparent experience level, he's better off with two bottles of gas.  One of C25 for short arc, and one of C8 for spray.You can keep selling that C15 in your store as an "all purpose gas", but those who actually weld, rather than reading books, know there's no such thing as "one" best mix.
Reply:Sundown. PM Sent