Quick background: Adult male, mid-late 30's, worked in IT for a number of years, hated it, chasing a rainbow to make large metal, "public" sculptures, decided Ground 0 of that dream was to take a welding class. Hooray! Had one local, even qualified for an education grant due to having been out of action a year + because of illness. The good: The class was very affordable (local technical college) and the people, as far as the other students, are fantastic. I was worried that being 'the old man' would pose problems but there are a number of adult students not too far away from my range and thankfully, every single person in the class, young and old, is good natured and very easy to get along with. The bad: The instructors themselves are great guys, but we are in the middle of a total curriculum change, shifting over from an outdated thing that required dozens of books to a new, streamlined program that requires one book. The two newest-newcomers (myself and another guy) are the guinea-pigs, there are clearly a lot of kinks to work out. The ugly: The shop teachers are welding guys. They're not curriculum developers, they're great technical instructors but they're not versed in the stuff a classroom teacher developing an academic curriculum on-the-fly is expected to do (nor should they be, its not their job). Conversely, the people in administration are not welding instructors, so they're saddling them with all sorts of academic demands and rules without giving them any curriculum development support (and passing the buck off onto 'state requirements', which may or may not be horse****). The net result is that our final OCP tests amount to random factoid questions across huge ranges of different book chapters that would require hundreds of classroom hours to acquire and retain, even though our hours regime is hands-on shop based (as it should be. If they think that they're going to get these guys to sit in a class for hundreds of hours learning this dross, their dropout rate will be stone-cold one hundred percent. People who take welding classes aren't cut from that cloth, it just is what it is)They'll figure it all out eventually but in the meantime, we have guys who are committing years of their lives that are about to crash and burn because we have pilots working as mechanics and mechanics flying the plane. Has anyone ever dealt with this before in a welding program and does anyone have any suggestions on how to broach the issue? I do have 'be a monumental *******' at my disposal but I'd really, really rather avoid that unless needed. I also don't want any **** rolling downhill onto the instructors, who I believe are getting shafted on just as badly as we are. Sorry for the long post.Last edited by FNG; 11-13-2015 at 01:06 PM.
Reply:Warning: cynical hobbyist weldor.It is my understanding that the real test is how your weld coupons fare when the are cut and bent. That will control what certifications you will earn.If your goal is to sell pretty and/or thought-provoking objects, then learn to weld properly and to [heck] with the bull-oney.The youngsters that are going the full course won't be allowed to crash-and-burn. The administration will start to pull their heads out of their a---- before disaster strikes. Its in their pocketbook's best interest.Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.Welders:2008 Lincoln 140 GMAW&FCAW2012 HF 165 'toy' GTAW&SMAW1970's Cobbled together O/A
Reply:Id tell the powers to be, Im not going to spend my money for hundreds of class room hours. That I came there for shop time!But the book work side of welding is very important too! Our state structural welding tests also has a written test. Oh sure its very simple questions, but you have to pass it to get your state welding card.Dont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Go to the office of the dean of student affairs, or the department head that includes the welding program. Be polite, professional, punctual for the appointment. Explain that you're not getting value for your time and money spent. Ask for your money back. Be prepared to be soothed and sent packing. Walk away and find another program.If you want to make a huge stink; threaten to report them to whatever state government agency accredits and monitors their curriculum. If they lose accreditation they'll lose the ability to offer federal student grants and loans. But know in advance the time and effort you spend on spiking their wheels won't be worth it in the long run.My advice. Cut your losses. You're getting shafted, but then life isn't fair. If you're wasting your time, walk away; and enroll at another school with a better program.Good luck.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Hello FNG, first off, I feel your pain, now to a few things that might explain some of the frustrations you are facing and likely for the instructors that you are dealing with as well. Education as a whole is run by essentially 2 entities, neither of which are "generally" vocationally oriented nor have that type of background. State and federal legislators and lawmakers are the ones holding the purse strings, they dictate who gets what, what it will be applied to and how it will be doled out. A large majority of these folks are not vocationally savvy nor have they had much real hands-on application or experience in a trade. The same sort of scenario applies to a large majority of school administrators, thus the bosses of your welding instructors, as I believe you eluded to, don't know how to actually operate an educational program of these types. Your instructors are likely being given all of these guidelines for how their program "should" operate based on a whole lot of information that is poorly based and even worse, not a tried and true recipe for success and as you also surmised, developed by folks who are not of vocational backgrounds. When you consider vocational programs such as welding there are generally 2 types: one will be an open entry/open exit type of program and I believe that a majority are of this type. The second is a fall start, consecutive quarter type of approach. At the school where I work we follow the first example, we are also involved in industry training across a number of different disciplines, we do supplemental training for other disciplines within our own school (think automotive, diesel/heavy equipment, machinists, manufacturing technology, electricians, and the list goes on). As well, we deal with hobbyist, artists, etc. Due to this type of service model our classes are populated by 8 different classes at any one time. This is not conducive to a lot of lecture opportunities in a large group setting so we will often split various groups off while the lab is running and one of us (we have multiple instructors) will host a lecture section on a specific topic or area of instruction. Not the best type of delivery model for theory but still one that generally works well. A lot of the theory that needs to be covered for individuals will be done so on a 1 on 1 basis while lab is in session. We are "floating" around in the lab and checking on individuals continually and assessing, critiquing, making suggestions, and giving demonstrations singularly or performing small group hands-on instruction during the course of the lab. We assign book work that is generally done outside of lab time and will also discuss questions on this homework at any time that we are in contact with our students. We encourage group work on these assignments with the caveat that they understand that copying someone else to do well on an assignment won't help them when they leave our doors and the real test of their success in our classes is what they leave the program with, both in the way of welding skills and of the theoretical knowledge. There are also many other important skills that they should leave with too, mostly life skills and those skill that are relative to work ethic.As to the second method of delivery for welding: fall-starts with a specific cohort of students dealing with a specific grouping of skills would be ideal in my view. This allows for a much more in-depth and intense focused training regimen. Unfortunately, most public schools that deliver vocational training cannot follow this model unless they have a continual and over-abundant supply of candidates for entrance into their programs and their localities and service audiences can work with that sort of system. When this is the model you will not have the flexibility to allow for spot training for industry (unless that sort of provision is included and generally it would not be), you will generally not have the allowances to provide supplemental training for other programs on the campus and you will not have an allowance for hobbyist, artists, and other similarly intended students. The negatives for this sort of approach to teaching welding and other vocational programs is not one that is disagreeable to most vocational instructors, yet, it is generally disallowed by their administrations and administrators for a numbers game that they most always play with the state educational boards and the legislators. Back to your situation, if you feel that you can share your thoughts on this issue with your instructors I believe it would be in everyone's better interest if you had that conversation. Attempt to get a feel for where they are at with what is being pushed onto them and whether they feel that they can provide you with the necessary "hands-on skills" while you have conversations with them on the theory end. Even if the structure according to administration is one thing, you may be able to work out something with them, even if it is singular to you, to address shortcomings that you perceive. Likely these instructors are very good at both conveying the welding in the lab as well as conversing during this delivery to address important theory requirements. Welding theory in the last 30 to 40 years has grown exponentially, yet, much of this information should not be considered as required memory based content. Instead understanding how to access this information is of more importance. If you can glean the basic skills and theory from your instructors and also develop a system for acquiring additional information as you need it, you will be well on your way to a successful career in the trades. I could likely yap quite a bit more, yet you've likely already lost interest in this windy reply. I do hope that things get better for your experiences in your program, do try to be patient and tolerant. Good luck and best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:If you're the guinea pig you may get best results for yourself and fellow students by at least trying to change things before you cut your losses and leave- if those details can be changed quickly. You don't need to start out with a scorched earth response, but you can still warm up the environment a bit. I'd say, get an appointment as high up in the administration you can, and explain what's going on down in the trenches- your explanation may be their first inkling that something is wrong. Be polite, be reasonable, don't throw anyone under the bus, but explain that things are going south quickly and that students and faculty will leave.I was going to end with "figure out a way to take your grant with you if you have to leave" but that's just another arrow in your quiver: just as a school does not want to lose accreditation, they don't want a poor reputation out there in grant-land. Good luck with it!
Reply:Since it seems you are there to get knowledgeable on welding and not interested in a cert, I'd just lay back and get all the shop time you can and let the chips fall where they may. This is orwuming you arew just there for the welding experience.ChrisAuction Addict
Reply:Originally Posted by milomiloSince it seems you are there to get knowledgeable on welding and not interested in a cert, I'd just lay back and get all the shop time you can and let the chips fall where they may. This is orwuming you arew just there for the welding experience.
Reply:FNG if all else fails, post your location. Maybe there is a member close to you that will give you some one on one instruction. Ive helped several people with their welding. Ive had guys come to my house off the job. With in 3 to 4 Saturdays they past the state structural welding test.Dont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:FNG,My son went through a lot of welding and machining classes at a local community college. Finally got his AAS degree recently. After a number of years, I finally went to meet his welding instructor just before he retired. We talked for 4 hours about stuff you mentioned. 4 hours. And no beer. The higher-ups were promoting "academics" and stuff like nursing aid programs. Certify kids to change bed pans. They had no clue about arcs and sparks or machining or millwrights. There was a lady engineer in the department who was quite competent, but the higher-ups didn't give a crap. Don't know much about the new guy who came in for welding, but it seemed like he may be full of himself. Saw some good and relatively new equipment auctioned off shortly thereafter. This was after a complete shop rebuild/refurb, not prior. I need to get back down to the college and see what they are doing. The old instructor carried a hammer that he threatened to throw at any student who ran away from an O/A burnback without shutting it off. "USMCPOP" First-born son: KIA Iraq 1/26/05Syncrowave 250 w/ Coolmate 3Dialarc 250, Idealarc 250SP-175 +Firepower TIG 160S (gave the TA 161 STL to the son)Lincwelder AC180C (1952)Victor & Smith O/A torchesMiller spot welder
Reply:OK CEP, is the coffee going to be on and will the beer be cold (2 very important points). That sounds like an invitation I might have to come up and take you up on. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldOK CEP, is the coffee going to be on and will the beer be cold (2 very important points). That sounds like an invitation I might have to come up and take you up on. Best regards, Allan
Reply:This is the way most schools are going. They want more accredidaition which means more book smart people and less real world skill people.Millermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:Originally Posted by mike837goIt is my understanding that the real test is how your weld coupons fare when the are cut and bent. That will control what certifications you will earn.
Reply:If the instructors care about their students they're the ones who should be looking out for them and fighting the administration over all the BS. That said, there needs to theory involved in any welding course. That's why there can be long drawn out discussions on this very forum that some people just can't understand because all they know is how to strike an arc.
Reply:Some art schools, like RISD, for example, offer metal sculpture classes. I took one there about 20 years ago, and they taught O/A welding, GMAW (short arc), and SMAW .Plus, you got some sculpture projects to create with each process. You won't be the most knowledgeable or qualified welder when you finish, but it may be just enough for you to accomplish what you're looking for.Rich
Reply
ifficult situation! Just go with the flow. Being a Welding Engineer, Inspector, Tester, and Educator myself. Change is difficult. Most schools are not really equipped to instruct at any higher of a level than fundamental learning. Do some research and go to your local Hobart, Miller, or Lincoln dealer/distributors. They are a wealth of knowledge and will put you on the right path. These forums are great too. Look up Jody's Welding Tips and Tricks. If you're into the more artistic side of the trade (which is booming). You only need to learn the basics anyway. If you do you own work certification is not necessary. Unless required by the buyer for a load bearing or structural project. There's more but I'm tired of typing. Please, message me if you would like some good help! I can look your area up and give you some guidance if needed. When I have some free time that is. Good luck!Jed Brownley
Reply:I've been there and done that- new pilot school program. From what I learned - I would run like he/l away from that. You will wAste your money and time. Do yourself a favor and find another school/ program.
Reply:Originally Posted by FNGQuick background: Adult male, mid-late 30's, worked in IT for a number of years, hated it, chasing a rainbow to make large metal, "public" sculptures, decided Ground 0 of that dream was to take a welding class. Hooray! Had one local, even qualified for an education grant due to having been out of action a year + because of illness. The good: The class was very affordable (local technical college) and the people, as far as the other students, are fantastic. I was worried that being 'the old man' would pose problems but there are a number of adult students not too far away from my range and thankfully, every single person in the class, young and old, is good natured and very easy to get along with. The bad: The instructors themselves are great guys, but we are in the middle of a total curriculum change, shifting over from an outdated thing that required dozens of books to a new, streamlined program that requires one book. The two newest-newcomers (myself and another guy) are the guinea-pigs, there are clearly a lot of kinks to work out. The ugly: The shop teachers are welding guys. They're not curriculum developers, they're great technical instructors but they're not versed in the stuff a classroom teacher developing an academic curriculum on-the-fly is expected to do (nor should they be, its not their job). Conversely, the people in administration are not welding instructors, so they're saddling them with all sorts of academic demands and rules without giving them any curriculum development support (and passing the buck off onto 'state requirements', which may or may not be horse****). The net result is that our final OCP tests amount to random factoid questions across huge ranges of different book chapters that would require hundreds of classroom hours to acquire and retain, even though our hours regime is hands-on shop based (as it should be. If they think that they're going to get these guys to sit in a class for hundreds of hours learning this dross, their dropout rate will be stone-cold one hundred percent. People who take welding classes aren't cut from that cloth, it just is what it is)They'll figure it all out eventually but in the meantime, we have guys who are committing years of their lives that are about to crash and burn because we have pilots working as mechanics and mechanics flying the plane. Has anyone ever dealt with this before in a welding program and does anyone have any suggestions on how to broach the issue? I do have 'be a monumental *******' at my disposal but I'd really, really rather avoid that unless needed. I also don't want any **** rolling downhill onto the instructors, who I believe are getting shafted on just as badly as we are. Sorry for the long post.
Reply:I agree with the last two gentlemen. Yet, if your state is like the state in which I reside. There is a cut-off point where you have a certain amount of time to join a program and leave without having to pay the full amount of said course. Doing so after that date would just put you in financial burden. So my suggestion if you can't afford to leave the school and find another. Stick it out. After you gain what you've gained from that school. Either gain more experience by going to another institution. Or take it upon yourself to get a machine and practice, look on good sites for knowledge, and practice some more. Surround yourself with knowledgable Welders, and engineers. You will learn everything you need!
Reply:Unfortunately, there are no 'other programs' available, save for a TWS, which is located a bit too far away and doesn't fit my needs. It isn't my nature to 'walk away', so I may be in for a fight. I'll post any updates here. Thanks all for the great advice so far (and yes, this is probably a pretty good example of bureaucracy meddling in something where it has no place)
Reply:I've always thought the classroom side of vocational training should be directly related to what students are working on in the shop at the time. Learn about it then go do it yourself in an applicable setting or situation. When I've hired newly trained welding students I was looking for solid fundamental skills and knowledge. Then we could train them to do the job the way we want it done.
Reply:There isn't too much fundamental skill and knowledge for welding that isn't already in the high school curriculum. 9th graders are supposed to already know about Ohm's Law, how Volts times Amps equals Watts, and all that. It's not like we're back in the day where you didn't get any science classes until the 10th grade, and if you were lucky got to take physics your senior year.I guess it all depends on how much knowledge of metallurgy you expect?Currently working as a Paralegal, but still interested in hobby welding.Miller Bobcat 225ntOne- Character Fractions: ¼ ½ ¾ ⅛ ⅜ ⅝ ⅞
Reply:FNG, I have limited experience with academia, being a college drop out and nearly illiterate (at least that's what I'm told) so my remarks may be useless and I'll trust you to ignore them.Fact of life in the trades is that reference material is 100% always available to the tradesman in the field. NO, I don't mean the a huge library of weld specs and facts travels with a cross country pipeline job, what I mean is that given the internet, engineering references, weld specs and contractor's need to uphold all these Standards, there are not times in a welders legitimate work that he's denied or refused access to the 'facts' in the various reference books. Simply put anyone can find the answer to any question due to the huge volume of published welding info now available. (Note: I didn't mean that the references are all crystal clear, just that they exist and they're readily available- look at the number of them we see posted here- as an example?) What about getting your instructors, the welding background guys, to go 'upstairs' with the idea that the references should be available to anyone taking the test? (open book tests) I hold a few licenses (State of AK) and all the tests allowed, those being tested, to bring references to the test and look up the applicable 'code'. (AWS; ASTM; IBC;B31.3; whatever ) The electrical contractor test allows this, the mechanical contractor's test allows this and so do many, many other State license (qualifications in AK my reference) tests.The idea (to advance) is for the instructors to teach WHERE to figure out/find/look up/discover/reason out an answer in the accepted references; not to require memorization. (Memorize the Code's guide/index/contents not the whole Code) The instructors would go to the less informed, higher ranking 'educators' (or whatever you'd like to call them?) and show that the tests on facts could be taken with open book provisions so you'd demonstrate your ability to solve problems; not retain un-used detail factoids.I realize the nature of some people who seek admin jobs in this field are less than open-minded but... short of finding some other more realistically planned training I'm not sure what else you can do? The instructors seem to me, would welcome this compromise suggestion? They'd train on where to find the answers to general topics, the students will be able to use the training when they go to the real world work of welding and the burden to memorize for hundreds of hours (non functional time use really) is avoided?cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:Kevin in my line of work it was a requirement to have an engineer on site. Oh I dont mean a PE, just someone with an engineering degree. If he / she couldnt answer our questions. He / she would write an RFI, (Request For Information) to the engineer of record. Generally with in 24-hours we had an answer. Dont pay any attention to meIm just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400You know for not being literate I found the last a good read. I have to say this is one of the main reasons I've become an instructor and CWI. It's important to me to have more skilled of a welder in the field. Yes, I will give the student all the options in testing in whatever position or material I can. But in that time I believe giving that welder more usable information is more important than memorizing unused information in the field. That being said, if a student comes in and wants more or I feel has potential for more. I will give them all I can to have them understand as much as they can. I'm easy, it all depends on where the individual sees theirselves in the next year. I base my plans for the students on each of their needs and as a collective also. If a class is boring (and I communicate often) I change things up on the fly to meet the needs of the group. It sounds difficult but if you love your job as I do. It's too easy and I wish I could do more and continually educate myself so I can better inform others on interesting and useful information and get in that booth as soon as I can because hands on is the best way. Class room takes alway from the skill needed to get so many variables right.? So thanks for that last post! It was very informative and useful. JedBy the way I used to be stationed in Alaska. 06-13 Fairbanks so have fun in the Negatives man.
