1/7 rule for dummies

Tue, 31 Aug 2021 09:44:28 GMT

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How would one go about using the 1/7 rule for an oxy/acet set up, if they had no idea in the first place? Like a '1/7 rule for dummies.'It's my understanding you have to find out the CFH (cubic feet per hour) of the tank you have first? If that's correct, how do you do that exactly? Is it the same for both oxy and acet? Is there a math equation, stamp on the tank or a chart somewhere?On the opposite end of that question, how do you figure out the draw rate of a torch in order to know that it applies within the 1/7 rule? Are there numbers to look for when shopping? If so, how would you spot them or know where to look for them, specifically.And in the middle, (quality and brand name aside) will any regulator that fits your tanks properly going to work for whatever torch you have? I would think there were some differences outside of the fittings and threads, but IDK. Does one need to figured regs into the 1/7 rule somehow too? If so, how would one determine that relationship?I'm trying to understand and organize in my head, the cluttered up info I've accumulated from the internet. Hopin' someone could help me understand things better? Take care and have a good one.
Reply:Originally Posted by MakinitHow would one go about using the 1/7 rule for an oxy/acet set up, if they had no idea in the first place? Like a '1/7 rule for dummies.'It's my understanding you have to find out the CFH (cubic feet per hour) of the tank you have first? If that's correct, how do you do that exactly? Is it the same for both oxy and acet? Is there a math equation, stamp on the tank or a chart somewhere?On the opposite end of that question, how do you figure out the draw rate of a torch in order to know that it applies within the 1/7 rule? Are there numbers to look for when shopping? If so, how would you spot them or know where to look for them, specifically.And in the middle, (quality and brand name aside) will any regulator that fits your tanks properly going to work for whatever torch you have? I would think there were some differences outside of the fittings and threads, but IDK. Does one need to figured regs into the 1/7 rule somehow too? If so, how would one determine that relationship?I'm trying to understand and organize in my head, the cluttered up info I've accumulated from the internet. Hopin' someone could help me understand things better? Take care and have a good one.
Reply:I always thought it was just a matter of taking the reading on the gauge on the meter and dividing it by 7 and subtracting 1/7 from the total number on the gauge and stop using the acetylene when the gauge reads 1/7th less in the tank.Lincoln, ESAB, Thermal Dynamics, Victor, Miller, Dewalt, Makita, Kalamzoo.  Hand tools, power tools, welding and cutting tools.
Reply:Originally Posted by Pete.S.Nowadays it's actually 1/10, not 1/7.But it doesn't matter much. If you don't have acetone spitting in your flame, your good.That's the only thing that would happen if you draw too much.Otherwise the rule is: don't put a big *** torch on a small *** tank.
Reply:Well, most manufactures have charts listing the flow rates of their various tips at their respective range of pressures. You have to have those on hand and be familiar withg or refer to them. Next you need to know the cubic foot capacity of the tank you are using. After that it is simple math. Divide you tank capacity by 7 (or 10 ) and compare that with your tip and desired settings."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:This little video has a hickup-double play in it. Kinda like the 78's used to do. "The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:It's the size of your tank divided by 7 (or 10), that is the max safe flow rate. A 150 cu ft tank would support a max flow rate of roughly 21 cu ft per hour. So a rosebud that draws 55 cu ft/hr would NOT be safe to run on a 150 cu ft tank. It could possibly draws acetone out of the tank, which would damage your regulator or worse.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:Basically, don't put a rosebud on an O/A set.You can acheive 99% of whatever you want to acheive with a good quality torch and a 3/32" ANM nozzle. I've never felt the need to buy a rosebud.
Reply:Being a non pro welder I have never used my rosebud and just use my cutting torch for heating and bending.
Reply:Originally Posted by Louie1961It's the size of your tank divided by 7 (or 10), that is the max safe flow rate. A 150 cu ft tank would support a max flow rate of roughly 21 cu ft per hour. So a rosebud that draws 55 cu ft/hr would NOT be safe to run on a 150 cu ft tank. It could possibly draws acetone out of the tank, which would damage your regulator or worse.
Reply:My torches are Smiths and Miller publishes a small handbook that they will send you on request or you can download it here:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...DeM7DMYVxPHAXJAnd I believe it is packed with new equipment.  At any rate it shows the recommended operating pressures and maximum gas volumes for every tip and torch they make for oxygen, acetylene, propylene and propane.LanceMultimatic 255 w/MDX-250 EZ-Select gunHypertherm Powermax45 XPHeck Bevel Mill 4000Miller/Smith heavy duty torch set9" Evolution circular saw
Reply:Originally Posted by MunkulBasically, don't put a rosebud on an O/A set.You can acheive 99% of whatever you want to acheive with a good quality torch and a 3/32" ANM nozzle. I've never felt the need to buy a rosebud.
Reply:Originally Posted by MunkulBasically, don't put a rosebud on an O/A set.You can acheive 99% of whatever you want to acheive with a good quality torch and a 3/32" ANM nozzle. I've never felt the need to buy a rosebud.
Reply:To be fair, I dont.We do a bit of flat bar bending around jigs for odds and ends but probably 50x10 flat would be the biggest I've ever needed to bend.
Reply:Originally Posted by MunkulTo be fair, I dont.We do a bit of flat bar bending around jigs for odds and ends but probably 50x10 flat would be the biggest I've ever needed to bend.
Reply:AND.....as the cylinder is used, the initial cu. ft.  figure you came up with on withdrawal will decline as the cylinder empties.  For the utmost safety with acetylene using a rosebud, manifold multiple cylinders together and open them all so that the tip you're using will be supplied the volume of gas it needs to do the job correctly and safely.  Do all people do it?...No.  Just depends on how much you value your life.
Reply:Thanks! You all answered a few questions I didn't even mention. That helped a lot! Including the 1/10 rule, thanks for updating me on that one. What about the regs? Should I be too concerned about that choice? Anything to focus on there? Looking at the kits, I often see 'regs - 0384-2692 (2691 or 2541 or 2544 etc) Been curious if that's something else I need to understand before selecting a torch kit? BWS told me any of them would do. I've been wrong before, but that broad sweep of an answer didn't seem right to me when there are some sort of differences there. IDK?
Reply:I suggest you choose equipment and tanks based on what you will primarily be doing. If you feel that a rosebud may be necessary,buy one that fit's your torch to handle propane. There is no 10 to 1 rule with propane.  The worst that can happen is pressure get's too low in tank to sustain a large flame but that require's a long session in cold weather. The price of a tip and $20 grill bottle(if you don't have one already) should be worth peace of mind in not having to worry about it.
Reply:Originally Posted by MakinitThanks! You all answered a few questions I didn't even mention. That helped a lot! Including the 1/10 rule, thanks for updating me on that one. What about the regs? Should I be too concerned about that choice? Anything to focus on there? Looking at the kits, I often see 'regs - 0384-2692 (2691 or 2541 or 2544 etc) Been curious if that's something else I need to understand before selecting a torch kit? BWS told me any of them would do. I've been wrong before, but that broad sweep of an answer didn't seem right to me when there are some sort of differences there. IDK?
Reply:Thanks txpitdog, I did find the torch kit you mentioned having. And have been kinda targeting that set since. But was still confused by the numbers and regs and making sure I understand the 1/7 (1/10) rule enough to feel confident with the smaller tanks. I am getting a much better grasp on this now, thanks to all the patient and helpful people here, like yourself. Hoping to avoid those PITA adapters also - main reason to know what I'm getting 1st. Would be my luck to get the wrong ones. How do you like the edge regs? I see that on some of the newer ones, they're went with a larger output gauge. I'll admit I was stuck on the classic style for better visibility and mainly because it's what I know (familiar). And I assume it's easier to find, buy & replace a faulty gauge in, than the edge set? Mine will be chained in cart too, but I do like that the edge has safety features compared to classic type. The T-bar style knob/valve has always been great on my other equipment. One concern with the Edge regs was the knobs being slick or on the small side for arthritic hands that have good and bad days. How do you like yours? Do they turn easy enough with gloves on? Thanks!
Reply:Jax, thanks, great idea! Late last night I was wondering if that would be better? How long would your average BBQ propane last? I have several that I use for torching weeds etc. That thing will empty it quick and freeze the tank up if I'm not paying attention. But I imagine there's a pretty big difference in the draw rate of a rosebud torch? What if I found a used handle on C.List or something and had a dedicated torch set just for rose bud use? would that be worth time I'd save in switching over and wear on threads/seats? I do have a HF torch, can that be used or converted or does it need to be FOR propane specifically?
Reply:Originally Posted by MakinitThanks txpitdog, I did find the torch kit you mentioned having. And have been kinda targeting that set since. But was still confused by the numbers and regs and making sure I understand the 1/7 (1/10) rule enough to feel confident with the smaller tanks. I am getting a much better grasp on this now, thanks to all the patient and helpful people here, like yourself. Hoping to avoid those PITA adapters also - main reason to know what I'm getting 1st. Would be my luck to get the wrong ones. How do you like the edge regs? I see that on some of the newer ones, they're went with a larger output gauge. I'll admit I was stuck on the classic style for better visibility and mainly because it's what I know (familiar). And I assume it's easier to find, buy & replace a faulty gauge in, than the edge set? Mine will be chained in cart too, but I do like that the edge has safety features compared to classic type. The T-bar style knob/valve has always been great on my other equipment. One concern with the Edge regs was the knobs being slick or on the small side for arthritic hands that have good and bad days. How do you like yours? Do they turn easy enough with gloves on? Thanks!
Reply:The only advantage I can see in having a dedicated handle for the rosebud is if you can buy handle and rosebud cheaper than buying a rosebud for your new Victor(or whatever you settle on).  AS for saving time, wear and tear,you won't save either. It take's longer to switch hoses to other handle than switching tips on handle you use daily. Plus seal and threads on handle are desighned to be constantly changed and require no tool as hose do.  Other than air-acetylene turbo rigs,all the acety regulators,hose and handles I've owned have been used on both acety and propane.  IDK about HF,I don't buy there. Let's step back and look at this for a moment. Is a rosebud something you will use often?  Just how large are the things you need to heat?  90% of the time I do as someone mentioned above,heat to bend with cutting tips since that's normally what's on the handle. If tip is small,bumping oxy handleusually solve's that. On the rare occasion I need to heat several items or a bulky item,I have a cobbled up propane forge.  If you heat a lot of large items,you can make a forge with your weed burner. Your question about how long grill bottles last,through 3 150 cu ft oxygen bottles.
Reply:Maybe I'll wait and see what I can do with the outfit I get before getting into a rosebud then. Mostly wanted one to soften thick/wide band metal for bends to compound curves and sheet metal for shaping. I'd like to build a forge someday, but wasn't thinkin it was in the budget, until Jax said could build one with my weed torch,..hmmm. I'll have a better idea of what I'll be needing if I wait on the rosebud. From what you are all saying, it sounds like I'l be able to do more than I expected with a cutting torch. Won't know until I try. I decided to go with the Victor Journeyman Edge 2.0 540/510, Plus Outfit - 0384-2101. (not sure what the last 4 numbers are) It has the 100FC handle & CA2460 Cutting Attachment. Once I figure out some tips to get with it, I'm whippin' out the ole credit card and gettiner done. Thanks for all the help and extremely valuable advice & info, very much appreciated. I'll be puttin it all to good use soon.
Reply:Originally Posted by MakinitMaybe I'll wait and see what I can do with the outfit I get before getting into a rosebud then. Mostly wanted one to soften thick/wide band metal for bends to compound curves and sheet metal for shaping. I'd like to build a forge someday, but wasn't thinkin it was in the budget, until Jax said could build one with my weed torch,..hmmm. I'll have a better idea of what I'll be needing if I wait on the rosebud. From what you are all saying, it sounds like I'l be able to do more than I expected with a cutting torch. Won't know until I try. I decided to go with the Victor Journeyman Edge 2.0 540/510, Plus Outfit - 0384-2101. (not sure what the last 4 numbers are) It has the 100FC handle & CA2460 Cutting Attachment. Once I figure out some tips to get with it, I'm whippin' out the ole credit card and gettiner done. Thanks for all the help and extremely valuable advice & info, very much appreciated. I'll be puttin it all to good use soon.There are like 4 or 5 different rosebud sizes available.Lincoln, ESAB, Thermal Dynamics, Victor, Miller, Dewalt, Makita, Kalamzoo.  Hand tools, power tools, welding and cutting tools.
Reply:The current Compressed gas association rules for acetylene withdrawal is now 1/10 but only for intermittent work continuous is 1/15https://www.thefabricator.com/articl...fety-knowledge
Reply:I noticed after double checking and looking into ordering those tips like you said, that this kit has the H315FC handle,not the 100FC that I quoted it having. Is this going to be a difference? I looked for a journeyman with 100FC handle, it's just not there. Not sure how I made that mistake going back and forth between pages copy/paste to make sure I got my info correct, but I obviously must have - unless it changed over night. There isn't a single Journeyman outfit (@Baker'sWS) with a 100FC handle in it now. I won't be doing as much heavy work, so don't want to end up with too big of a torch right off. It would be an assumption that I could dial it back and use a smaller tip, even though the 315 has more flow capability? But that's only an assumption, I wouldn't know. I've heard so many good things about the 100fc handle but if it's not going to be that big of a deal, I won't worry about it. Any opinions there? Also noticed the tips don't have even remotely the same #'s as the Victor Charts use, so I'm not sure of what size I'm looking at now. Plus, is there an indicator that it would fit my particular attachment, or are Victor's universal?
Reply:............... I did find that the Victor Performer 540/300 Edge 2.0 MD Acetylene Outfit - 0384-2126 has the 100fc handle and with a big price difference. What would be the obvious differences between this one and the Journeyman? Do you think this would be a good choice despite the smaller gauge faces? I would rather just stick with the Journeyman if it's not going to be a big difference? Seems better quality to me. IDKLast edited by Makinit; 12-21-2018 at 03:52 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by MakinitI noticed after double checking and looking into ordering those tips like you said, that this kit has the H315FC handle,not the 100FC that I quoted it having. Is this going to be a difference? I looked for a journeyman with 100FC handle, it's just not there. Not sure how I made that mistake going back and forth between pages copy/paste to make sure I got my info correct, but I obviously must have - unless it changed over night. There isn't a single Journeyman outfit (@Baker'sWS) with a 100FC handle in it now. I won't be doing as much heavy work, so don't want to end up with too big of a torch right off. It would be an assumption that I could dial it back and use a smaller tip, even though the 315 has more flow capability? But that's only an assumption, I wouldn't know. I've heard so many good things about the 100fc handle but if it's not going to be that big of a deal, I won't worry about it. Any opinions there? Also noticed the tips don't have even remotely the same #'s as the Victor Charts use, so I'm not sure of what size I'm looking at now. Plus, is there an indicator that it would fit my particular attachment, or are Victor's universal?
Reply:I have these things called flash back arresters. They are screwed in line to the base of the torch handle. They are designed to stop flame flash back going down the hoses to the tanks.