Pipe Poll Barn

Tue, 31 Aug 2021 09:00:08 GMT

go to see Welding Machine for Pipe Poll Barn

On another topic there's a discussion of erecting steel building where I'd remarked about building one from surplus pipe/tubing.In many area of the US 2" pipe (2-38" tubing) 2-1/2" pipe (2-7/8" tubing) and 3" (3-1/2" tubing) are available for low cost compared to buying structural steel.  If you were to purchase sched. 80 - L-80 steel it wouldn't make much sense to pay new costs to build a building when much less expensive and just as useful shapes of steel are readily available.But..... if you're long on time and have a welding machine and are interested, here is a look a doing it yourself. There are several keys to this post being useful. #1 the supply of surplus production tubing.  #2 the ability to handle it, cut and weld it into structural trusses.  #3 the lack of interference of officialdom; like building codes, inspectors, and other limitations on freedom of building what you want.Not everyone will have these three conditions, so if you don't this post will be more a curiosity or waste of time, please bear with.First, not everyone needs or can afford a full slab in their new shop.  Still you'd need some basic foundation so here are some thoughts.put a plywood box form together that will knock down and can be re-used.the form is buried at (eventual grade) so you can cast a block of concrete as a post support.  This can be done with a wheel barrow or small mixer to conserve the costs of a ready mix truck, but if they were all buried and ready to go (?) the truck might be a faster answer?Of course, no concrete form proposal or discussion is complete without considering a metal, pre-rolled, (maybe) pre-oiled, alternative form; to cast the building post bases.  These forms are readily available in some areas of the country, often coinciding with the presence of surplus tubing.In each of the post-only concrete images above I'm showing a plate with rebar welded below that is cast into the slab, the base pier or whatever will hold the framing post/columns.Here a red steel plate with rebar welded to the bottom is shown with the eventual column base above it.  By casting the plate into the concrete and welding the column base to the slightly oversized base plate the foundation bolting routine is skipped.Some old Jet rod put in as a down hand, drag fillet, between these two pieces of plate will keep the column in place on most buildings.the concrete surface is not shown in these images to make the parts more clear and less confusing in the pictures.For those who can afford a slab, and will be using a footer as just a slab edge that is thicker, the same plate is shown cast in place.Columns of 3-1/2" pipe would get a little wobbly above 15 feet so double them up.  One shop I help build had no 3-1/2" only 2-7/8 (2-1/2" pipe) so the owner put four posts per column - "Just to be sure".  He'd only paid 0.50$ a foot; so four pipes per post only cost him $2.00 per foot of column and his welding time.   I believe the building is still up and the walls are 25'+ at the eaves.To hang a pipe frame door, use the concentric sizes of the pipes and cut hinges and hinge stops.Of course there are plenty of other ways to make the doors hinge, but this will allow the entire end wall to open up -if that were needed in your barn?To attach purlins that will hold the sheeting, I go to the metal distributor and have them cut hundreds of unequal leg angle 'clip's or L's on their iron worker.  They usually keep the cost to 0.50$ per clip or less if you get a couple of hundred. (green angles)  Do the same with some 3/16" x 4" flat bar (red) and weld them together and drill two to four holes in the red plate.  The angles weld to the outer legs, truss tops, and any where else you'll need to have purlins for sheeting.Next postCheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:To add purlins, roof joists or whatever we call them they lay on the outer pipes and cross lap at the welded on angles.At the ends  you can make the wooden purlins even with the front or back wall purlins surfaces, or overhand as needed for an eave line.  At the intermediate locations just overlap the two 2x8-2x10-2x12 depending on the span or spacing of your frame and loads.  Then climb the outside of the building and using a visegrip to hold the two boards to the steel plate drill for carriage bolts and tighten them up.A quick look at a 20' wall on a 30' wide truss.  Four 14' to 16' bays of pipe will be a nice little building 30' x 40 or so and with enough ceiling or overhead to put some decent equipment inside and strong enough to hoist a decent load.Whether you make the trusses wide or narrow, use lots of pipes for columns of just a few, a well thought out poll barn can be a very low cost means of providing a welding shop.  I started out with the slab but I've added on a few times when I couldn't afford the slab so I've done them both ways.I used to build boats but couldn't afford a boat barn so I had to come up with something; labor was all I had in abundance.  Welding most tubing alloys is pretty easy with LH but I have come to prefer 2% nickel flux core WITH a cover gas and pulsed MIG.  Any way you do it, these barns are simple to build, not that much effort to erect and provide a super low cost (if the pipe is available) way to get some cover for your work.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:There's reason why you don't weld rebar, and never to a plate for the purpose you describe, that's why the use of anchor bolts.  The welds to the bottom of the plate are no substitute for the anchor bolts embedded in concrete.
Reply:you might get away with that for an agricultural building that doesn't require a permit or inspection,but i wouldn't do it.
Reply:First I'd like to thank you for the time you spend in getting all this info compiled together. I think it would really help someone who had never done a barn.I do agree with the other post, the rebar is not a good idea. Most steel building places sell weld plates with studs on them that would work better.I build my own weld plate when doing buildings. I use a 6x6 1/4'' or 3/8'' weld plate, 2''-3'' sq tubing 3' long. I weld the plate to the tubing. Then at the bottom of the sq tube and again about 12''s up I weld fingers on it to hold it in place. These can be 1'' tubing, sold bar, or something like that. This design will never loosen like weld plates can.Dynamic MetalworksMontrose, CODynMetalworks.com
Reply:I wonder if you could use plate to gusset the joining of the tubes instead of cutting all those fishmouths.    You could butt the gussets against the outside of the tube, or you might slit the end of the tube and insert a gusset inside with welds down both sides of the tube.  I wonder how the strength compares to a fishmouthed joint with a weld all around.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:gentlemen,90% (maybe more- 99%??) of what I've posted won't make any building code review, and there are improvements at every turn, all the details can be improved for every aspect of a building. But.... they're up; they've (mine) been up for five decades; and they're still about the cheapest thing a man can do to get shelter: if the conditions are there?  I've heated a couple with some real contraptions; -40F is not conducive to aluminum boat MIG.I've usually cut a hole or ten in the cast plates welded the rebar both sides with LH70 and called it a day. My first one was in 1970's and its been through plenty of local "seismic events" and is still with us today.  The local steel supplier bends rebar for commercial jobs and gives the (literally) tons of shorts (end shears) up for anyone to haul them off.I've hauled a few barrels and welded it into the awfullest looking 'trees' of junk.  But, once again, they've held, they're all standing and for a less than $5 a square foot (???) they're hard to beat for the starting out barn.As to anchors, I've used a yard of pipe and bored a dozen rebars into the pipe and cast that in a barrel, (incidentally as an off point item: this will work as a decent mooring in a few fathoms of salt water too) and a half dozen other methods.  AS noted; gentlemen this is a set of ideas for the man who has the conditions close at hand.If you had a building inspector close enough to know you existed: none of this is possible!But it will work just like I show it here. BryanD, I'd done the sketches some time ago during a discussion with a truly low overhead (boat) builder who wanted to put up a boat barn and had happened on some tube for almost nothing.  Since I'd had some experience being a broke boat builder, who had no barn, and wanted one..... well I had to reply.My post here isn't to encourage anyone to get in trouble: if  you live where there is enough officialdom to care about your life- don't listen to my ideas or you'll likely get cross threaded with those type of folks.In Alaska, and especially rural Alaska, we don't have quite the density inspectors found more commonly in the old country.  I'm writing from a state with a total population less than a single voting district in most folks' areas.  Almost all the inspection types are concentrated in one area and so we just do " the best we can" out here in the trees.If you're close to many others, if you live in a densely populated state: ignore this post! For anyone who lives where there's more room with less officialdom, well, this poll barn can keep the wind off your MIG bead.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:AndyA,you can do exactly as you suggest, but I can't tell the relative strength as my joint analysis math is not up to par.I usually make one set of wrap around for all the pipe 'gores' or fishmouths then just copy them with a plaz or oxy torch.  When there's a pile of one component of the webbing, I usually stop and finish the saddles/fishmouth/gores using a conic concrete stone on a 7" grinder.When they're all clean enough to seat and tack I move on to the next web pieces ends or next joint.  Slit joints will work, because one friend about 25 years ago, and passed to his reward since, did just that. He set up a port-a-band and hand slit the ends of countless webbing pieces and his son used MIG to outside fillet each when the trusses were set up to weld.  Seemed like more work to me, and I've never taken the time to make the gussets and slits, but he did and his 'garage' is standing long after he's 'crossed over the bar'.My idea was the all around saddled fit was stronger because you were welding the two tubes' shells to one another. But, I'm not enough of an engineer to prove that.I have used paired gussets at the 3:00 and 9:00 O'Clock tangents to the pipe to join them and that is plenty strong, but again, I can't give you any (engineering) proof except for my experience and opinion. Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Originally Posted by wannabe_welderThere's reason why you don't weld rebar, and never to a plate for the purpose you describe, that's why the use of anchor bolts.  The welds to the bottom of the plate are no substitute for the anchor bolts embedded in concrete.
Reply:I've been looking into doing a similar project for animal shelters.  My problem is finding used pipe in Indiana.  Anybody know where to find used pipe in southern Indiana, Northern Kentucky, or even the Cincinnati area?Miller 250x & Lincoln V205-TSmith Oxy-Prop torch
Reply:Originally Posted by Kevin Moringentlemen,90% (maybe more- 99%??) of what I've posted won't make any building code review, and there are improvements at every turn, all the details can be improved for every aspect of a building. But.... they're up; they've (mine) been up for five decades; and they're still about the cheapest thing a man can do to get shelter: if the conditions are there?  I've heated a couple with some real contraptions; -40F is not conducive to aluminum boat MIG.I've usually cut a hole or ten in the cast plates welded the rebar both sides with LH70 and called it a day. My first one was in 1970's and its been through plenty of local "seismic events" and is still with us today.  The local steel supplier bends rebar for commercial jobs and gives the (literally) tons of shorts (end shears) up for anyone to haul them off.I've hauled a few barrels and welded it into the awfullest looking 'trees' of junk.  But, once again, they've held, they're all standing and for a less than $5 a square foot (???) they're hard to beat for the starting out barn.As to anchors, I've used a yard of pipe and bored a dozen rebars into the pipe and cast that in a barrel, (incidentally as an off point item: this will work as a decent mooring in a few fathoms of salt water too) and a half dozen other methods.  AS noted; gentlemen this is a set of ideas for the man who has the conditions close at hand.If you had a building inspector close enough to know you existed: none of this is possible!But it will work just like I show it here. BryanD, I'd done the sketches some time ago during a discussion with a truly low overhead (boat) builder who wanted to put up a boat barn and had happened on some tube for almost nothing.  Since I'd had some experience being a broke boat builder, who had no barn, and wanted one..... well I had to reply.My post here isn't to encourage anyone to get in trouble: if  you live where there is enough officialdom to care about your life- don't listen to my ideas or you'll likely get cross threaded with those type of folks.In Alaska, and especially rural Alaska, we don't have quite the density inspectors found more commonly in the old country.  I'm writing from a state with a total population less than a single voting district in most folks' areas.  Almost all the inspection types are concentrated in one area and so we just do " the best we can" out here in the trees.If you're close to many others, if you live in a densely populated state: ignore this post! For anyone who lives where there's more room with less officialdom, well, this poll barn can keep the wind off your MIG bead.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Replyooks a lot more complicated than most of the pole barns built with pipe down here in Texas.Of course our ground doesn't freeze, and we don't _usually_ have much snow.OLD miller M-295  (AC)Century 230/140 ac/dcVictor torchNot much else but some cheap tools.
Reply:Kevin:Great post. Thanks so much for sharing it.There's a guy here in Texas named Harvey Lacey who posts on Tractorbynet a lot and he builds pole barns. He makes some very interesting couplers that he uses in his. You may want to check his site and see his method.Rowdius is quite right about the stuff built here in Texas, especially rural Texas. After a strong breeze you can pick up sheet tin in a lot of places. And not much snow,except for this year.I'm about to build two sheds. One for equipment storage and the other for hay storage. I'm going to use a combination of your method and Harvey Lacey's. Of course where I live and being classed as farm the building restrictions are somewhat less stringent.And as others have already said welding to rebar is done all the time. It's no problem.Thanks again.Glenn.Sign on East Texas payphone: Calls to God 40 cents......it's a local call...
Reply:Good post Kevin. The design is a bit different than what I thought you had in mind in the other post.As far as rebar... There's a big difference between the standard rebar that folks grab at Depo and the bar thats usually welded. The type designed to be welded is usually held to higher tolerances than the cheap stuff (you frequently see welded rebar in bridges and highrises). Not all bar IS weldable, only some. Lots of times the cheap bar is made from recycled scrap mystery mix, and will not weld wroth cr@p. After years of working with concrete and rebar, I'd usually error on the side of saying don't weld on bar unless you know it's weldable. I've seen too many cases where quick jigs and so on made from rebar failed because the bar was too hard and the welds wouldn't hold..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWGood post Kevin. The design is a bit different than what I thought you had in mind in the other post.As far as rebar... There's a big difference between the standard rebar that folks grab at Depo and the bar thats usually welded. The type designed to be welded is usually held to higher tolerances than the cheap stuff (you frequently see welded rebar in bridges and highrises). Not all bar IS weldable, only some. Lots of times the cheap bar is made from recycled scrap mystery mix, and will not weld wroth cr@p. After years of working with concrete and rebar, I'd usually error on the side of saying don't weld on bar unless you know it's weldable. I've seen too many cases where quick jigs and so on made from rebar failed because the bar was too hard and the welds wouldn't hold.
Reply:Originally Posted by Eric NCouldn't you say this about almost any cheap/scrap metal. If you don't know the properties of the metal you are working with, I agree it's going to be harder to weld.
Reply:Kevin ,.you have without a doubt done the best with what was available to you and you made it work for you,fact is that is just what our forefathers did also,they did'nt have an architect to design buildings in the rural areas for them,so they made do with what they had.How many yards of concrete will a 55gal drum hold?Again, excellent work and ideas.
Reply:A gallon is .134 cf, so 55 gal is not quite 7 1/2 cf of crete roughly, or a bit more than a 1/4 yd..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
ReplyynchWood, that is what we end up doing; what we can with what's (affordable) available.  Its a long way to the steel mill from SC Ak.DSW, we didn't have bigbox stores here, until recently, all the bar came from a very reliable supplier who was providing formed shapes to the local building projects and it wall welded fine.Rowdius, it sure has more parts than the single stick models which I've seen but I was going to lift from the lower chords on the couple of shop buildings I built; so I trussed them.We did build a house with single pole/stick members in the roof and walls and its done fine for 20some years.  built it in halves along the ridge line and used a small cat trailer to send it home, then put the halves together and bolted it together along the centerline.  Bolted on the wood, sheathed and insulated, dry-walled the inside and unless you get underneath and saw the foundation is made of 30" deep 3" pipe truss sets- you'd not know from the outside.Obviously I like surplus tube/pipe as a low cost framing material, but if we could find low cost I beams, H beams or plate to make cut-n-weld trusses- like in convention steel buildings- I'd use whatever was at hand. This is just the best cost-to-strength material in my area.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:Hey Kevin, great post.  We have been building those type of out buildings for years in the country.  Most of them were single legged or built off of creosote poles with pipe rafters/trusses.  There are a couple I have seen that are doubles like what you have.  Anyway, great post and reminder of how cheap you can put up an out building/barn.
Reply:Hey all though you should be commended for having a good thought out game plane before you started. There are a couple of serious problems that you need to address. One of my jobs is that I run a concrete crew, and being in that profession. I see that the idea of welding rebar directly to the plates and casting them into the concrete will not work for two reasons. A the county codes office in you state will not allow it and B there is no pretension on the rebar therefore the coloums will stretch the connection and break loose. You need to make rebar cages with 12" horizontal squares and vertical rebar rods in each corner with graded studs welded to the ends of the rebar and protuding thru the concrete, you make a wooden osb plate with the bolt pattern of the collums thru it and the bolts holding everything above the concrete. When the concrete is finished and hard you can set the leg structures on top of the bolt pattern and torque it down and the posts become a stressed member which will give them there structural rigidity. You have a couple other problems that I see, one of grave concern and couple not that bad. the first and foremost is that the county building codes office is not going to sign off on this structure, there are going to tell you that you are going to need stamped engineered drawings for the steel structure and for the footings. The other things I see is there a no lateral bracings in the structure, that puts too much load on the connection to the concrete and will shear them off during the construction process. The other is why do the concrete in steel barrels when you can use cardboard sonitubes, 2' round and cut to what ever lenght you want. You can buy them cheap at Lowes or Home Depot. And then there is the concrete to fill drums full of cement it will probably take 20 to 25 bags per drum and it would be way easier and cheaper to have a truck bring it to you. I am not trying to tell you what to do I am only trying to help you think this throught before you start. I put a pic of the bolt cages that will pass code and give the strenght you will need. This is the same design I used in my steel building I just finished on my property. If I can be of any help don't hesitate to ask. Pete Attached Images
Reply:i've made quite a few dozen of the above design for a company, must be good
Reply:We get stamped plans that call out for plate with welded rebar on them all the time, mostly for column bases.  Weldable rebar is ASTM A706, vs the typical ASTM 615 used for concrete reinforcement.  I would imagine that with a cage, you are dealing with alot more stress vs. welded rebar.And they are inspected by a CWI before going into the concrete.Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom.
Reply:Most of the plans on post footings I've done just call for the rebar cage, then the base plates/anchor bolts to be seperate and usually wetset according to the stamped plans. PITA when the "L" shaped anchor bolts interfear with the cage and the footing/wall is already full of crete. (there's often no good way to check exact placement until the cretes poured.) Usually end up loosening up the bolt and turning it to get the location correct. I can't remember one wheer the plans actually called for the bolts to be welded to the cage. I've tied them in place to the steel on a few occasions when wetseting the plates wasn't an option, but that was our call, not the Architect/Engineers.As far as the drums, if they're free I guess could see using them. We seldom used full height sona tubes. With tubes over 12", usually we only cut them to stick 6"-12" below grade and set the top to height, hanging them over the hole. Especially if the holes were bored with an auger for lamp posts / deck footings. That or we just used Simons forms for the whole thing or the lower section and Sona tube above if the client really demanded round piers. Most of the footings for posts in basements were just rough dug with the bucket on the machine, possibly rough formed up on one side if they got a bit long. The extra crete was cheaper than the labor to form the whole thing unless it was on rock..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I'm [clearly] not getting the conditions of these buildings communicated to the folks who live in the old country; I know I'm not a good writer but I have already made a few clear statements regarding conditions.I realize from the posts that there are different ways of doing things in different parts of the country, and I tried to make clear that we're a bit off the "regulatory beaten path" so to speak.I would not/ do not/ did not/ will not interact with anyone- in any level of any government- to build  what I wanted.  None, that is; nada, ZERO, less than no one, ....... I realize this won't fly everywhere there is a population density that has caused folks to organize other peoples' lives.  Lots of folks live (AK) here for the distance to others' interfering with their 'stuff'.We don't do that here except inside city limits and that is less than 0.000001% of the place.The buildings are 30 and 40 years old, they work, they're up; they are past facts; by decades.  This was not supposition or theory about these buildings, many of them were built exactly as shown, and countless modifications over what is sketched were also done and they're still standing.The oil and gas business sometimes has surplus that is more expensive to haul and store than to liquidate at the site.  Tubing, cement, equipment of many types and these can be combined into very low cost shelters that will stand up to Alaskan winters, earthquakes and various other influences and remain upright.I know this is not the code way of building, and I realize that engineers and architects might not design like this, but I was a 20-something year old welder who wanted to build welded aluminum boats and had no shop.  I built a shop then more, then hundreds of boats inside and the barns are still up, the boats all still fish; so I was just posting for those who may find they're short of $ and long on needs for building/work/welding space.I don't expect this will meet code in downtown, Anywhere, USA; but it will work if the conditions are there that provide a willing welder the opportunity to build his own pole barn.  I realize all the good points made about 'this item' or 'that item' but it appears the point of view of the post isn't being taken into account- this is 'gonzo' building at its best.My main point is: if you find a pile of pipe and a stretch of country where there's little government interference in life- go for it.Cheers,Kevin MorinDSW, drums for footers on non-slab buildings; we usually have to go ~48" with single post footer to get below the (seasonal) frost line- slabs on grade will float.Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:I just stumbled across this post recently and have been thinking about doing the same thing for some time.  I own my own welding shop and we deal with loads of 2-7/8.  I'm basically in the same boat as you were, needing a cheap way to build a welding shop.  Do you think this would work for a 50x100x18?  I would love to chat with you on it.  If you wouldn't mind, email me dirrct at [email protected].  Thank you!!Last edited by sdwelder; 09-04-2019 at 01:31 AM.
Reply:I have been thinking about doing this type of building for some time now.  I live in northern South Dakota and own a small wedding shop that deals with 2-7/8 very regularly.  The problem is I've out grown my building and an looking to build a 50x100 this spring.  I was thinking this winter I would have plenty of time to build the trusses and such and was wondering if you have ever tried a building of this size?  Any input would be great.  If you prefer you can email new dirrct at [email protected].  Thank you!!Last edited by sdwelder; 09-04-2019 at 01:28 AM.Reason: Need to delete, posted twice.
Reply:The surplus steel idea is good. I have doubts about the wisdom of oil barrel footing forms especially in cold climates.My storage building was heavily damaged in a flood caused by an engineer who underestimated water volume in the river. A barrier built to turn the river failed. My building was undermined to a depth of 10 feet in spots. I used as many as four oil barrels welded together end to end with all ends removed to form 12 foot tall columns. A short 6x6 was lagged to channel steel to bolt the actual 6x6 building posts to. As frost can go pretty deep here, the shortest column is 6' below ground level.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:This is a barn made entirely of 2-7/8" used oil pipe, with the exception of galvanized purlins.Completely engineered and stamped for approval in California with super strict building regs.You need to find an engineer that has knowledge of oil pipe. Attached Images
Reply:Hey Kevin.I have a guy that works for me name Marl from the Ketchikan area of Alaska.  Apparently he and his dad used to do a lot of concrete work up there.My only comment is regarding the use of barrels for your foundations.  You will have more uplift resistance, and less potential movement, if you can auger or dig a hole close to the desired size and then pour directly.A lot of foundation uplift resistance is based upon the cone of soil above the foundation, as well as the friction between the concrete and the soil.  If you can pour your foundations in undisturbed soil they will be stronger.  Since the barrel has slick sides you’re losing the uplift resistance based upon the friction of the concrete to the soil.Just something to think about.  Good thread and concepts.ScottMiller Trailblazer Pro 350DMiller Suitcase MIGMiller Spectrum 2050Miller Syncrowave 250DXLincoln 210MP
Reply:I think it will work but I would think getting the walls up without some bracing for wind load would be my biggest concern
Reply:Originally Posted by scsmith42Hey Kevin.I have a guy that works for me name Marl from the Ketchikan area of Alaska.  Apparently he and his dad used to do a lot of concrete work up there.My only comment is regarding the use of barrels for your foundations.  You will have more uplift resistance, and less potential movement, if you can auger or dig a hole close to the desired size and then pour directly.A lot of foundation uplift resistance is based upon the cone of soil above the foundation, as well as the friction between the concrete and the soil.  If you can pour your foundations in undisturbed soil they will be stronger.  Since the barrel has slick sides you’re losing the uplift resistance based upon the friction of the concrete to the soil.Just something to think about.  Good thread and concepts.Scott
Reply:Originally Posted by Willie BI'd have expected a southerner to be less attuned to the uplift of frost. Current thought is the bigfoot approach. A footing needs to be flared below frost, and tapered so frost at grade level won't grip it and lift. 50 years ago pipe pilings were the favored technology. A bag of dry sacrete was dumped at the base. The pipe was wrapped in layers of 4 mil poly. The shortcoming I see in prefab pilings is they are typically 4' tall. Some portion of 4' is above ground, meaning frost goes deeper than the piling. My deck has 7' deep pilings, not tapered. They lift an inch each year. Through spring, and summer they settle somewhat, but never back to original. I adjust every couple years.
Reply:Hey Welding Web Forum, a close reading of the thread might have revealed that footings, foundations and all were just a set of examples what's happened on some of the buildings I've been involved with.I think the best best for the non-slab W/O continuous footing is likely a big foot but the only thing is about the post- all the buildings pre-dated Big foot and sono-tube technology by say - two to four decades..... er - there weren't none.The barrels were free by the hundreds to haul off. The Kenai Pen, where I live is about 20 to 80' of glacial 'till'. Sand, gravel and so most sites where these building - I did- were well drained.  Frost heaving wasn't a big deal if the A) the footer was down about 4' OR B) there was a slab with thickened footer where we could put rebar 'roots' as shown in the sketches.About welding rebar:I've welded the rebar from our local metal supplier since the 1970's when I started welding... one of my first jobs was welding column 'rings' with Jet rod; 1971.  I began welding my own scrap to plate in the mid 70's and while I have no way to inspect those buried in concrete- I suspect most of them are intact? I'm not gain saying those who said it was poor practice?  I'm willing to accept that it's poor practice.   I just did it because I could afford it then; and they held.  I've done some 'testing' with a 8 or 12lb hammer and the welds would hold while the bar was flattened to the plate- 90 degree bend and some non-trivial impact; repeatedly.  I agree with everyone's local ideas and methods.  Now days there's a screw/augur/threaded footer that works pretty well here (I'm told) and I've been involved in a couple of 'welded root sections' too. So there are lots of ways to make a pole barn (of pipe) stand on glacially deposited sand and gravel, including the newer concrete forms like Big Foot and Sono tubes.But I will admit these items do cost money - and I was "buying" barrels for the cost of gas to go haul them off.  Sort of inexpensive form for concrete in a 10' - 20' deep gravel pad.  At the time I'd go off shore and work a couple weeks to afford the next step, and then in order to keep from renting or owning an apartment- I'd stay with buddies, and go off shore (production platforms in Cook Inlet) where room and board are part of the work deal.  Every single penny counted.  We were trying to get a business going without much more than a wage- not a very high wage at that!Those who remarked that we were doing "what we could with what we had" are closest to the mark.  I built the first one in my early 20's with some teenagers who needed some beer money.  Its still standing and I'm nearly 70.  What other proof does anyone need?  We have earthquakes like seasons around here.  Speaking of seasons- its regularly snows and blows here too.  Once the steel skin is on- the entire steel frame is pretty stiff but flexible enough to live through an earthquake every few months.Great photos of the pole-framed sun roof enclosure from CA!  not really designed for a high snow load ? but then they don't probably get that much snow in that neck of the woods?  But the photos do show that L-80 tubing is one heck of a resource if you live where production tubing is "surplussed out" locally.  Not sure it would be economical to be truck freighting scrap tube too far?? (!)  Can you say NORM?As a note to anyone welding production tubing, I find that 2% Nickel, flux core with cover gas seems to be the BEST way to wire weld this material.  I realize that's not realistic for all applications and that many will use a coated electrode.  However, if you can get that added nickel in the alloy- the welds are much better in our break bends coupons than anything else.Cheers, here's to pole barns that provide low cost, high volume, shelter for welders wherever they need to set up shop.  I know that I was able to build a 40x42' barn with a 22' clear ceiling for a couple weeks' wages in 1977/78. I heated it with wood and 'beach coal' and got my start building welded aluminum fishing boats- after we put up the "tent"!!Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:Originally Posted by scsmith42Bill, I haven’t always lived in the south How deep is your frost level?  7’ is on down there.  Of course if the piling aren’t tapered then they will be subject to frost heave.
Reply:I'm here to wake this thread up as it was a good reading and I am pretty close on same page as OP of do what you can with what you have. Yes some stuff won't work due to bureaucracy and have to wait for it and pay more for it but for most part work with what you have.Anywho I am embarking down this road except with using 55 gallon drums I am doing it with salt lick tubs that are made from 55 gallon drums but are about quarter of the size of them, which will be sunk 4' in the ground. I'm in Montana with no building codes over here in a truck camper and winter was brutal at 32 below zero which in week will hit 91 degrees.Instead of 3.5" drill pipe I am using 4.5" and 2.875" for the trusses, also a difference is instead of a flat plate of iron I'm using channel iron with rebar welded to it as anchor bolts. Also since we have nice size hail here I plan on going with what they deem Supersteel or however it is spelled but it's 22 GA roofing steel, haven't decided on side walls yet. There is another conundrum is whether to cut the truss top chords and weld them together or bend them to the angle I need which kinks the pipe.
Reply:Be careful bending 2 7/8 it has a tendency to crack depending on grade and wall thickness.How are you attaching the 2 7/8 to the 4 1/2 ?
Reply:I am going to saddle the ends of the trusses 2 7/8" with 3 inch channel  iron welded on to create flat spot and do the same for the 4.5" pipe  with 4 to 4.5 inch channel iron where the truss will sit at. Don't want  to notch anything as afraid it will weaken the pipe in that area. Got  any better ideas?So far here is the pads the poles will be welded  onto, pretty simple salt lick tubs about quarter size of 55 gallon  drums, 3 bags on concrete with 2 layers of remesh sunk in with anchor  pads pressed in afterwards for the poles.
Reply:How deep are you putting the tub of concrete?ChrisAuction Addict
Reply:Going down 5 feet measuring from the base of where it will sit at on up to prevent frost upheaval. According to building codes in Montana on this side they say 36 inches is enough and the once in 100 years I believe it is says 60 inches either or it will be down deep. Another thing is there is no flat ground here so this will be tucked into a hill which will block the north wind though the SW winds can be fun in summer time.
Reply:weldman,i'd say bending the ridge line/apex/peak intersection wasn't worth the effort.  Mainly because if you're adding purlins  over the pipe then a miter between the two rafter/truss chords works easier (IMO) if they're mitered  You can get the top purlin closer to the ridge/apex/peak line and they won't have to be built up due the bend taking an area of the roof plane near the ridge down - due to the arch resulting from a bend instead if mitering the top ends of the top chord pipes/tubes.Hope that came across in text?Since 100% of any building we've done here was on a site with 8-20' of gravel and drained very well, we got away with less effort in our footings than is probably used elsewhere?  If I understand you're using 4" pipe @ 4-1/2" OD tubing for the uprights? and the 2-1/2" pipe or 2-7/8" OD tubing for the trusses and then mitering the ends for channel?  I think that will work fine.Are the truss webbing ends saddled to the bottom and top chords, not sure from your remarks about notching?  I don't think saddling the tops of the 4.5" legs/columns would weaken the joint in anyway- so that the bottom chord just sat 1/2 dia. into the uprights.  That would seem to be an easy joint and allow all the weld needed to keep the trusses 'seated'?Thanks for the pictures of your project, hope we get to see your barn from the footings to the ridge line.Cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:Around here getting "below the frost" is generally considered to be 8', and a lot of pole structures are down there. When I had my pole shed constructed, the company building it suggested the piles go down only 5' with a foot of screened rock below them. I asked him why they weren't going to 8' like everyone else and he asked me where we expected to hit water in our yard. I replied, "At about 8'..." so yea... you don't want a building sitting on that with or without frost. The key is the foot of crushed rock under each pole for subterranean drainage. I suspect Kevin got away with that because of the gravel. My pole structure has been in place since 2003 (wood, not metal posts) and is doing just fine.250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Originally Posted by Kevin Morinweldman,i'd say bending the ridge line/apex/peak intersection wasn't worth the effort.  Mainly because if you're adding purlins  over the pipe then a miter between the two rafter/truss chords works easier (IMO) if they're mitered  You can get the top purlin closer to the ridge/apex/peak line and they won't have to be built up due the bend taking an area of the roof plane near the ridge down - due to the arch resulting from a bend instead if mitering the top ends of the top chord pipes/tubes.Hope that came across in text?Since 100% of any building we've done here was on a site with 8-20' of gravel and drained very well, we got away with less effort in our footings than is probably used elsewhere?  If I understand you're using 4" pipe @ 4-1/2" OD tubing for the uprights? and the 2-1/2" pipe or 2-7/8" OD tubing for the trusses and then mitering the ends for channel?  I think that will work fine.Are the truss webbing ends saddled to the bottom and top chords, not sure from your remarks about notching?  I don't think saddling the tops of the 4.5" legs/columns would weaken the joint in anyway- so that the bottom chord just sat 1/2 dia. into the uprights.  That would seem to be an easy joint and allow all the weld needed to keep the trusses 'seated'?Thanks for the pictures of your project, hope we get to see your barn from the footings to the ridge line.Cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:Your missing the point. Since your clay is almost impervious, the only entrance for the moisture from precipitation is around the posts. We have clay for the top 8 ft as well, with rock shale below on rolling hills so similar conditions. You still need that subsurface drainage to prevent the water from collecting at the base of your posts.250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC StickF-225 amp Forney AC Stick230 amp Sears AC StickLincoln 180C MIGVictor Medalist 350 O/ACut 50 PlasmaLes
Reply:Originally Posted by whtbaronYour missing the point. Since your clay is almost impervious, the only entrance for the moisture from precipitation is around the posts. We have clay for the top 8 ft as well, with rock shale below on rolling hills so similar conditions. You still need that subsurface drainage to prevent the water from collecting at the base of your posts.
Reply:Nobody seems to get it. Frost grips a post in the top foot below grade. If frost lifts, it lifts the post. If it lifts all posts with equal effect, no problem. An old builder I used to work with wrapped posts with several layers of 4 mil. poly. Gave it a place where it could slip. These days there are precast piers with Foot. These give the freeze at ground level a chance to let go. I have a deck. It is supported by two rows of piers. It isn't actually attached to the house. A row of piers is against the foundation, there, little freezing takes place. 16 feet away, it freezes pretty deep some years. All are 7' deep. Here 54" is considered to be below frost. The outer row lifts about an inch each year, then settles about 3/4" in summer. Every few years I adjust for levelAn optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Willie B, where water or even moisture can 'settle' or stand: that frost or freezing will heave and grip posts or footers. But in drained soils (gravel, sands and mixtures of them) the water won't stand until deeper where there's a layer of some sort to allow a frost/frozen/hard heaving boundary.So, if you have soil that doesn't drain, and there are plenty of those in the Contiguous states as well as here in AK, then you'd have to make provision for the water that becomes the frost or frozen layer to "go some where".So in TX (couple utube videos) and lots of the clay layered states that only see a bit of cold weather, if they drain the footer, or even dig a trench uphill of the entire foundation- and cover it with geo-textiles to keep the clay and dirt from sealing up the trench- they can fill it with any aggregate and keep their footers dry including piles, posts and poles.If there's no water (moisture) present to freeze- then there's no grip and no heave.We've had barrel's buried 4' since the 1970's (in gravel and sand sites) w/o the slightest movement we can detect.  I do have a couple of slabs on grade that move every year- they make unlocking one shop door require a bit more torque for a couple months- but when break up comes that settles back so the doors work exactly as built.MY point is:  different locations and soil conditions act differently season to freezin'.  If you have a sieve below grade- won't much water stand there to freeze and heave.  But if the site has clay or other non-draining soil- then anything put in the ground will heave and as you note- might not come back to level even in the warmer months.I'd say that weldman would be well advised to dig a trench uphill of his posts to allow the run off to avoid his foundation - like a "french drain" and if he's going to put individual holes in the ground- he'd be better off digging trenches with a back hoe and sloping those down hill with some shingle in the bottom half shielded with some geo-textile cloth.  But if the building's eaves and overhangs were wide enough? that should keep water out of his footers; unless the hill side is shedding run-off into the building?cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:Originally Posted by Kevin MorinWillie B, where water or even moisture can 'settle' or stand: that frost or freezing will heave and grip posts or footers. But in drained soils (gravel, sands and mixtures of them) the water won't stand until deeper where there's a layer of some sort to allow a frost/frozen/hard heaving boundary.So, if you have soil that doesn't drain, and there are plenty of those in the Contiguous states as well as here in AK, then you'd have to make provision for the water that becomes the frost or frozen layer to "go some where".So in TX (couple utube videos) and lots of the clay layered states that only see a bit of cold weather, if they drain the footer, or even dig a trench uphill of the entire foundation- and cover it with geo-textiles to keep the clay and dirt from sealing up the trench- they can fill it with any aggregate and keep their footers dry including piles, posts and poles.If there's no water (moisture) present to freeze- then there's no grip and no heave.We've had barrel's buried 4' since the 1970's (in gravel and sand sites) w/o the slightest movement we can detect.  I do have a couple of slabs on grade that move every year- they make unlocking one shop door require a bit more torque for a couple months- but when break up comes that settles back so the doors work exactly as built.MY point is:  different locations and soil conditions act differently season to freezin'.  If you have a sieve below grade- won't much water stand there to freeze and heave.  But if the site has clay or other non-draining soil- then anything put in the ground will heave and as you note- might not come back to level even in the warmer months.I'd say that weldman would be well advised to dig a trench uphill of his posts to allow the run off to avoid his foundation - like a "french drain" and if he's going to put individual holes in the ground- he'd be better off digging trenches with a back hoe and sloping those down hill with some shingle in the bottom half shielded with some geo-textile cloth.  But if the building's eaves and overhangs were wide enough? that should keep water out of his footers; unless the hill side is shedding run-off into the building?cheers,Kevin MorinKenai, AK
Reply:I don’t know what size building your building out of this material but it would be far easier welding if your barrel was full of concrete so you could get a good weld on that magnetized tubing you are gonna try to weld on those pads you put in there ! Secondly trying to get your posts to line up straight with those little pads is gonna be tough cause unless you get them all exactly in a row your post might be off to one side and not be welded very good ! The last thing you wanna dump in those holes is scoria it holds water and will rust off your posts . Lastly if it was mine I would put connections on the four corners and put ground rods in and have that steel building grounded and run the ground wire up into building so it is there . I was from montana and it only takes one bolt of lighting during construction to hurt somebody especially as much welding as you are going to do in the air