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hi, needed some advice. i just picked up a solvent tank/parts washer and it came with a 125v 30A plug (L9-30 i believe) twist lock type. i dont have one of these in my garage but i do have a 4 prong 220v 14-50 that is used for a car charger. could i use a 14-50 plug and wire it to use this machine on 120v using just a hot leg and neutral?the breaker is a 2 pole either 40A or 50A. i'll have to double check tomorrow.this was originally wired for my welder that uses a 6-50.thank you
Reply:I doubt that was the correct plug to start with unless its a special app . Show us a picture and even pic of the motor. Most likelt the proper thing is to change it to a 15 end. This is not a heated washer? No, this should not be hooked to circuit with large breaker.Last edited by Sberry; 1 Week Ago at 06:58 AM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Technically what you suggest would provide the proper voltage, but the wire to the solvent bin would not be protected by the circuit.Miller Trailblazer Pro 350DMiller Suitcase MIGMiller Spectrum 2050Miller Syncrowave 250DXLincoln 210MP
Reply:Yes, not only the wire but the machine itself relies on the breaker for short circuit protection. The only additional protection it may have might be a thermal reset on the motor. My bet without seeing ,,, if this is a common parts washer is it is sposed to be plugged in to 20A max.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Check that machine actually requires a 30 amp on 125 volt to start with. Guessing it must be a heated model.Last edited by danielplace; 1 Week Ago at 12:01 PM.
Reply:If the 14-50 for the car charger was derived from your original 6-50 welder circuit as you stated there is very likely no neutral as neither the welder or the car charger requires one.Miller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:thank you for the replies.i should have mentioned this but the guy i got it from fitted his own heater to it. i'm guessing this is why the wiring and plug were converted.also, i do remember there being a neutral in the box when i changed to the 14-50. not sure why they would have ran one for that circuit but i'm glad they did.
Reply:i doubt he installed and separate circuit protection inside the control box but i'll check today.
Reply:Being you posted it uses a 4 wire plug if every one had a wire then it would almost almost certainly has to have a neutral like you say.The circuit only needs to be big enough it doesn't have to provide the machines protection too. Install the plug or make the adapter and use the thing.If something goes to ground it will trip whatever is feeding it. If protection is something you want just add a fuse holder in the feed in/at the unit. Problem is your wasting your time as the heater draw way more than the pump so no way to fuse it low enough to help the pump any and still have the heater not blow the fuse. You don't need nothing.Take a range for instance. Do you think anything in that range is actually being protected with a 50 amp feeding it. The fan is like your pump the heating elements are like your heating element. They don't need protection from anything.Last edited by danielplace; 1 Week Ago at 02:17 PM.
Reply:There are adapters to go from the 14-50R to various 120 volt configurations, depending on the current requirements of the parts washer. Is there a nameplate showing electrical requirements?https://www.amazon.com/s?k=50+amp+to...l_60p6qpoyqg_eLast edited by bigb; 1 Week Ago at 02:14 PM.Miller Challenger 172Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150Miller Maxstar 150 STLVictor 100CVictor JourneymanOxweld OAHarris O/ASmith O/A little torchNo, that's not my car.
Reply:
Originally Posted by bigb
There are adapters to go from the 14-50R to various 120 volt configurations, depending on the current requirements of the parts washer. Is there a nameplate showing electrical requirements?https://www.amazon.com/s?k=50+amp+to...l_60p6qpoyqg_e
Reply:If you don't have specs temp wire it and amp probe the wire. Doesn't really matter if you know the cord is big enough then 50 amp is going to power it just fine. It can't draw more than it uses and can't overload a cord that is properly sized for the unit in the first place.You don't have to over think it. Change the plug or make adapter and use it safely. If you want safer then GFI protection would be something to go after if it would even power those unit's without nuisance tripping.Last edited by danielplace; 1 Week Ago at 03:12 PM.
Reply:There is some misunderstanding here of some fundamentals of overcurrent protection. The wiring in an electric range is certainly protected by the 50 in the sense the breaker provides the short circuit protection in the unit. It does not provide thermal, that is derived from the calculated applied load. Breaker is simply sized to provide fault protection and large enough to allow the full load current to pass .www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
Being you posted it uses a 4 wire plug if every one had a wire then it would almost almost certainly has to have a neutral like you say.The circuit only needs to be big enough it doesn't have to provide the machines protection too. Install the plug or make the adapter and use the thing.If something goes to ground it will trip whatever is feeding it. If protection is something you want just add a fuse holder in the feed in/at the unit. Problem is your wasting your time as the heater draw way more than the pump so no way to fuse it low enough to help the pump any and still have the heater not blow the fuse. You don't need nothing.Take a range for instance. Do you think anything in that range is actually being protected with a 50 amp feeding it. The fan is like your pump the heating elements are like your heating element. They don't need protection from anything.
Reply:I think real career electricians either 1 of 2 or 3 things with this. Its what the amateur really doesnt understand, its the real trade secret part of the trade, they may take it for granted or they get tired of splainin it, or dont explain it and even sidelined so to speak with a different interest. Some guys worry b about voltage drop, yes a valid concern. Mine happens to be short circuit interuption for the most part and within that cord and plug design and overcurrent protection, this does involve wire size. There is a simplistic version says you simply match a wire and a breaker to come up with the answer. I really wish a master or 2 would jump in here to help with my feeble attempt at explanation as its obvious I and others,,,, one of my best genius buds cant teach anything and never realize I was missing pieces till I have aha moments, but there are a couple great forum guys here I would like to see have an enlightening moment about this. Sad thing is, most of them know more about electricity than I ever will and i sincerely mean this. This statement is where my interest lays. "The only thing the breaker does is protect the wire in the wall. " Additional thermal overloads in many cases, like a power strip are not magnetic breakers and not designed as fault protection but as thermal in case 2 heaters get plugged in to the strip. If a 3 way or a strip has a number 12 wire, a 3way thing doesnt need additional protection. The statement is true and I say only with some reservation but for the purpose of this discussion,,,, the breaker does double duty on this circuit, provides a thermal and short circuit. Take a wood shop of sorts, lots of machines, individual circuits could be lots but we might use 30 and twist lock and wire cords on to machines for code compliance with overcurrent not actual machine load. This twist lets all the equipment wired to be allowed on 30,,, doesnt mean it needs 30 only that its allowed to be on it. Same for the 210 class welder and all 240 machines. They come with 50 end or adapter, they don't need 50 but the mfg and the master that wired it made provisions to allow it to this circuit. This is why I throw a bit of a fit when someone comes along endorsing the idea that u8sing 4 wire on an 80 is a great solution as he can plug all his machines in to it without overheating the wire,,,,, duh frickin duh but that machine that comes 50 end is not designed to be wired to an 80A circuit no matter what wire it has. This brings us back to this thread. If the heater is a home built add-on, you would need to know the amperage requirements for it as well to add to the nameplate requirements of the original unit.
Reply:I should chop the end off this and install a 30 twist. Its been running on the 15 cord and plug for decades but what makes it bad is could unplug it and plug in tools and cords not designed to be used on 30. Its not gonna hurt the circuit but is an ambush to the end user. I had a fault with the cord on a battery charger and it tripped the breaker. Only 15A breaker recept circuit I have is my work/welding bench. Half a dozen outlets but used 1 at a time, never tripped a non fault breaker but we simply figure the amount of stuff we plug to it with small cords lowering the threshold a bit cant hurt where its so widely used.
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Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
If you don't have specs temp wire it and amp probe the wire. Doesn't really matter if you know the cord is big enough then 50 amp is going to power it just fine. It can't draw more than it uses and can't overload a cord that is properly sized for the unit in the first place.You don't have to over think it. Change the plug or make adapter and use it safely. If you want safer then GFI protection would be something to go after if it would even power those unit's without nuisance tripping.
Reply:I saw this somewhere and had to grab it. Bet its a flea mkt special, not one single mark on it.
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Reply:The one legal they do make going from big to small is a 4 wire 50 to a TT30 Travel trailer has additional overload protection. What the problem is that the code tries to prevent these wiring schemes, it tries hard, well meaning people can still manage to defeat it though. Ya wonder why they suggest a qualified installer,,, this is why.Last edited by Sberry; 1 Week Ago at 05:54 PM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Difference between welder and range is,,, the cord on the range handles all the load from several burners and cord and taps in a buzzer used one at a time and a big collection of number 12 wire including the cord hooked to a 50 breaker. Breaker not as thermal device in this case but short circuit and a means of disconnect. Has to be big enough to pass enough current for the machine to operate without tripping.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Hobart 190 comes with the same cord a Stickmate did, the new DVI 210 come with the same cord a 140 does. The adapter is essentially a 30A breaker to allow the smaller wire to be connected to 50. On 120 the breaker is not needed as its back to the breaker in the wall providing fault.Last edited by Sberry; 1 Week Ago at 06:16 PM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
This theory needs work. Almost all connected equipment depends on the breaker for fault protection, basically the only time it provides thermal is on general use circuits with multiple outlets where the end user can plug more equipment in to the circuit and overload the wire.
Reply:It has fault protection a 50 amp breaker. A #18 wire in less than 6 foot length will trip a 50 amp. His cord is thicker than a #18.
Reply:I cant even begin to understand all the calculations and under some circumstances a 18 could fault 50 but not reliably and wayyy too much voltage drop. This is what all 3 relevant deals, code, nema and ul try to prevent. Someone simply hooking up a dangerous wire. I dun it, its why I know, its how I can spot a smart guy that has a hitch in understanding a couple pieces of a fundamental concept. Not a question of smart, its simply havnt made this part of circuit design like a reaction yet.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:For our purpose,,,, there is a limit to the wire size regardless of the current it may carry, its simply sized proper to be allowed on that circuit.www.urkafarms.comThe difference between old and new Christmas tree lights worth noting. Even wall warts a form of protection to allow all this dinky equipment to be connected to 20A 120V circuits.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:With limited exception the receptical says 2 things. One thing is that its adequate for 30A and the second is that its limited for 30A and has 30 ocpd. Replacing the 30 with a 40 wouldnt effect the load or change anything in appliance like a dryer, draws what it draws but all the control wiring and safety controls now out of code compliance cause Joey landed it on a big breaker. Simple as that, the dryer designed to go on a current limited circuit. Common tools with cords, 16 on 20A. Certain types of tools will actually tolerate higher current but they usually changed under rather strict supervision.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I ran across something I did a ways back, had a duh deal and a dangerous thing simply lucky with cause I simply wire something in a test and then forget etc.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
There is some misunderstanding here of some fundamentals of overcurrent protection. The wiring in an electric range is certainly protected by the 50 in the sense the breaker provides the short circuit protection in the unit. It does not provide thermal, that is derived from the calculated applied load. Breaker is simply sized to provide fault protection and large enough to allow the full load current to pass .
Reply:Simple table light with a 60 watt bulb and unfused for tiny zip cord plugged into a 15 or 20 amp plug is safe for same reasons with no secondary protection because of small wire.
Reply:The control wires in some ranges are protected by additional fuse. You need to measure the wires in a range before determining that its 16 running everywhere.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:As we have already discussed it could be fused internally pretty easy to something less than 50 amp we all know this. None of it any reason to make a project out of getting it working from the 50 amp plug he has access to
Reply:This is why the training and the examination over a long period of time to become licensed electrician. They want to insure this concept is well understood.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:so a bit of an update. i opened the plug and its wired for 220v.not sure why there was a 125v 30A rated plug on it but it was running on a 220v circuit. i wired it to a 14-50 and i finally have a working parts washer.thank you all for the input.
Reply:It might be working but doesnt mean its safe especially if this a home brew scheme.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
This is why the training and the examination over a long period of time to become licensed electrician. They want to insure this concept is well understood.
Reply:They why would you advocate an idea with so many amateur code violations with a big ole lol. ? Advise a guy doesnt know 220 from 221 to build an illegal and dangerous adapter wouldnt pass in inspection anywhere.Last edited by Sberry; 1 Week Ago at 04:45 AM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Gotta love some of the logic here, i know because the bosses son failed a test 40 years ago and because i rode around jn a truck for 7 years at night. That and building exhaust for rv boats. . I am sure there is a connection there but its a bit over my head.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:This thread should remove all doubt as to why osha outlawed replacement cord ends on jobs. Those home brewed spider boxes too.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
They why would you advocate an idea with so many amateur code violations with a big ole lol. ? Advise a guy doesnt know 220 from 221 to build an illegal and dangerous adapter wouldnt pass in inspection anywhere.
Reply:You are correct no one needs a license to understand this but when one does have it they are sposed to know. As for the I dont care,,,, that much is obvious. BTW I am not an electrician. Its not about electricity per sa its about fundamental wiring. Shame is you probably do know more about electric than I ever will. To the original poster,,, there should be some congratulations for going to great length to successfully evade most of the fundamental safety principles of modern wiring in one event. Have added a significant risk of shock and fire in a single move on one piece of equipment. We didn't even get to the question of whether this is adequately grounded. I could pretty confidently bet real money this isnt the case. Another shame of this is that some or most of its problems may go away if it was connected to the correct breaker. Simple as that.Last edited by Sberry; 1 Week Ago at 01:16 PM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I doubt if I could pass a real test at least without some serious study if then. I just plain dont know enough about electricity. Installing compliant cord and plug and some equipment circuits is a slightly different matter and somewhat different skill set.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
I doubt if I could pass a real test at least without some serious study if then. I just plain dont know enough about electricity. Installing compliant cord and plug and some equipment circuits is a slightly different matter and somewhat different skill set.
Reply:No reason to start with your insults. First it is expirience and a exam you wanted. I had that then there was more degrading poop coming out of your mouth. You need to take a chill pill and participate like a adult. Funny coming from me I know but jeez enough is enough. Your right you/ I / we really shouldn't help with these questions when they are not proper wiring techniques especially when we do not know the level of expirience and know how that is in the head of OP and someone could hurt themselves. We really should not help with many of the things people want to do even if it is legal and we know how to do it right but often they have no clue as so many of these threads have proven time and time again.Lots of what we participate in on here with questions and answers often would not pass a inspection.You thought this was a good idea. It was mild yea but took 5 seconds to find you saying it is ok to install a code violation.https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/2...extension-cordThe thread is pretty much all done. The OP has already posted it turned out to be 240 volt. He wired it and it is working. Hopefully it is grounded properly too.Last edited by danielplace; 1 Week Ago at 01:59 PM.
Reply:I always wonder when a guy says he passes a test and confuses a plug and a recept,,, but it happens. I didnt insult you, wasnt meant to, you are a smart guy, I have no doubt about that but the concept that it is working so that must mean its wired right is basically faulty. There are some masters troll here and a couple would take a free shot at me if they got a chance. They pointed out when I didnt grasp and I had to go back and found out it was me, wasnt the code people or them didnt understand but something I didnt grasp. I never had an occasion they did that to me where I was right.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:There are a lot of guys that have learned well from internet threads, thousands have learned to ground a panel and a circuit from threads. Normally it gets sorted out. Its certainly not beyond me to miss an important point,,, feel free to enlighten me about code violations in the thread. I got no problem with that. I look again,,,, it is faulty or at least not complete,,, great catch.Last edited by Sberry; 1 Week Ago at 02:19 PM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
There are a lot of guys that have learned well from internet threads, thousands have learned to ground a panel and a circuit from threads. Normally it gets sorted out. Its certainly not beyond me to miss an important point,,, feel free to enlighten me about code violations in the thread. I got no problem with that. I look again,,,, it is faulty or at least not complete,,, great catch.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
I always wonder when a guy says he passes a test and confuses a plug and a recept,,, but it happens.
Reply:Those adapters are dangerous and what if he didn't get it ground right. Lol.
Reply:Is there a ready made adapter for that? Is there any reason it wouldnt be legal?www.urkafarms.com |
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发表于 2022-2-9 15:52:26