|
|
In reviewing posts on the Forum, there are many who have problems with bent or broken axles, bearings constantly failing, or a combination of suspension and axle failures. Most often, it's a weight issue. They're trying to haul more stuff than the trailer is rated for.On dual axle trailers, it's usually a wheel failure lugs break off and the hub burns up. What's happening here?? Most trailer users have no real clue on how or why this happened. Mis-information on what can be used is all over the internet. Just because a wheel is an 8 lug X 6.5 bolt circle does that mean it will fit and work? After all, that's what the trailer wheel measured. You see ads all the time where sellers say the wheels will fit all Ford, Chevy, Dodge trucks as well as trailers. In all of these vehicles, the hub is supposed to carry the weight, not the studs. You have to use the wheel center that fits the hub. If you take a Ford wheel and install it on a Chevy or Dodge The wheel center is larger than the hub centric location and will only be supported by the studs. If the same Ford wheel is installed on a trailer hub, it will appear to fit, however, the Ford wheel center is 0.10" smaller than the trailer hub. What happens is that the wheel will not lay flat against the hub and will eventually break the studs and fall off.My intent here is to educate just one person so that they can haul safely and not have failures on the road.Now on to the topic of the postI absolutely hate paying the high cost for axles over 7000 lbs. You shop all of the vendors and you realize that there really isn't much of a price difference. We all know how to weld and can make a trailer chassis in whatever configuration we want, but are limited in what we can do with suspension and axles. I have a 45 ft gooseneck trailer and a dedicated 500 gal water trailer to water my horses. I am going to build a 16 ft utility trailer and a 20 ft high side dump trailer. I have 3 acres and will be building a hay barn and a stable. Lots of things for a trailer to haul.I made quite a few comparisons between trailer spindles and those used on the rear axles of 3/4 ton and one ton trucks. Interesting that the same hubs were used in single wheel and dual wheel configurations. We have a company called "U Pull and Pay" that sells auto parts really cheap. I had to decide what vehicle I would use as my hub donor and it all came down to what was available. There were few Dodges and Chevy's. Fords were plentiful. Now I had to decide whether I would use 8 X 6.5 or 8 X 170 hubs. Again, it was a matter of availability and since I needed 8 hubs for two trailers, I chose the 8 X 170 that was used on 1999 t0 2003.https://weldingweb.com/vbb/asset.php...1496024479Ford F250's and F350's.This is where we are going. I will be posting full details in a few days.
Reply:Link didn't work. Are you revisiting this build?https://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthrea...ild&highlight=Dave J.Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~ Syncro 350Invertec v250-sThermal Arc 161 and 300MM210DialarcTried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
Reply:
Originally Posted by sancobg
...the hub is supposed to carry the weight, not the studs. You have to use the wheel center that fits the hub.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Fab54
That is interesting. I always thought the hub center was meant to ensure the rim turns true to the hub.Back in the day I used to spend hours in junkyards pulling front spindles from Pacers, Javelins, Ramblers and Gremlins. They were four bolt and you could make some nice rectangular tube axles with them. They were not 7000 pound axles but they were pretty strong. Still running them on a dual axle trailer that I built in the early 80s.
Reply:
Originally Posted by farmersammm
He's partially wrong https://buytruckwheels.com/pages/hubpilotvsbudd I've converted stud piloted wheels to hub piloted wheels. There is a huge difference. The hub piloted wheel takes the full load on the hub itself. The stud piloted wheel is held on, and transfers the load, due to clamping force.By "he", I mean the OP.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Fab54
That is interesting. I always thought the hub center was meant to ensure the rim turns true to the hub.Back in the day I used to spend hours in junkyards pulling front spindles from Pacers, Javelins, Ramblers and Gremlins. They were four bolt and you could make some nice rectangular tube axles with them. They were not 7000 pound axles but they were pretty strong. Still running them on a dual axle trailer that I built in the early 80’s.
Reply:
Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave
I wonder what the modern equivalent vehicle would be?One hub I'd like to find is the one on my car dolly. It's a completely sealed hub more like the rear of a front wheel drive car. I'd like to figure out which car if it is. Over 200,000 miles towing on it and never replaced the hubs.Regular trailer hubs would never do that without service. Not sure they would make it that far regardless really.
Reply:I can’t say as I think pick up hubs are going to be any stronger than trailer hubs. A big pickup has a gvwr of what 10000 pounds divided by 2 axles. Like anything there is better quality parts if you look deep enough and spend the money. Once you have the right parts it needs to be serviced regularly and properlyMillermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:I built quite a few axles. In the late 70s, early eighties I saw a flood of tractor powered generators, and wood splitters. The weight involved was within the range of small cars. Local junk yards were cheap in the day. If I got specific & wanted a pair of rears from an Audi, they cost hundreds. I could go to a local junk yard, ask for rears from a front wheel drive. Albert said: "Yeah, I got one a them Audys." $25. I left with cut off wheels, tires, hubs, bearings, spindles & brakes. I welded these to 2" 1/4" wall square tube. I had an axle.My wood splitter has Pinto front spindles. I think the tires may be original. I got them junk 39 years ago. I believe they were free.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:I built a bunch of light duty off the road farm type axles using those mobile home axles that everybody hates. I would cut the spindles out of the cheesy original tubes and turn the stub down to fit snug in 2.5" sch 80 pipe. Worked well for little fertilizer tanks and such. Built one trailer to fit 68" spud rows with 3 axles and they routinely put 15 tons on it... That's not what it was built for.
Reply:
Originally Posted by 12V71
I built a bunch of light duty off the road farm type axles using those mobile home axles that everybody hates. I would cut the spindles out of the cheesy original tubes and turn the stub down to fit snug in 2.5" sch 80 pipe. Worked well for little fertilizer tanks and such. Built one trailer to fit 68" spud rows with 3 axles and they routinely put 15 tons on it... That's not what it was built for.
Reply:I dont think you can build them with the springs and paraphernalia, for what they can be bought for. Unless you time has no value. i would love to build a set with hydraulic disc brakes, 2500 per axle seems rediculous But you salvage the whole axle assembly from whatever truck then you have a hub with bigger bearings but hollow, most rearends cost 3-500 from scrap yard, tubing around a 100, Still need to buy springs and and all the other stuff And hours of machining and fitting to get the brake calipers working right. I would be more tempted to try it of i found the rears with tires and wheels alreadyDo not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Reply:
Originally Posted by 12V71
I built a bunch of light duty off the road farm type axles using those mobile home axles that everybody hates. I would cut the spindles out of the cheesy original tubes and turn the stub down to fit snug in 2.5" sch 80 pipe. Worked well for little fertilizer tanks and such. Built one trailer to fit 68" spud rows with 3 axles and they routinely put 15 tons on it... That's not what it was built for.
Reply:
Originally Posted by farmersammm
The biggest cause of death with those tires is that people never inflate them to the proper pressure. IIRC they run at very high psi.I found an example........... https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Tir...a/AM10321.html
Reply:
Originally Posted by farmersammm
The biggest cause of death with those tires is that people never inflate them to the proper pressure. IIRC they run at very high psi.I found an example........... https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Tir...a/AM10321.html
Reply:The axles I have built are heavy duty farm trailers. 10 bolt implement hubs 4” diameter spindles. Just the hubs and spindles cost close to 800$ a few years ago. The front axle is lighter only used 8 bolt 3-1/2” diameter spindles there. But the trailer hauls over 20000 pounds with zero issuesMillermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:I did some tire work today, and thought to take some pics showing the difference between hub piloted, and stud piloted, wheels for the guys that don't know the difference.These are stud piloted wheels. They just rely on the studs to carry the weight.
Note how the wheel doesn't center on any machined surface on the hub. It's centered by the studs when they're tightened.
This is a half azzed hybrid. It's sorta hub piloted........but the pilot shoulder does NOT carry the weight. Consequently, they have a tendency to get ruined when the nuts come the tiniest bit loose, or the wheel center depresses with time. The shoulder on the hub only centers the wheel..........the bolts take the weight.
This particular hub was cleaned up, and a good shoulder was machined.
The new wheel center was machined to fit the shoulder exactly. Square shouldered bore riding on square shoulder. No play.See next post
Reply:
See how the wheel mates to the hub. About .003 clearance. This allows the wheel to transfer the weight directly to the hub without relying on the bolts/studs to carry the load. It's an exceptionally robust design.Dayton wheels are considered hub centric, which is basically the same thing. The wheel is held to the hub with wedges. The wedges keep the wheel on, but don't carry the weight. The hub carries the weight.
Reply:
Originally Posted by farmersammm
See how the wheel mates to the hub. About .003 clearance. This allows the wheel to transfer the weight directly to the hub without relying on the bolts/studs to carry the load. It's an exceptionally robust design.Dayton wheels are considered hub centric, which is basically the same thing. The wheel is held to the hub with wedges. The wedges keep the wheel on, but don't carry the weight. The hub carries the weight.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Oxford1
How does the hub carry the weight if theres clearance between the wheel bore and the hub shoulder? .003 is the same as .250- in both cases theres a gap. It makes it easier to put on, and the assembly doesnt rely on the bolt holes to center it as you assemble it, I understand that, but if theres an air gap, however small, theres no weight transfer. Its still the clamping force of the lug nuts that holds the wheel centered, seems to me.
Reply:Now ya got me worried
I need to run out now, and shave a piece of 20# uncoated printer paper (.004 thick) in half, to slip in there one either side of the wheel (so's it'll be balanced). Or a single hair (.004avg). Again gotta shave the diameter in half on the hair so it'll remain balanced.But I guess if it isn't an interference fit, it's got some slop in it.
Reply:And here is an excellent example of stud pilot wheels, notice there is zero hub support for the wheel. A lot of newer Budd hubs do have a pilot for the wheels, but not much.
And this one has the miserable inboard mount brake drums.Last edited by 12V71; 02-05-2021 at 06:59 PM.
Reply:For what it's worth, I have yet to see a nut piloted Budd wheel come loose, but plenty of hub pilot unimount wheels come loose.
Reply:
Originally Posted by M J D
For what it's worth, I have yet to see a nut piloted Budd wheel come loose, but plenty of hub pilot unimount wheels come loose.
Reply:I don't know, way different than I've seen. Big problem here is the rust and scale buildup that raises hell on both steel or aluminum wheels. Another reason the Budds seem to be trouble free is in most cases it's older trailers that don't see that many miles anymore. Of course the Budds still give the issues of the square drive snapping off and being a general PITA to remove without using the " pork chop" wrench.We have plenty of buds wheels. Here in the salt belt anti seize is your friend. I have welded nuts onto a fair number of inner nuts to get them offMillermatic 252millermatic 175miller 300 Thunderboltlincoln ranger 250smith torcheslots of bfh'sIf it dont fit get a bigger hammer
Reply:This thread has kind of wandered a bit but i have a couple of trucks with budd wheels now. my old truck had daytons i miss the daytons for roadside tire changes. With battery technology On the impacks i can still do My own roadside tire changes but its A lot more work. Need a 6’ cheater And a stack of 2x6 lumber if im doing it manual. But even the lazy can install a budd right in a tire store.Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Reply:Very few guys can just grasp that all ya gotta do with a Dayton is to put a piece of something next to the tire, look at it, spin it, and tighten the wedges so's it doesn't have a lot of runout. I can't tell ya how many times I've seen Daytons running down the road looking like the Wobble King. Takes about 5 minutes to true a wheel.
Reply:The only way it would pay to build your own 7000 lb axles is if you own a junk yard. By the time you buy all the stuff needed you could have purchased a new axle.
Reply:Best way to true an axle your building - use a 6" channel longer than your axle, mount wheels to spindles & set the wheels in the channel. If you want a little camber, just shim up the inside of the rim. Wheels in the channel will be square & true.
Reply:
Originally Posted by cwby
Best way to true an axle your building - use a 6" channel longer than your axle, mount wheels to spindles & set the wheels in the channel. If you want a little camber, just shim up the inside of the rim. Wheels in the channel will be square & true.
Reply:We have drifted off course a bit on building axles. My intent with this post was to demonstrate what can be built with 8 hole 250 and 350 axles from Chevy, Dodge and Ford. You have choices on drum or disc brakes. Most pre-1999 trucks have drum brakes and disc brakes after 1999. The big 3 trucks are all 8 hole hub piloted with different pilot dimensions and bolt circle diameters. Stud lengths will also vary. Initially, most trucks used the 8 lug X 6.5 bolt circle configuration, with be variable being the hub center dimension.The axle capacities of these trucks varies on tire size and whether it is the single wheel or dual wheel. Depending on hub configuration, longer studs may be required for dual wheels. The axles are generally 3-1/2 schedule 20 which makes the ID 3. Some later model trucks have thicker tube walls for increased GVW. In the build to follow, the 1999 to 2003 Ford 3-1/2 OD axles will be used. They are 8 lug X 170mm bolt circle. This series is a slight odd ball (Ford 1999-2003) and I went with it because thats all that was readily available.The trailer suppliers can offer all sorts of deals on light trailer axles. When reviewing the offerings, customers go for the max and gasp at the prices for a single axle let alone a dual. They start moving left on the axle list until they hit something that is within their budget and then tbey are bummed about what they can get.Not everyone on this form has all of the skills, money or resources to buy a new trailer and are hesitant to build one. I dont subscribe to the notion that it costs as much to build a trailer as it does to buy new. You have to be innovative, resourceful and a smart buyer. The only thing I buy from a dealer is a dual spring set and a hitch coupler or goose neck hitch.As far as the acquisition of the automotive parts, I use a local dismantler, named U Pull and Pay. There are others scattered across that offer the same kind of services. Prices are minimal and it doesnt matter what year or model the part came from. Their prices are listed on their websites or at the door. I plan on building a total of 3 trailers for different applications so I purchased enough hubs, u-bolts/plates and disc brake rotors to build the three. Not knowing how I will build all three, all are presumed to be dual axle.
Reply:This is a typical trailer you can build using the axles described in this post
Reply:Make sure you camber any axles you build. Same angles on both spindles. Have fun.
Reply:I'm not sure front spindles would work. Duals require a wider pilot shoulder. Front truck axles only have a shoulder wide enough for a single wheel..........................so...............my guess is that ya better go scroungin' for rear axles. Just have to cut the spindles off the tube, without damaging them, and mate them to a new tube.........which is gonna be fun since ya have spindles that are sized to the original axle tube on the truck. Then ya gotta somehow seal up the spindle so's it'll hold oil. More fun.
Reply:
Your local truck suspension people should be able to set accurate camber. Thankfully mine didn't need cambering when I built the new suspension under the Great Dane.
Reply:After reading again............you are using rear hubs?? Sorry about that.
Reply:FYI, these are 22.5 k axles and they have no camber. And they shouldnt need it unless the spindles get bent or worn. In both cases I would recomend replacement. Actually I have been replacing them when they need a full brake job including new cams. A complete axle is only 250-300 bucks more than the parts to do the brakes. Add new hubcaps, seals and bearings and it's a wash.
Reply:A quick tutorial for finding apex/top of camber on Meritor trailer axles. FYI
Camber locating hole is in the circled areaWhen spring perches are replaced, it's imperative to install them in the proper relation to axle camber.A partially drilled hole is located at the "top" of the camber bend.Place the new perch so that it's centered on the hole, while locating the other perch where it's to be welded to the axle. Using a straight piece of stock, transfer the location of the camber hole to the new perch location. Tack in place, and repeat the process for the other perch. Or, if you trust the straightedge, simply use it to locate the other perch off of the previously tacked perch.Other axles may vary by manufacturer.
Reply:
Originally Posted by farmersammm
I'm not sure front spindles would work. Duals require a wider pilot shoulder. Front truck axles only have a shoulder wide enough for a single wheel..........................so...............my guess is that ya better go scroungin' for rear axles. Just have to cut the spindles off the tube, without damaging them, and mate them to a new tube.........which is gonna be fun since ya have spindles that are sized to the original axle tube on the truck. Then ya gotta somehow seal up the spindle so's it'll hold oil. More fun.
Reply:
Originally Posted by sancobg
You're way off base on your assumption of what will be done to build the axles. I have 12 hubs/spindles on hand to build my axles. Take a deep breath, relax and wait for the action to begin.
Reply:I just found your old thread on the axle builds you did for a dump trailer.I see you used the rears like I figured ya'd have to do. And you set them up for grease instead of oil.The use of the round stock mated to the spindle was interesting. I'm not sure I'd do it that way. Although, you didn't show how the round stock was actually mated to the spindle, other than a fillet weld? I guess.I'm not gettin' my undies in a bunch...........either about fillets, or because this is a trailer (to me, a trailer doesn't differ from anything else as far as construction)IIRC, fillets are always in shear. Either transverse, or logitudinal?, depending on the direction the stress is applied. (been a long time since I read up on it). So.........they're load rated using a 'factor'. Take the dimensions of the fillet, along with the total length, and apply a derating factor. A reasonably sized fillet, with enough redundancy in terms of weld length, using 70K filler material, can have incredible strength even when derated...........provided the calculations are adhered to, and the weld is good. Of course...............we're not taking fatigue into consideration at this point. Fatigue is always the elephant in the room
So, I guess a 10K axle has a static load of around 5K per spindle. Quadruple it for shock loads, and you'd come up with maybe 20K per spindle. So, it's not out of the realm of possibility that a properly sized fillet would have the necessary Ksi to do the job.
Reply:Our forum member, thegary, wrote, The only way it would pay to build your own 7000 lb axles is if you own a junk yard. By the time you buy all the stuff needed you could have purchased a new axle.Axle weight ratings vary all over the place, the variables being tire size, number of plys, axle tube diameter, single or dual wheels and type of hubs. Ford used the same axle for the F250 and F350 (1999-2014) for single and dual wheel applications. This axle build will be based on the following:2001 F250/F350 Ford axles and hubs with disc brakes4 axle tube over 3-1/2 OEM housing235/85 R16 tires with E ratingSingle and dual wheels (your choice)Using Ford wheel assys, the max weight rating for single wheels is 6830 pounds and dual wheels is 11,112 pounds. The derating factor will be the rating of the tires. It is safe to say that a single axle trailer meets the 6,000 to 10,000 pound class and a dual axle with dual wheels meets the 15,000 to 20,000 pond class. We can argue about the numbers, however building your own gets you a lot more trailer capacity. You can truly build a trailer to suit your needs for length, width and weight capacity.Initially, I purchased 12 hub/bearing/disc, spindle assys from 1999-2014 Ford F250s. The complete removal was accomplished by cutting the axle housing 8 to 12 inward from the hub flange. The brake caliper is not included in this build.Hub, bearings, spindle and disc $16.17 Spring set 6 Leaf 30" x 3" $110.00 U-bolts/plate (2 sets) $4.50 Axle spring seat (2 pcs) $14.00 4 axle tube 1/4" wall(full retail) $64.00 Tires and Wheels (single used)$84.00 Total$292.67 I just don't know where you can buy a 7000 # axle for $300.
This is an earlier axle build where I used just the spindle. Used a 6" X 3" bar slug and fit the 3" well in the spindle. A few solid hits with the leather mallet seated the slug into the spindle. Welded the spindle and the slug together. Cut the tube to size and cleaned the burrs with an emery cloth. Beveled the tube and pressed the 3" slug into the tube and welded.
Reply:This is a future project just haven't decided what I'm going to do with it
Attached Images
Reply:
Originally Posted by farmersammm
A quick tutorial for finding apex/top of camber on Meritor trailer axles. FYI
Camber locating hole is in the circled areaWhen spring perches are replaced, it's imperative to install them in the proper relation to axle camber.A partially drilled hole is located at the "top" of the camber bend.Place the new perch so that it's centered on the hole, while locating the other perch where it's to be welded to the axle. Using a straight piece of stock, transfer the location of the camber hole to the new perch location. Tack in place, and repeat the process for the other perch. Or, if you trust the straightedge, simply use it to locate the other perch off of the previously tacked perch.Other axles may vary by manufacturer.
Reply:https://www.meritor.com/products/axl...er-axles/mtec6 Click on the "+" sign next to the slack adjuster, and you'll see where I'm coming from. Nobody knows all there is to know about everything. They still camber axles. The locator hole is still where it's always been.Ask yourself...............is it really smart to run a straight axle, considering that just about every structure deflects? Some things ok, some things not. It just depends.I didn't believe that my axles were cambered as much as they looked by eyeballing them............then I put a straightedge on them, and found out that my eyes weren't lying. Is what it is I guess. I didn't have problem with it.
Reply:Might note............these were originally set up with air bags, and I switched them over to springs. That might have something to do with it (shrug)
Reply:Maybe they don't still camber them
My Great Dane is circa 1982
Had to let that sink in for while. I dont think in terms of years. I think in terms of what I'm working on.
Reply:
Originally Posted by farmersammm
Maybe they don't still camber them
My Great Dane is circa 1982
Had to let that sink in for while. I dont think in terms of years. I think in terms of what I'm working on.
Reply:
Originally Posted by 12V71
I think quite a bit of that has to do with weight saving. If you don't mind a heavier axle, so be it. The Meritor is always pushing weight saving features that lead me to believe that they are using a thinner tube wall. |
|
发表于 2021-9-1 23:18:00