stair rail challenge

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I've made a bit of a problem for myself. Client opened a staircase into their basement and refinished their basement to add living space. Older home, steep stair, code isn't really an issue but I'm sticking as close as I can. Right hand descending stair straight down to three triangular treads turning 90 degrees clockwise. To make the level balcony rail and stair rail continuous, the grab rail is on the right hand side descending, meaning that the rail is on the inside of the curve at the bottom, and there is the problem.As the width of the triangular treads approaches 0, the rise approaches vertical. So, after descending straight some 108" at 40.3 degrees, the handrail "should" fall another three rises (+/- 21") in almost no length while rotating 90 degrees. While it is possible to do this as one might for the inside rail of a tight spiral, I don't think it will look right. Switching sides to the outside or the curve isn't a good option, since I want the grab rail continuous. Also, though code isn't really an issue, the landing or rectangular area formed by the 90 degree turn is already shorter than it is wide, which shouldn't be so I'm at least trying not to narrow it any further with the rail.I've thought about doing a very short level off at the bottom of the straight stair and turning 180 degrees to terminate against the stringer wall. Or turning the 90 degrees and dropping a post but both leave the grab rail very high on the down side. A true vertical section of grab rail as the bottom post? Just wondering how others might have solved similar problems.Thanks for your thoughts.
Reply:What is on the left side? I may have missed it, ....
Reply:Double postLast edited by tapwelder; 11-02-2016 at 04:29 PM.
Reply:

Originally Posted by tapwelder

What is on the left side? I may have missed it, ....
Reply:I would try to do some sort of spiral,  that way it can be used as a continuous handrail,  I feel that if you use sharp Elbows,  it will make it harder to run ones hand down it.  Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:They usually put a newel post at such a position. Sincerely, William McCormickIf I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Reply:The rail will be useless and unsafe on the inside.  You are encouraging folk to walk near the edge and essentially climb a ladder.  Spiral stairs require the wedge be 7 in wide at 12in from the center, yet the hand rail is on the outside.I don't know your situation/stair setup.  I would try to use the other side.  Create space wherever possible.  If there is a guard then move it to the outside of the step.I got a call 2 weeks ago.  Similar situation with 30in drop. Had a newel at the corner.  Lady wanted steel to replace wood.  House only 20 yrs old in a neighborhood with similar stair design issues.  Makes you appreciate codes.
Reply:[QUOTE=tapwelder;7816781]The rail will be useless and unsafe on the inside.  Good point. Outside it is. Funny thing is I have the same problem in my own house where a previous owner finished the attic and put a stair in a place it won't fit.
Reply:My old boss built a spiral staircase for a customer and later,  at their request,  he added a handrail on the inside.  It can be done, and I don't think it would be useless.  Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:It is not a spiral with a regular rise.  There is a 21 inch vertical drop on the inside. I am sensitive about stairs,  I took on a job ( 5 staircases in 2 houses) a couple years ago.  I neglected to determine if the new house would accomadate stairs.  Completed everything 3 month late and upset contractor and home owner and modded house. I understand this scenario on a remodel but not a newly "designed" house. So welders/fabricators can do much, but can't make a house grow.  Keep this job simple and safe.
Reply:No one will use the outside rail. Everyone will put their hand on the inside wall and just rotate around the stairs. When your hand is on the rail you are almost centered in a three foot stair. This is how I would make it. It is a lot of work you can spend a whole day making that rail and painting it.  



Sincerely, William McCormickIf I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Reply:

Originally Posted by William McCormick

No one will use the outside rail. Everyone will put their hand on the inside wall and just rotate around the stairs. When your hand is on the rail you are almost centered in a three foot stair. This is how I would make it. It is a lot of work you can spend a whole day making that rail and painting it.  



Sincerely, William McCormick
Reply:Young folk might not mind pulling up a vertical hand rail you could put a rope at the bottom.  However, as you come down the stair the rail disappears.  So first time competitors (in the events of grip strength,reaction/recognition  and pullup) and older folk might have difficulty navigating the course. I can imagine some person at the bottom wondering how to get up the stair.  If folk need the rail, then they will use it wherever it is.
Reply:

Originally Posted by tapwelder

Young folk might not mind pulling up a vertical hand rail you could put a rope at the bottom.  However, as you come down the stair the rail disappears.  So first time competitors (in the events of grip strength,reaction/recognition  and pullup) and older folk might have difficulty navigating the course. I can imagine some person at the bottom wondering how to get up the stair.  If folk need the rail, then they will use it wherever it is.
Reply:Thanks for the newel history lesson. However, by code standard you could have legal issues with the design on the inside. That is clearly not a legal rail.  The outside could be made legal and be defendable.  Financially, buildwise it is cheaper to put everything on the inside. It is so common it might be confused with professional.  However code inspector could fail a rail made in that manner. . Realizing codes in not involved here.I actually missed the fact that the turn was at the bottom.  The rail I referenced had a 30 " in drop in the middle of the run.  Nothing professional about that.Ironically, many years ago a builder had me add a grab rail to the opposite side of a set of stairs and remove the grab rail from the guard I had built. Their argument was folk walked opposite the open side. My reasoning was I only wanted to build and install one complete unit.So, Choose your side...
Reply:

Originally Posted by tapwelder

Thanks for the newel history lesson. However, by code standard you could have legal issues with the design on the inside. That is clearly not a legal rail.  The outside could be made legal and be defendable.  Financially, buildwise it is cheaper to put everything on the inside. It is so common it might be confused with professional.  However code inspector could fail a rail made in that manner. . Realizing codes in not involved here.I actually missed the fact that the turn was at the bottom.  The rail I referenced had a 30 " in drop in the middle of the run.  Nothing professional about that.Ironically, many years ago a builder had me add a grab rail to the opposite side of a set of stairs and remove the grab rail from the guard I had built. Their argument was folk walked opposite the open side. My reasoning was I only wanted to build and install one complete unit.So, Choose your side...
Reply:Take a look at the outside rail that would be hard to navigate in fact no one would use it because you really cannot use it. I also reversed the drawing to match the OP's description. I guarantee that someone holding onto the handrail on the outside will eventually fall off the second plateau sideways while stepping from the third plateau to the second.



If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Reply:I have seen little kids loose their grip on the newel post, and slip on the stairs, or they slipped on the stairs and lost their grip on the newel post, it looked like they were going down a slide at the park. Then they do it for fun. Sincerely, William McCormickIf I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Reply:It is cheaper and easier to provide only a guard with a non code compliant grab rail attached than to provide a guard and a code compliant grab rail to the wall. The inside rail in code compliant, safe a easier to navigate. If a person falls regardless of which side the rail is on then the could take you to court.  What would be your argument for providing only a guard rail with a non compliant grab rail attached?Sorry we are off the topic.  However folk building rails Should know one cannot always follow accepted example. Hope it helps somebody consider what they build and how to construct rails safely.Also, the rail builder is not responsible for the choice of usage of the rail.  We are only responsible for providing a compliant rail.
Reply:Ugh. Just got auto logged off and lost my reply. Long story short, thanks for all your thoughtful input and especially to those of you who who bothered to render the space so that everyone could visualize the problem. To be clear, there is a lot of handwork in this job and I have quite a bit of experience with stairs, which I don't say to seem cocky but I offer as context when I explain that I'm not looking for the cheapest or easiest solution and the time difference or technical differences between one solution and another will not end up being the biggest challenges I face or make significant changes to the budget or profit. This is a slow and expensive kind of job and while money is always the object, I am looking for the most elegant and functional solution that doesn't involve going backwards. As to codes as I understand them in private residential settings, the guard and hand rail may/should be the same and stairs narrower than "x" may have a rail on only one side. So in retrospect, I might have done better to push the clients harder toward placing a decorative fill panel on the open side and going with a wall rail, but I didn't and now I'm committed to having the rail on the open side (inside of the curve at the bottom) because the top levels off and returns to form a continuous grip with a level balcony rail that closes the stair opening. This job will involve compromises with codes and the compliance concern is more mine than the client's but I do recognize my obligation to provide something safe and functional. Thanks.
Reply:Post some pics if you can,  I'd love to see what you come up with Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

http://www.philswelding.com
Reply:

Originally Posted by birdly

Ugh. Just got auto logged off and lost my reply. Long story short, thanks for all your thoughtful input and especially to those of you who who bothered to render the space so that everyone could visualize the problem. To be clear, there is a lot of handwork in this job and I have quite a bit of experience with stairs, which I don't say to seem cocky but I offer as context when I explain that I'm not looking for the cheapest or easiest solution and the time difference or technical differences between one solution and another will not end up being the biggest challenges I face or make significant changes to the budget or profit. This is a slow and expensive kind of job and while money is always the object, I am looking for the most elegant and functional solution that doesn't involve going backwards. As to codes as I understand them in private residential settings, the guard and hand rail may/should be the same and stairs narrower than "x" may have a rail on only one side. So in retrospect, I might have done better to push the clients harder toward placing a decorative fill panel on the open side and going with a wall rail, but I didn't and now I'm committed to having the rail on the open side (inside of the curve at the bottom) because the top levels off and returns to form a continuous grip with a level balcony rail that closes the stair opening. This job will involve compromises with codes and the compliance concern is more mine than the client's but I do recognize my obligation to provide something safe and functional. Thanks.
Reply:Keep on the right side, the 3 riser drop at the winder is fine
Reply:any stair builders in your area? I realize they may not be helpful since it's not their job and they're usually woodworkers, but they're the "experts" in stairs - locally here is Jed Dixon -http://northroadstair.com/ - great guy and more interested in doing things well than who's doing it - couldn't hurt to reach out to him - hopefully not stepping on toes here - just a quick thoughtMerry Christmas to all!