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Hi, new to welding here. Looking into purchasing my first welder. My two choices are Miller mulitmatic 215 or ESAB Rebel 215ic. I wanted to know the requirements for the electrical panel. I dont have many open spots in the panel.. I have 200amp service to the house. I wanted to have an outlet put in the garage.My question is what size circuit breaker do i need? I see in the documentation it says a NEMA Type 6−50P. Does that mean it needs to be a 50amp breaker? I thought I read somewhere 30amp breaker. What wire gauge size would I need? Not sure if I will run the line myself or have an electrician do it, but I do need to know what to ask for.Also, any recommendation over the Miller 215 or the Esab Rebel 215? I want to use it for fixing things around the house. Probably some stick welding and repairing a small aluminum boat using a spool gun.
Reply:I was going to look but it's slow,, if it lists a 30 breaker the minimum wire is 14 single circuit in pipe. Use 12 or better.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:You'll need at least a 30 amp breaker feeding the line you run for the welder... a 50 would be better
either one could feed the nema 6-50p outlet but the wire size you run will dictate which breaker. If the run isn't over 20-30 wire feet then the cost won't be much different... actually even at 50-60 feet it wouldn't cost that much more to run #8 vs. #10
Reply:8 is 2 sizes, maybe 3 bigger than the machine needs. There isn't anything rely wrong with that but it's not the requirement.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Yeah, and I have had machines burn up from too much drop because a friend told me it was ok to use a smaller extension cord to run my equipment.... if he's only running a couple feet from the main panel then sure... go smaller/cheaper but anything else I would personally stay with larger wire
Reply:I have never had it happen. Hundreds of tools, thousands of hours. I don't think the minumums are a great idea including the terminations being light and need special care but,, last one I hook for allowed 48 ft of 14. Using a 12 is a huge leap and well suffecient at that distance. Miller designed it that way and put a good warranty on it, they could have said 12 or even 10 but these standards have been in place for decades and millions of machines. Some since they invent the buzz box. Installed by licenced masters back when voltage was 220,,, some will run 208, they not suffering drop on 240 + and they run even better today on wire with better coatings, over 20 volts better service. One of the advantages of a new machines IS the lower power requirements. Let's a guy wire it at 30 cents a foot vs 3$.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Guys, thank you for the replies. My main panel is around 50 feet from the garage. I have a subpanel near the garage that used for laundry etc its running on a 60amp breaker. I would need to make some room in the subpanel to squeeze in a 30amp breaker.Would I be better off running a 50amp breaker from main panel into the garage? Would this allow a better option if I decided to get a plasma cutter or upgrade welder? From the replies I'm seeing 14ga, 12ga, 10ga, 8ga? Is 12ga or 10ga a happy medium?.Would BX wire be ok to use or Romex?
Reply:If you plan on getting a plasma then Id say you would be better off running a 100amp drop from the main to the garage if that is an option. Plasma requires an air compressor plus power to run the machine. How many 120 outlets do you have in the garage now and are they all 15amp circuits or do you have any 20amp 120v circuits in the garage. If you are spending the money to run a 50 drop you might at well leave some extra amps for future improvements.Lincoln, ESAB, Thermal Dynamics, Victor, Miller, Dewalt, Makita, Kalamzoo. Hand tools, power tools, welding and cutting tools.
Reply:From the sounds of it you need to run a separate sub panel.... most people start laundry then go on to do something else.... like welding plasma etc.... and a 60 isn't big enough to run laundry and weld at the same time... especially not plasma!!!
Reply:Depends on the machines. Is the laundry electric dryer? Do you have to weld, dry, make air the same time? 60 will sup port a modest comp and modest plasma. It would weld and dry on 60. As for we for the welder, 10 leaves a little room for using a different machine which is unlikely since the 215 will do sticks too. Some of this might depend on wire I had on hand. Use 12 minimum, it's required if it's cable and well good to 50 ft for a 215 Multimatic.10 is a bit better, fits the connectors on the recept a little better. Doesn't appear this is going to be a commercial welding shop, bit different for those who aspire to be career welders with lots of machines. Personally run a new wire specifically to a home for new machines. I use 10 if I got buy, use 6 or 8 if it's free but,,,I have 10 machines and that covers the heaviest that I have goes into 50A. I have a couple spools of 10, I use it on my 30's too.Last edited by Sberry; 11-03-2019 at 11:59 AM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Ok, maybe I'm jumping the gun here and day dreaming. I'm looking into getting my first welder. I have a handful of project I know I want to do. Who knows I might not be that into welding and I will never want or need a plasma cutter. My main panel is all filled up. I would need to clear up some space on the panel by getting dual breakers. What gauge wire would you need to run a 100amp breaker to a subpanel?.If I go with the 50amp breaker 10 or 12 gauge wire?
Reply:10 cable is allowed on 50 for welders and is substantially better than 12 for 50. 10 is not allowed for panel to panel,,, only welder. 12 is allowed on 50 but,,,,, only single circuit in pipe. It's rather marginal for machines heavier than the 215,, for it would be legal and work but no real reason for a breaker heavier than 30,, only matters for larger units. Clear as mud?www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Sberry, lol.... can you reword that for me?10 gauge is good from main panel to outlet for welder?10 gauge is not allowed to use from main panel to subpanel?I would not use a 50amp breaker only 30amp breaker from main panel to welder outlet?
Reply:10 not allowed panel to panel at 50,, at 30 ok. 10 ok from panel to welder up to 50A. 10 is super good at 30 for a welder and or but legal to 50. There is no reason to use a 50 here,,for a 215.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Thanks for the clarification.... Can I use BX or Romex to run the line from the main panel to the welder outlet? One thing I dont like is my main panel is inside the house near the bedrooms and open up the sheet rock . I would have to run the line from the panel up the wall into the attic, across the attic and drop down in the garage.Any opinion on the Miller 215 or ESAB rebel 215ic?
Reply:That's the pretty normal way to do it, or go under depending on how the garage sets.
Reply:Yes, bx or Romex, but,, it must be a size bigger than the minimum listed in the panel. Now,, this is a bit of theory but the breaker in this type of circuit is not to protect the wire from thermal, that is from the applied load. In other words,, the machine only draws 20A. etc, the breaker is only for short circuit. You could run 2 machines from 50 on 12 provided they eachanged had their own wire to the breaker or they were tapped to 6 or 8 wire. The combination will not overload the wire.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Houses are wired as an after thought for sure. I was in a garage the other day, had a 100A sub, I breaker in it, drywall ed around it tight as a nun cunny. 19 free spaces, no good way to get at it except below it which I did to install a welder outlet.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Try #18 lamp cord. It's plenty heavy.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
Try #18 lamp cord. It's plenty heavy.
Reply:Call an electrician as neither you nor most all here know what they are talking about. 14ga wtf ?http://www.PlasmaMetalCutter.comGiantTech Cut40DGiantTech Cut50DGiantTech CT520DGiantTech Tig200sGiantTech Arc200GiantTech Tig200PACDCMiller MM210No Brand Chinese Chop SawNo Brand Chinese 4" Angle Grinder
Reply:
Originally Posted by GiantTechGuy
Call an electrician as neither you nor most all here know what they are talking about. 14ga wtf ?
Reply:Quickest and easiest route would be to add a 30amp CB to sub panel and feed a single welder circuit in the geeerage.10g wire, a 30amp CB & 6-50 receptacle. That will get you up and welding and within the input specs for the MM215.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:10/30 is a tailor made circuit for this class of machine. It gives these little welders all the help they can get from the wall. I am not sure how much difference it is for inverters. I can tell a bit of difference with a 140 wire feed with 50 ft of 14 vs 12. Got to change the setting just a fuzz.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:You mentioned stick welding. Maybe you should get an inverter stick welder and see if you like welding before you commit to a bigger welder. It's a fun process and it's best that you start with it. I have no experience with either machine, but the Rebel seem to have an edge with 5 whopping more amps and higher voltage on the MIG side and a 25% duty cycle as apposed to 20% on the Miller. I also heard complaints about the front dial being wobbly and feels cheap on the Esab. Both well reviewed machines, but Miller is a bigger name if that translates to better warranty service and resale value.Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMiller Dynasty 280 DX TIGRunnerFronius Transsteel 2200Did you happen to look up the wiring guide on the Esab? It certainly doesnt mean its the same? In US Miller is bigger. I have read most of the manuals for Miller, some for Linc in smaller machines, not many of yellow. I think some of their 250 class are heavy duty like the MM252 but don't really work with them. Do the new 200 class use dvi?www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I see the Rebel is dvi, the wire size is 12 compared to the Miller of 14. Doesn't have the exact same adapter, has an internal thermal breaker in the machine. Something noteworthy is where it says, low voltage may cause loss of power and poor operation, hi overheats it.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Here are the electrical specs for the ESAB I found:
Reply:I was looking at this thread:https://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.ph...for-a-hobbyistI was thinking maybe I should look into a used Miller 211 transformer type if I can find one. I realize it wont do stick welding any thoughts?
Reply:What is your budget?Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:If they are for sale? Most people gets them keep em. Along with budget what is the work? Sticks do have their place for field work and some machinery. Having said that I can really do what I do with a 211. My neighbor is typical except for an expert,, but typical needs, hasn't been over in 15 years to weld something since he got a 175. He got a pickup, a snowplow, couple little trailers, bandsaw mill etc and gets along just dandy. I like stick outdoor, on equipment, trailers, implement, pit stop structural stuff. Construction, hop around, drag a lead. If you are doing hobby/auto not such a deal. Wire feed works, rest gathers dust.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:My budget is around $1500 to $2000. I'm open to maybe spending a little more if I have to but i don't have anything else for welding like a table, tank, welding helmet, metal chopsaw, pliers, gloves etc.I have a handful of jobs i need to do around the house such as: Detached hand railing on stairswrought iron gate repairmake a mulch plate to cover my scag mower chutefix up my 12ft aluminum boat.make a welding table.
Reply:If you want to do alum the cheapest way is spool gun. They list the use down to 14ga but I do 16 on it regularly. The industry has had a hard time raising prices on basic models, hence all the features. Most of them I really got no use for, auto this and that, they have limited use. Some models are near the same price the were 30 years ago, makes them a good buy. I might look at a basic unit, Hobart 190 or 210 if you need dvi, spool gun ready. A grand or so, I don't recall exact. Great arc, very reliable. If you do steady diet of auto body then 023 wire, if general these units run 030 well, small enough for light sheet and big enough to carry current for more punch for structural.Last edited by Sberry; 11-06-2019 at 10:30 AM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:As for other stuff. Since this is start out its different than what professionals often have, there is a lot of amateur advice from them. Grinder, 4 1/2 from Walmarts, 2 is better. Blades for sawzall, some cut off wheels and a couple 1/4. A welding hood, I actually like the HF better than some expensive ones, simple leather gloves you like. Pair of safety glasses. Some soapstoNE and sharpie markers. Find some kind of plate steel, I like 1/4 for this type thing, can set on horses or makeshift stand/bench for now. Some 11R vise grips, couple 6 r and search for some simple decent screw clamps and a pipe clamp.440 Channelock, 8 and 12 inch adjustable and a couple squares. Remodels secret weapon,,, maroone Scotchbrite.Last edited by Sberry; 11-06-2019 at 11:02 AM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:MM211 $1,315.00Rebate $150Welder $1,165.00Spoolmate 150 $458.00Total $1,623.00Hobart Handler MVP 210 WITH spool gun $999.00 Northern ToolC25 shielding gas for Mild steel- depends where ya live but probably looking at $200.00Argon for Alooominum.Then all the rest of the tools that Sberry mentioned.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:The Miller I originally wanted to get was the Miller 215https://store.cyberweld.com/mimu200muwe9.htmlI may take a look at the Hobart MVP 210.If I found a used Miller 211 transformer type welder what would be a fair price to pay? What would be considered too much?
Reply:I'm not sure the added Stick and Tig feature are worth it. But that's just me.
It will bust the budget fo' sho though, by the time you add a spool gun, tanks of gas and the rest of the stuff.I wasn't a fan of the transformer MM211- had one. Hated it and sold it. BUT I know a lot of folks like them.I browse CL and never see them listed.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Out of curiosity what didnt you like about the 211?What did you sell it for?
Reply:My progression.Learned on a Lincoln Weld Pac 100 120v machine.Then I purchased the Lincoln 135 Plus 120v ( Lived in an apt with a small garage)I liked both of those. Met up with a couple of guys from the forum at a Welding Meet/Get together and was able to try out the Miller Passport Plus. I was blown away with it's ability on 120v and smooth arc. Even using the spool gun with some AL wire on 120v. The Passport is an inverter based design and I really liked the arc characteristics. Best I can describe.I needed a welding machine to keep at home as I kept the Passport at the shop- bought the MM211 transformer as it was a wee bit cheaper than buying another Passport. Mainly for my wife's welding/art projects.She even noticed the difference in the arc and asked for the Passport back
Kept the MM211 at work and it just never felt "good". It worked and all but just differently. The short whips on the small machines were starting to bother us so we spent some $$ for a longer whip- it did come attached to the MM252
We sold the MM211- I think for $800.00 - about 6/7 years ago. I think the original price on the MM211 was 1k. It was on CL for a couple hours, people like the Blue machines.I still prefer the Passport out of all the machines, even the 252.I imagine since the new machines are inverter based I'd like them too.again though- lots of people like their transformer MM211.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I own the ESAB Rebel 215ic, bought it when it first came out, it's a great machine. I use it mostly for MIG and flux core for 14g - 1/2 in steel. It runs fine off of 20 amp circuit for 14 ga, anything heavier I run it off my generator. I upgraded to the Rebel from the ESAB miniarc 161, which was a fantastic machine if you just want to do just stick welding, at 1/3 the cost of the Rebel. But since upgrading to the Rebel I've only used the stick welding function 1 time and that was to burn holes in thick metal. For thinner gauge metal like 14-11 ga, I find it much easier to get quality welds with MIG/Flux core. Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Reply:
Originally Posted by jd442
Here are the electrical specs for the ESAB I found:
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
That chart is kind of interesting. Note the 2 different max ocpd ratings,, ha. I bet that's confusing to more than one diy type, maybe even some pros.
Reply:I understand this but is it clear to the diy that reads it? The "13" wire it lists is only good for 30A, with a larger wire it is allowed on up to 50.Last edited by Sberry; 12-05-2019 at 09:54 PM.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:You find most welder use 6-50 plug.I have welder that came with 6-50 plug and needs 20 amp breaker.Now wiring for a new welder , run for 50 amps and 6-50R even need smaller breaker, it save money later. Dave
Originally Posted by jd442
Hi, new to welding here. Looking into purchasing my first welder. My two choices are Miller mulitmatic 215 or ESAB Rebel 215ic. I wanted to know the requirements for the electrical panel. I dont have many open spots in the panel.. I have 200amp service to the house. I wanted to have an outlet put in the garage.My question is what size circuit breaker do i need? I see in the documentation it says a NEMA Type 6−50P. Does that mean it needs to be a 50amp breaker? I thought I read somewhere 30amp breaker. What wire gauge size would I need? Not sure if I will run the line myself or have an electrician do it, but I do need to know what to ask for.Also, any recommendation over the Miller 215 or the Esab Rebel 215? I want to use it for fixing things around the house. Probably some stick welding and repairing a small aluminum boat using a spool gun.
Reply:NEC 630.12(A) Overcurrent protection shall be not more than 200% of I1max. If I1max is not given, 200% of rated primary current of the welder.Sometimes there is no standard available overcurrent device at 200%. If the next smaller overcurrent device results in unnecessary nuisance tripping, it can be upgraded to the next higher available device.I have never seen nuisance tripping much higher than I1max, or rated input. A 60 amp I1max, or rated primary, I would begin with a 60 amp breaker. I've never powered a NEMA 6-50 receptacle with more than a 60 amp breaker, or smaller wire than #6 copper. The Lincoln big as a refrigerator in my garage is hard wired with #2, and 100 amp breaker.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:The 255 will certainly tolerate a 60, the only pRobles is other machines may use the same outlet, machines limited to 50A. To the other poster,, this is a little about what I was getting at. Your machine that comes with a 50 end is legal on a 50 circuit. A 20 or 30 is the Max when used with the minimum wire size. On a larger wire,,,, one able to support short circuit it's legal to use on 50. It comes with 50 end, if it was limited to 20 or 30 would come with those ends. The instructions are written for electricians, the manuals really need a lay section due to diy on these small machines.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:I admire Willies fine mind for electric, years ahead of mine, I will never get there.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:
Originally Posted by Sberry
I understand this but is it clear to the diy that reads it? The "13" wire it lists is only good for 30A, with a larger wire it is allowed on up to 50.
Reply:One thing to remember the minimum wire sizes are single circuit in pipe, a cable needs a size larger. With the Esab,,, it would be limited to 30 with a "13" wire (here the Hobarts and others list 14/30, if it was 12 in pipe or 10 cable could use a 50, same as a buzzer. BTW, never had a 50 welder trip a 50. Had one trip a 40 once ironically at lower current running nickel. Never had one trip up throwing the switch on. Used a lot of them over decades, first 10 years must have used a hundred different machines.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Melting alloy fuses are the fastest acting I've dealt with. Circuit breakers, less so.Welders aren't actually doing work when you turn them on. Motors are the worst. I have a number of 15 and 16 amp power tools. They routinely blow a 20 amp breaker the instant of start up. I don't believe inverters have much inrush at all. Transformers less than motors. I used to use a lot of 5/32" SMAW rods, they'd blow a 60 amp breaker now & then. I figured time to let the welder & breaker cool. The Lincoln 300-300 Rated 60% duty cycle at 300 amps, but capable of well over 400 amps would trip a 60 every start up.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared. |
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发表于 2021-9-1 23:16:23