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I don't have it yet, it's being shipped as we speak. I hope to have it next week. In light of this, I have started this thread since I've never seen one in person, nor wired it up. The unit is a 30HP from Southern Phase Converters in Texas. The unit is "new", but I bought it 2nd hand since I was able to save a few hundred. In the meantime while it gets here, I wanted to talk about power input. To do that, I think we need to look at anticipated power consumption, which will be at most 36A (I1max) @ 230V while on 3-Φ (from the ►machine electrical spec sticker◄). By my calculations, that is equivalent to 14.4kW. The ►motor spec sheet◄ says 93.6 efficiency. So it would at most consume 15.4kW. Working backwards, that seems to indicate that it will pull 63A from the 240V 1-Φ supply side.Do I have that correct thus far?
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Reply:I come up with the same figures. I'd be worried about the inrush to start current that motor in the phase converter though, since it's rated for so much more than you'll be running it at. Does it have ratings for that?Everlast 350 EXT - Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52 - Rogue Fabrication M600 xHD tube benderMilwaukee 4208 Mag Drill - Shopmaster Eldorado Combo mill/lathe machine with DRO.
Reply:I didn't see such a rating on the spec sheet. Are you talking about the in-rush to initially get it up to speed when it is flipped on? Or something else?
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Reply:Highly unlikely you will feed it with 240 volts. If your voltage even occasionally falls far below, efficiency will change sharply. Lets factor 225 volts, 80% efficiency. This is a motor, we size motor circuit conductors at 125%. The reality is you bought a BIG phase converter.Wait a minute! Three phase, 1 HP is about an amp at 600 volts. At 230 volts Full load current is about 80 amps. I'd figure 80 amp output. X 80% efficiency. Effectively 100 amps for conversion purposes at 80% efficiency gives you rated output. roughly 100 amps (a bit less) Full load of something close to 173 amps. Don't panic, you won't likely pull full load.Keep in mind 1 HP at 100% efficiency is 746 watts. 30 HP X 746 is 22380 watts You won't power 30 HP at 746 watts per, There is some waste in the motor. 1000 watts is a conservative estimate, or 30,000 watts. At 230 volts that'd be 130 amps. But we factor Three phase at 1.73 so 75 amps output. 30,000 At 230 volt single phase is 130 Amps. I would expect your converter is overrated. Regardless, you won't likely power 30 hp motorsI will be interested in the installation instructions. I have a 6 horsepower vacuum cleaner draws 12 amps single phase 120. 6 X 746 = 4476 watts. Actual draw is 1440 watts. Somebody is fibbing!Last edited by Willie B; 05-06-2020 at 07:49 PM.An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:Oscar,The 30 hp phase converter is good for 15 hp of load.I would size the input at near full rating.#1's from panel to the converter A and B single phase inputs and 100 amp breaker.From A, B and C from converter panel to the idler you would use #8s.Then from your A and B inputs and the C coming back from idler you feed your 3 phase panel with #4's. >>>> NEVER use the A and B for the idler for anything else but converter panel to the idler ONLY.If not using a panel to split up loads or set your self up for future then just run what your powering with only the size wire it requires. Be sure to provide proper over current protection as soon as you leave the phase converter. Smart to have some way to kill power at the machine too if the panel or disconnect is far from the phase converter.Last edited by danielplace; 05-06-2020 at 07:52 PM.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
Highly unlikely you will feed it with 240 volts.
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
Oscar,The 30 hp phase converter is good for 15 hp of load.
Reply:They are typically rated for single motor horsepower & multi motor. It might be rated at 30 hp cumulative, but 11 or 12 single. Do you have a 30 HP machine to power?An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
They are typically rated for single motor horsepower & multi motor. It might be rated at 30 hp cumulative, but 11 or 12 single. Do you have a 30 HP machine to power?
Reply:You want that last 50 amp from 350 to 400 ? You have 40 amp to spare and welder only needs 34-35 amp on 240 ? approx.
Last edited by danielplace; 05-06-2020 at 09:31 PM.
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
You want that last 50 amp from 350 to 400. You have 40 amp to spare and welder only needs 34 amp on 240 ? approx.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
Yes, that is what I figured, just slightly less than 36A since I have a good solid 245-247V coming into the house.So back to my initial investigation, how do my calculations look?
Reply:I’ve been running a Phase-a-matic 30 hp RPC in my shop for around 10 years. It powers a 22hp wide belt sander, a 5 hp dust collection blower, a 10hp air compressor, 5 hp radial arm saw and a 5 hp jump saw. Typically I’m running the wide belt sander and the dust collection system at the same time.Mine requires at least a 100A breaker. Occasionally it will trip the breaker if there is a lot of load on the belt sander. The current in-rush is significant when starting the converter.As Willie B indicated, there will likely be a voltage drop when you have the equipment running. My meters read 240 when only the lights are on in the shop, but when the RPC is running the voltage has dropped to around 228. With the wide belt sander also running, I’ve seen it below 220.Miller Trailblazer Pro 350DMiller Suitcase MIGMiller Spectrum 2050Miller Syncrowave 250DXLincoln 210MP
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
Oscar,The single phase amps is close to 1.5 times the amps of three phase you intend to deliver. Using the 1.5 of 35 it is like 53 amp.The input wire size and amp I believe they suggest for that RPC is actually 130 amps on #1's I believe. #1's or #2 on a 100 will run that machine I believe and still have some breathing room.I say 100 but if that panel has a 125 available that will go in it then go 125. What brand/model panel is it you will be feeding the RPC from ? How many amps is the service feeding the panel ? How much existing load is on the service ?
Reply:You can't use 90° rating on wire. Once it terminate in a lug of lesser rating the entire circuit must be downgraded. You just use the 60° to be safe even though there may be more 75° terminations available but surely no 90° at all. The 30 hp they say is good for approx 42 amp with that type of load.Similar to starting a single 15 hp motor. But if that is all you ever anticipate ever needing out of it I do believe a 60 amp with #6 or #4 would function perfectly.Based off charts supplied by a manufacturer of similar 30hp rotary phase converters.
Your subpanel panel size is your answer. Use it all. Install a 100 amp and #2 and call it maxed and know you can't ever do it any better without busting the bank. If your looking for the least install then go 60 - 70 amp with #4'sLast edited by danielplace; 05-07-2020 at 12:58 AM.
Reply:Thanks for the info, duly noted. I got a hold of the instructions from the seller. Sheet says 80A breaker with 4awg, so I guess that would be the absolute bare minimum. I can always upgrade since it's a very short run from the main panel to the sub-panel. It's only about 15ft.
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Reply:I would take advantage of all you have. 100 in 100 out.Put a 100 on it and #3's(or #2's if wanted) and know you did all you could without subpanel feeder upgrades at least. I honestly think that is best route to go. Fuse your 3 phase overcurrent protection for the load and your golden.I guess the factor is closer to 1.9 X 3 phase load for the standard rotary type. 36 X 1.9 = 68.4 of single phase input roughly.The 80 would just give you the 36 you want and a bit more but the 100 would give you some decent head room.Does your Cutler hammer take BR or CH breaker type ? Are the breaker handles black or grey ? 99% of time Black are BR Grey ones are CH It is a lot easier to source a 100 amp for that panel most likely than a 80 amp. Home Depot most likely carries a 60 and then a 100 nothing in between. They do have BR and CH in 80 amp available you just may have to go to a electrical supply that carries the Cutler Hammer stuff if you did want to use 80.Last edited by danielplace; 05-07-2020 at 02:05 PM.
Reply:Duly noted.it takes BR type breakers, handles are black. On a separate but similar note, I was reviewing ampacities for wire gauge sizes in an online reference chart.4awg: 21mm² can carry 70A using the 60°F rating.10awg: 5.4mm² can carry 30A using the 60°F rating.Insulation aside, we know that the current carrying capacity is largely determined by the cross sectional area of the wire. I noticed that it would take four 10awg wires to roughly make up the cross sectional area of a single 4awg wire. Then technically barring other factors like undesireable heat-dissipation conditions, would that imply that four 10awg conductors be able to carry 120A because they have more surface area from which to dissipate heat than the 4awg wire that has the same cross-sectional area? The combined surface area per-unit-length of four 10awg conductors is 31.7mm², where as for a single 4awg conductor it is 16.3mm²; roughly double, even though the cross-sectional areas are roughly identical.Last edited by Oscar; 05-07-2020 at 02:44 PM.
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Reply:You are right about your idea's on cross section but irrelevant for wiring though because you don't parallel a wire smaller than a 1/0 and you can't put more than one wire in each hole in a lug.
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
you don't parallel a wire smaller than a 1/0 and you can't put more than one wire in each hole in a lug.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
Why?.
Reply:Got it. I didn't know it would be illegal/against code. In the car audio world, maniacs with 100kW worth of amplifier power typically parallel wire to achieve the necessary current carrying capacity (to transferhundreds of amps of current) from the front of the vehicle to the rear where the amplifiers are traditionally installed. Obviously that is different from building wiring, which is why I asked "why".
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Reply:What do you think about a DIN Rail 3-pole breaker for the 3-phase OCP between the welder and the RPC?
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Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
What do you think about a DIN Rail 3-pole breaker for the 3-phase OCP between the welder and the RPC?
Reply:But then would I not be missing an OCPD if I didn't have a breaker (in between the welder and the RPC)? I'm almost 100% sure I will go with a 100A breaker with 2awg from subpanel-to-RPC, but surely that isn't considered OCPD for the welder?edit: nevermind, didn't read properly about " if fused properly with 40 amp fuses it will offer the welder some protection if it was drawing more than it should for some reason."Looks like the RPC will be here tomorrow. That was fast. I need to make space in the garage!Last edited by Oscar; 05-07-2020 at 08:00 PM.
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Reply:If that's the nameplate on the HTP it looks like its single phase or three phase. Do you need the phase converter to run it up to maximum amps? I'd try it on single before I spent a lot on a rotary unless I needed the rotary for something else too.
Reply:
Originally Posted by ferrret3238
If that's the nameplate on the HTP it looks like its single phase or three phase. Do you need the phase converter to run it up to maximum amps? I'd try it on single before I spent a lot on a rotary unless I needed the rotary for something else too.
Reply:
Originally Posted by ferrret3238
If that's the nameplate on the HTP it looks like its single phase or three phase. Do you need the phase converter to run it up to maximum amps? I'd try it on single before I spent a lot on a rotary unless I needed the rotary for something else too.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
Trust me, it's been "tried". Even before I bought it I already knew what the deal was. It is indeed limited to 350A until you have a capable 3-ph supply to feed it.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
I'm surprised, The Dynasty output doesn't change 200 to 600, single or three phase.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Willie B
I'm surprised, The Dynasty output doesn't change 200 to 600, single or three phase.
Reply:
Originally Posted by bigd250
You are incorrect. A dynasty 400 only gets 300 amps single phase and an 800 only gets 500. It's the same with a miller xmt.
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
Specs seem to suggest otherwise. 5-400 on single phase for a 400.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
Spec sheet has a typo. I checked each and every single manual on the Miller website manual search page for the Dynasty 400. They all point to 300A as the 1-Φ amperage limit.From the manual (actually in all the manuals):The HTP Invertig 400 has more balls whether in 1-Φ (50 more amps & +15% duty cycle), or in 3-Φ (+10% more duty cycle) than the Dynasty 400. So much for the amperage not changing, eh Willie?
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
The duty cycle charts often don't show the with the amps maxed out though. I thought I had heard they were less on single phase before it was posted here then 2 places showed specs at full amp.
Reply:I agree but they may not want you seeing 400 amp welder at only 10% set at that 400 amp. Ya it don't matter. Just killing time until you make installation progress on the RPC for yours.
Reply:
Originally Posted by bigd250
You are incorrect. A dynasty 400 only gets 300 amps single phase and an 800 only gets 500. It's the same with a miller xmt.
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
I agree but they may not want you seeing 400 amp welder at only 10% set at that 400 amp. Ya it don't matter. Just killing time until you make installation progress on the RPC for yours.
Reply:I ordered an Eaton 3-pole breaker box and an Eaton 40A 3-pole breaker to be installed between the RPC and the welder(s). I'm just going to use that as a means of OCPD and as means of disconnect. I know, I know, not ideal nor code, but it will be fine for me.
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Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
I ordered an Eaton 3-pole breaker box and an Eaton 40A 3-pole breaker to be installed between the RPC and the welder(s). I'm just going to use that as a means of OCPD and as means of disconnect. I know, I know, not ideal nor code, but it will be fine for me.
Reply:I do plan to have a couple outlets for the 3-Φ power as I do plan to get a 3-Φ mill sometime in the future; that way I can leave them connected. I'm still debating the final set-up because I do not want to have a fixed location install for the RPC. I end up moving things around a lot.
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Reply:She's a big momma.
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Reply:Looks good from here. Oscar, you have some nice tools. Way overkill but the skies the limit. I do have a question for you. Can you show a pic of your compressor setup? I thought you had a safety net around it. It should be in the safety forum or compressor forum imo. If that was your setup please and thank you show us.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Insaneride
Looks good from here. Oscar, you have some nice tools. Way overkill but the skies the limit. I do have a question for you. Can you show a pic of your compressor setup? I thought you had a safety net around it. It should be in the safety forum or compressor forum imo. If that was your setup please and thank you show us.
Reply:
Originally Posted by danielplace
Oscar,The 30 hp phase converter is good for 15 hp of load.I would size the input at near full rating.#1's from panel to the converter A and B single phase inputs and 100 amp breaker.From A, B and C from converter panel to the idler you would use #8s.Then from your A and B inputs and the C coming back from idler you feed your 3 phase panel with #4's. >>>> NEVER use the A and B for the idler for anything else but converter panel to the idler ONLY.If not using a panel to split up loads or set your self up for future then just run what your powering with only the size wire it requires. Be sure to provide proper over current protection as soon as you leave the phase converter. Smart to have some way to kill power at the machine too if the panel or disconnect is far from the phase converter.
Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
Thanks. As for my compressor, nope that wasn't me. Mine is out in the backyard, about 100ft from the garage, under a small roof to protect from rain.
Reply:
Originally Posted by TraditionalToolworks
When I clicked on that video I realized why you have it 100 ft from your garage, which I'm guessing is where your shop is...
That is one loud compressor! I wonder if you can get it 200 ft away?
Reply:So looking at the motor wiring, it looks like the wires get connected to each other in three-sets-of-four:
The question is: Is there a quick-n-easy way to do so with the 1/4" hole lugs that are already on there? using a short 1/4" bolt/nut does not sit right with me even with isolating it from the case, because you never know.
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Reply:
Originally Posted by Oscar
So looking at the motor wiring, it looks like the wires get connected to each other in three-sets-of-four:
The question is: Is there a quick-n-easy way to do so with the 1/4" hole lugs that are already on there? using a short 1/4" bolt/nut does not sit right with me even with isolating it from the case, because you never know. |
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发表于 2021-9-1 23:14:31