Which Inverter TIG (Fronius or Miller) and PLASMA ???

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Greetings,I build a lot of one off furniture in wood and want to incorporate tubular alloy and other metal framework.  I have decided on an Inverter AC/DC TIG since I would burn my house and shop down trying to draw 70 amps w/ a Synchrowave on 1960's 100 amp service.  I already got an estimate from  Edison in regards to upgrading my service a few years back for larger wood machinery and they wanted around $14,000.Sorry, back to my questions, I thought I had limited it down to the Dynasty 200 DX, then I came across the Fronius MagicWave 2200, and it seems more refined than the Miller and also has adjustable waveform.  Seeing as I am new to heliarc and welding alloys, how critical is the being able to adjust the form beyond standard squarewave?  Also I like the higher 220 amp output and improved duty cycle.  The problem is I can't find any dealers in CA or any pricing for Fronius.  Has anybody used one of these units or have further information on purchasing and pricing of Fronius products.Having already completed the move to Western European (mainly German and Austrian) tools in my wood machinery I figure paying a definite premium for the Fronius, but with all my other tools it was been worth every penny.  What would you value the added features on the Fronius at?Secondly, the Plasma cutter.I want a unit that I can freehand 1/4" aluminum sheet rapidly so I can do sweeping curves without a lot of edge stepping.  I have been looking at mid-ranged inverter types because again my damn electrical service limits me.  My question is, when you turn down the output amperes on a Hypertherm 600 or similar does that reduce the input draw or does it remain constant along all output settings.  If the current draw stays constant then I would probably have to downgrade on size to a 3XX series.  I was leaning towards an ESAB because their inverters draw the least current for cuttng capacity but the 650 only has HF start.  That leaves me the choice between Hypertherm 380/600 and Miller Spectrum 375/625.  Which would be my best bet, is it true Miller requires proprietary consumables that are over-priced?  I may go with a 3XX series if it can get me by for now, so when I eventually get a commercial space (need more room for machiney) I will have a portable unit that runs off 120v if needed, and can then purchase a more serious 1XXX series unit for thicker material along with a TransPuls Synergic or XMT.Sorry for the long winded post, just want to get the choice right the first time.  Let me know what you think about the listed machinery or if you have any subsequent questions or alternatives.Thank you for providing a forum where us 'NOT know it all's' in the world of welding can ask the experienced. Regards,-BryanAvoid Chi-Comm tools at all costs, or else  will later ensue.
Reply:The Fronius and the Dynasty look Pretty close to the same spec. to me. I read about the Fronius before I bought my last welder (Recently). I bought the Dynasty 200DX. Here are several factors that are not directly related to the machines that made a difference to me:1.>The Dynasty is produced in Appleton Wisconsin. It is "American Made". (This is important to me!)2.>The dealer I bought it from is 15 miles away, they stock parts for them, and they repair them. Considering that I could not even find a published price or dealer for the Fronius, what happens when I need it worked on or I need parts?3.>There are people in the trades locally, and people here on this forum that use the Dynasty that can help me if I need it.I could not find any real in depth information on this "wave shaping" the Fronius does. The Dynasty has controls for slope up and slope down when welding in certain modes. The Fronius could be doing the same thing, or something considerably different, I don't know. I really didn't like the fact that I couldn't seem to find out!The Dynasty works on any voltage, single or three phase, from 115 volts up to 480 volts, all automatically. Since I "May" take mine into the steel mills with me from time to time, this is pretty handi. The documentation for the Dynasty states that the limiting factor for the duty cycle at the lower input voltages is the size of the conductors in the line cord, not the machine it'self.Not that I have any intention of changing the cord, I'm O.K. with the duty cycle knowing that the machine it'slef isn't running at its limit.Now that I have the Dynasty I can tell you I am definetly impressed! This is one sweet machine with more cappabilities than I'll ever be able to master!I've found that the one I have has one MAJOR handicap though.....Me!Patrick
Reply:Patrick,Thanks for the input and clarification of the duty cycle, they must publish it at the lowest end based on 120V input.  Did you purchase a contractor kit for it, or did you purchase a different torch and controller, and did you go for finger or foot control?I figure I couldn't go wrong with the Dynasty but just wanted to explore all options.  It looks like Kemppi just released a MasterTig MLS 2300 that compares directly to both of these, with 230 amp and a little higher duty cycle than the Fronius.  I like the ability to adjust the program and settings from the torch handle on the Fronius.  I tried contacting them, and some distributors I found after some extensive searching, but everybody is on holiday until Wednesday.  Based on pricing from Australia it looks like it will run about $4,000 for a Fronius or Kemppi including leads, reg, and finger control torch.  What is expensive is their foot controllers ($750).Anybody with further knowledge on Fronius or Kemppi would be appreciated.Thanks,-BryanAvoid Chi-Comm tools at all costs, or else  will later ensue.
Reply:I bought a seperate torch and fingertip control from a different company. I didn't need everything in the contractor kit because I allready had ground clamps, a gas bottle, and regulator.I used a foot control in the past and am now forcing myself to use this fingertip control. I think the foot control was easier, but that might just be me.Patrick
Reply:Originally Posted by Sober_PollockI bought a seperate torch and fingertip control from a different company. I didn't need everything in the contractor kit because I allready had ground clamps, a gas bottle, and regulator.I used a foot control in the past and am now forcing myself to use this fingertip control. I think the foot control was easier, but that might just be me.
Reply:I am a big fan of imported high quality tools- I have a Basque Ironworker, an Italian set of powered angle rolls, and German made Cold saw and ornamental iron equipment.But, and its a big but, I would not buy an orphan, import welder.Machine tools, and woodworking tools, are basically simple, with large castings, and motors, bearings, and fasteners that are generic, or at least equivalent parts are available here.Not the same thing with custom made electronics like inverter welders.I have several Miller machines, and I love my inverter welder. I think you will not regret buying an inverter. They use less power, as you mentioned, are lighter and easier to move, and weld very well. But I would buy a Miller. Great quality, made in america, parts and service anywhere, consumables in stock, good resale value. As for plasma cutters, I have owned a Miller, and would not buy another one. For plasma cutters, I go with Hypertherm or Thermal dynamics. Again, good resale value, great reputations, good parts and service and consumable availability, and bulletproof construction.Every commercial cutting shop I have ever been in, and most big fab shops, run either Hypertherm or TD. I currently have been running a TD machine for over 8 years on my big cutting table- and never a problem of any sort.Foot pedal is much easier and more convenient than fingertip. I have both, but only use the fingertip when I absolutely have to.
Reply:Hi ElectriDrive!Fronius and Kemppi are both excellent GTA squarewave+ welding power sources. However, I have to agree with Sober_Pollock regarding his own personal preference to Miller, and I do'nt think that you're going to be welding on boiler tubing or pharmecutical, petrochemical, Nuclear or semiconductor piping anytime soon with whichever power source you choose...In other words, "the machine does'nt make the welder if the welder does'nt have the skills yet to make the machine look good"... Have you looked at Thermal Arc's line of SMA/GTA welding power sources yet? Made in the USA too, with many distributors that also service them as Sober_Pollock suggested originally with regards to his preference in purchasing American made welding equipment... Fronius is just beginning to develop a distributor network in the US, mainly concentrating currently in the automotive sectors and expanding from there as compared to miller which has a vast nationwide network that's been around for decades!!! I really don't know how much of a footing Kemppi (Finnish) has in this country so, I'll just say that you'll have a harder time finding tech/warranty support or parts availability here with the two european makers of the welding equipment mantioned above...     If you're going to be welding in the shop, what's wrong with a foot pedal to start with especially if you have'nt mastered GTA welding yet? It takes alot more getting used to when trying to use the controls on the torch than if one is using a foot pedal while welding, at least to begin with... I would recommend the torch controls if one was welding out of position where a foot pedal would limit your access to the work, and the work is so far away from the power source that the foot pedal could'nt reach the work... No as far as plasma cutters go, Thermal Dynamics or Hypertherm are the best in my book, then ESAB but, like someone else mentioned, stay away from Miller spectrum's because when their boards go, you might as well buy another unit (they usually fry about a yr or two after the warranty expires) Ultimately I would try out all of them to see which one you like better and go from there Respectfully,SSBN727"Run Silent...  Run Deep!!!
Reply:My Miller Spectrum 375 was bought brand new by me 5 years ago.  It's still being used on a regular basis by a friend to whom I sold it two years ago.I've never heard of issues with them until this thread, so I'm not really sure I believe it is anywhere near as bad as it's being made out to be.  That's my take; you're mileage may vary.I'll be buying a new plasma cutter this year and it will be a Miller Spectrum 2050 or 1000.
Reply:Mac; a question about plasmas. I only used one once, 'bout 25yrs. ago, on 1/2"thick..... RUST......on torpedo shutter doors on a sub,so that didn't teach me much, my question  is , is it true that if they say "this machine cuts (whatever thickness) , only believe  1/2  THAT thickness ?[SIZE="5"Yardbird"
Reply:I don't know about then or other manufacturers, but Lincoln and Miller, in MY experience are fairly conservative and honest in their ratings.  I think by now, the technology is popular enough that no one can BS the propective customers now anyway.  A 27A machine (like a Miller Spectrum 375) is a 3/8" rated cut no matter who makes it.  "Rated cuts" are the numbers you need to look at.For example, a Spectrum 375 is a 3/8" rated cut, which means it is also capable of a 1/2" "quality" cut, which is still pretty decent quality, and it will also do a 5/8" sever, which means it'll make it through, but don't expect it to be very cleanly done.In MY experience, the Spectrum 375 severed 3/4" when I asked it to.
Reply:Now, aluminum is another story.  My Spectrum 375 would barely get through 1/4" diamond plate with new consumables.
Reply:You might want to consider a Thermal Arc TA-185 tsw.  You can buy it and you botle for about $1000 less than Dynasty W/contractors kit.  My vote on plasma's would be Hypertherm, Miller, ThermadyneDennisThermal Arc 185-TSWMillermatic Challenger 172VictorO/AAtlas Craftsman 12 by 24 LatheEsab PCM-875Wholesalem Tool Mill-Drill
Reply:Thank you for the replies,I researched further into Kemppi and based on their global site it looks like they don't even have a U.S. division, too bad because they started making some small inverter tigs (Miller Passport size) with some nice features.  As far as Fronius I have yet to be able to confirm if they are even importing the GTAW inverters into the U.S., since everyones home drinking beer for the holiday.  I found that their solar inverter division is right by me, so I may be able to get parts and consumables easily?  But agree that Miller makes more sense as far as ease of obtaining parts and service.  Since I don't make my living off this stuff I can afford to wait a little longer on repairs if something went wrong.  But who knows how long that would be with Fronius.As to European wood machinery I am talking electronic controlled, multi-motor, touchscreen settings adjust stuff.  Not cast trunnion,  motor and a v-belt like my Powermatic.  I like how well thought out the tools are as a system (like my Festo stuff).   I talked with a EE at Airgas and he said the plasma is going to draw full amperage on start to load the capacitor/s so it looks like no Hypertherm 1000 or 600.  He said that the  Miller and Hypertherm 3XX & 6XX's are made in the same factory by Miller.  The only difference are the proprietary boards that run them.  Miller has some new board in ther 625 that allows it run on a 33 amp input vs. 46 amps from the Hypertherm 600. Hypertherm has developed a similar technology with their 3rd generation electronics on their higher end models.  Their 1000 G3 only draws an additional 2 amps (48), while outputting an additional 20 amps along with a higher OCV over the 600.I completely agree with all of you that Hypertherm is the way to go, plasma's are their life blood.  It would definitely be my first choice by far.  But unless I want to run a new sub-panel I am limited to a 380, which based on their charts doesn't cut thicker aluminum very well, or should I say fast.  Would it be that big of a disservice to myself if I bought Spectrum 625.  Or should I go with the original plan and buy a 380 now and a 1000 later?Thanks again for input.Regards,-BryanAvoid Chi-Comm tools at all costs, or else  will later ensue.
Reply:Originally Posted by Tailshaft56You might want to consider a Thermal Arc TA-185 tsw.  You can buy it and you botle for about $1000 less than Dynasty W/contractors kit.
Reply:To cut through the bull has anyone or any group made a comparison of a specific tig machines with the same power output ?  I am speaking of a comparison like Consumer's Report does .  Because all I get is fragmented information about welders which I have difficulty in trying to make sense of.             Thanks