What welder for newb?

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I am a newb to welding and am looking for a good welder that will meet all my needs for a lifetime. What I want to use it for is welding rollcage and such in  4x4 and stock cars and a little light fabrication. nothing thicker than probley 1/4" on single pass. I am thinking MIG but the bottles seem to be a hassel. Is it worth it over a better wire feed?(I had a Harbor freight 110 wirefeed, until my brother borrowed it and ran it over...) Any and all advise is welcome.
Reply:Time to get out the....But seriously, Mig is the easiest to learn, but can be the most dangerous ('specially on a vehicle) due to cold welds.  Tig is the best process, but can be difficult in tight areas and you need both hands.  Stick is messy but fun and exciting in how the sparks and smoke fly.  You could go ESAB multimaster 260 and be able to stik tig and mig and Ive read nothing but good stuff about em, or go all out with a miller xmt or lincoln powerwave or advanced process.  Its all about money with a new machine.  Ive been looking at those 250/300 amp powcons and old thermal machines on ebay.  They are dc only but have plenty of current for allmost anything, and probably stick and tig like nobody's business on steel.Lots to think about.  I will tell you this, its fun just learning how.  Im far from starting a project vehicle and I may never do so, but Im having a blast. Attached ImagesLast edited by Doolittle; 02-20-2007 at 08:55 PM.Various GrindersVictor Journeyman torch200cf Acet. 250cf oxygenLincoln 175 plus/alpha2 gunLincoln v205t tigLincoln 350mpEsab 650 plasmaWhen you can get up in the morning, Its a good day.Live each day like its your last.
Reply:Well bottles don't have to be a hassle if you get one large enough.For what you want to do I believe a 220v mig machine would be your best bet. Something like a Lincoln 215 or Miller 210. I always like to buy big cause you never know if you may want to tackle something larger. You said you want something for life.Patriot Performance AutoLincoln Power Mig 255CLincoln AC-225 StickVictor Journeyman O/AQuincy QT-5 Compressor
Reply:Thanks for the advise. What do you mean MIG may be dangerous on autos cause of cold welds? Forgot to post a budget, $1000 is my top out. What about reconditioned units?
Reply:Look at a brand new Hobart Handler 187.  The next class up would be a Millermatic 210, but at slightly over your budget.  The HH187 is extremely well designed for a 7-tap machine and easy to use, with realistic 1/4" capability when you need it.Or go stick.  You can get one heckuva SMAW machine for that budget and still have plenty left over.
Reply:Originally Posted by MOAThanks for the advise. What do you mean MIG may be dangerous on autos cause of cold welds?
Reply:I would have to agree that the Hobart Handler 187 would be a good fit, but with the budget given, for just a wee bit more, TSC has the Hobart Ironman 210 for $1034.  Just some more "food for thought".When the  drops the  stops!Check out my website at:  Tombstone 180 ACHandler 120Millermatic 210Powermax 380Harris & Victor torchesSawzallChop Saw
Reply:Would a stick welder give me clean, solid welds? I Am not afraid to grind(it is what i have been doing) but i do want strong, professional looking welds. The hardest thing I would do is weld link mounts on a axle tube or make a bumper. I would love to go mig, but it seems that they are very costly, and I would have to get bottles that eat into the budget and a wire feeder. Is this right? Do I have to buy a $250 wire feeder for a mig welder?
Reply:The mig welders they are suggesting include the feeders.  Stick (SMAW) can give the results your looking for, but require more practice (and some clean-up, though grinding shouldn't be necessary).  If you need the ability to weld heavier metals I would think about stick.  I would think cost would be comparable between the two processes.  Brian MoyerMoyer Welding & Fabrication       LaSalle MI
Reply:If you'd be content with a stick then dont cross it out!  Im really enjoying SMAW even though its a small function of my welder.  Im incredibly impressed with how good a job some rods can produce.  The Hobart 187 is a great welder (was in my top 4 list).  Might be worth getting on craigslist to just get started with SMAW, and see where it takes you.  If you want an "unlimited" welder you'll be shelling out some serious $.  Nothing wrong with buying a used unit to try out IF you have it in mind that you may very well upgrade later (and spend accordingly).ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:You dont need a wire feeder for self contained units, these include all the ones mentioned in this thread.  Ok, pros and cons of both stick and mig (feel free to chime fellow welders):Stick:Pros:Can be used in windy conditions (and underwater is some cases), is capable of welding cast iron and SS with the right rods.  Welders are cheaper.  Tried and true method of joining metals.  Different rods can be changed at anytime.  Can weld in tight positions by forming (bending) the rod.  Only need one hand while welding.  Leads can easily be extended to work if power source is stationary.Cons:Lots of fumes that can be dangerous and harmful, more splatter (at least for me), takes more practice, consumables cost more over the long haul, rods need special storage to stay good (moisture ruins the flux).  MigPros:Fast.  Easier to learn.  Only one hand needed.  Consumables are cheaper (if you figure it out), great for tacking and body work, with gas generates less fumes, can make nicer looking welds than stick, no need to stop and change rods.  Units typically roll or are portable.Cons:Easy to make a cold weld, hard to see around nozzle in some cases (cant see puddle), If you need to change the type of wire, it can be involved (change gun liner, contact tip, spool), machine adjustments can be tedious (getting machine dialed in), splatter, can be annoying trouble shooting simple problems (mechanical feeders, drive rolls, liner, switches, gun etc).  lead reach (mig gun) is set and cannot be extended without replacing the liner and cable (more involved than you would think)..Wire can rust or corrode over time ruining it.I like mig better, but sometimes a stick is what is needed.  Id get a mig as a first welder, to get your feet wet as it were...  And maybe later on, if your good, Santa or whoever will bring you a stick machine.  Then who knows?  O/A tanks, Tig welder, Big gas bottles everywhere!! heh...Almost forgot, If you go stick (which is cool really, this is a matter of choice here)  get an AC/DC unit.Last edited by Doolittle; 02-20-2007 at 11:58 PM.Various GrindersVictor Journeyman torch200cf Acet. 250cf oxygenLincoln 175 plus/alpha2 gunLincoln v205t tigLincoln 350mpEsab 650 plasmaWhen you can get up in the morning, Its a good day.Live each day like its your last.
Reply:So the handler 187 get the nod, and it seems mig is the way to go. How thick of welds can the 187 produce on single pass? the web site says 5/16, it that right? The only thing I plan to weld thicker than that would be the shackle mounts on the bupmer, but I have access to both sides of those. Sorry for the stupid questions, but I only have a little experiance with wire feed, mostly tacking and some light fab work. Am I correct to assume that Mig gives a cleaner, stronger weld under ideal conditions?
Reply:Good post Doolittle, but do you guys really think SMAW is more difficult than MIG?  Ive been learning SMAW as a foundation to get good enough to step up to TIG.  Not to hijack a thread, but it may be pertinent for it as well!Havent thought of "bending" rods.  You just burning till you hit the broken flux?ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:How does the milermatic 180 and the lincon 175t stack up agianst the handler?
Reply:miller and hobart are the same machine just a different paint jobChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:MOA, another consideration in favor of a MIG welder:  a lot of tracks, and most sanctioning bodies, require MIG or TIG welding for race chassis/roll cages.  I've built a bunch of cars with a stick welder, and old 180 AC Lincoln tombstone, but I've moved up to MIG and wouldn't want to go back to doing roll cages with a stick.  I've also built them with black pipe roll cages, but I'm not going back to doing that either (in fairness to myself, back in the 60's when I started racing, a lot of cars were built with black pipe, and welded with AC buzz box welders).The 3 MIG's you've mentioned (Hobart Handler 187, Millermatic 180, or Lincoln 175T will do anything you want to do on any stock car.  They'll also do a fine job on the trailer you'll want to haul that stock car on.Just how thick would the shackle mounts you're talking about be?  I would think any of the 180 class MIGs should be able to handle it.  Or, for that one item that you might need more oomph, have one of your buddies bring his stick over and make those welds.  I did that with a buddy, he was working on a trailer built from an old mobile home frame, didn't feel comfortable welding it with his MM 180, so I took my tombstone to his place, and he did the welding with it, using 6011 rod.  With your $1000 budget any of the three you mentioned would be in your price range, including a tank of C25.  TSC sells the Hobart Handler 187 in the $650 range, the $350 you would have left would get a good sized tank of C25, and leave you some $$$ for other tools you'll be wanting.  (An auto darkening helmet will be one thing you'll be wanting, if you don't already have one.)Last edited by BigEd36; 02-21-2007 at 07:30 PM.When the  drops the  stops!Check out my website at:  Tombstone 180 ACHandler 120Millermatic 210Powermax 380Harris & Victor torchesSawzallChop Saw
Reply:Originally Posted by MOA Am I correct to assume that Mig gives a cleaner, stronger weld under ideal conditions?
Reply:Almost all are TIG for frame/suspension/structural, and will allow MIG for panels.  Dont know of any not abiding by this standard anymore unless its junkyard racing...Surprised nobody's mentioned a used TIG/SMAW system.  ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:Thanks for all the replys. I am leaning to the HH187. I dont have a helmet yet, not a good one anyways. I have a makita 4" grinder, so I am good there. The rules here are MIG/Tig for cages and tig for chassis, but I dont need to do any chassis welding in modified street. it is agianst the rules. The shackle mounts on the bumper would be 1/2" thick welded to 1/4" plate. These take a lot of weight, but the strap will go at about 30,000lbs, so the welds should hold with a mig, right? I really dont want to be pulling someone out and launch a 5lbs chunk of my bumper back at them an mach 2. I have seen broken chains go through windows and radiators before, so I use a strap.
Reply:Miller and Hobart are not the same company, but are owned by the same company and in a few instances do have models differing in "skin" only.  Same as Chevrolet is to Pontiac/GMC.A Hobart Handler 187 and a 90cft to 160cft bottle of 75% Argon/25% CO2 mix would make a great start.  If you decide to run the fluxcore wire it comes with (and setup for) you can use the standard nozzle but if the dealer happens to have one of their fluxcore nozzles available; get it.  It is easier to see around and keeps the adapter ports protected.  If you go ahead and get the gas and solid wire you'll need to change the polarity (easy and well documented).As a great first project you may wish to build a cart to make it easier to rig up and move your welder & gas safely around your garage or shop.  Here's a link to a thread that illustrates a very nice and easy to accomplish rig: http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/...light=BDC+cartClay
Reply:I am new to welding and bought a HH187 last week from Northerntool.comI got the welder, a Hobart XTV autodark helmet and a little magnet square for right at $800 (no tax and free shipping).  A 60cf bottle of C25 and a large spool of .030 wire from my LWS was about $180.I believe this will be as much welder as I will ever need as I am not going into the welding trade, just doing light fabrication stuff.  Although when I see some of the TIG welds around here, I might be tempted down the road to try my hand at that.Reece
Reply:What torch would you recommend to accompany this welder? I just need something for light fab work and that maybe I can use to weld with too.
Reply:Accompany the handler?  It should come with what, a 10 foot gun.  Thats really plenty since you can make yourself an extension cord and take the machine to your work.Various GrindersVictor Journeyman torch200cf Acet. 250cf oxygenLincoln 175 plus/alpha2 gunLincoln v205t tigLincoln 350mpEsab 650 plasmaWhen you can get up in the morning, Its a good day.Live each day like its your last.