Wrought Iron

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I own a small welding and repair business, and a few people have asked me if I do wrought iron. So, I have paid attention recently to the new homes that are being built, and noticed that they are using alot of wrought iron railings. Is this difficult. It doesnt look that way, but looks can be deciving. I have some general questions about it....Where are the supplies purchased?(Railing,bases,decorations)Are th railings built after the house has been built?Are the railings built at the shop, and brought to the house to be installed?How is it priced? By your time and materials?Thanks for your help!!!
Reply:Hi Lingarner I have been looking into the same thing for my business also.  The following web-site offers som interesting information.  http://www.realwroughtiron.com/wiac.htmThe new stuff you see going in isnt wrought iron, just decorative steel.  That stuff uses normal steel techniques.  Brian MoyerMoyer Welding & Fabrication       LaSalle MI
Reply:Funny, welding web advertiser is a supplier. http://www.decorativeiron.com/DecorativeIron/As to your other questions, I think most work is done on site. I would charge hourly + materials (possibly material charge X 2 )If you were making the fencing yourself I'd shop fabbricate the panels and assemble on site.  This is very "in style" right now, should be able to charge top dollar if your workmanship is excellent.  Brian MoyerMoyer Welding & Fabrication       LaSalle MI
Reply:Real wrought iron is either the name for the metal itself, which is a type of iron, not steel, that hasnt been made for 30 year or so, or a name for a style of hot forged blacksmith work- real scrolls, hand bent, tapers hot forged, and so on.but most people just use it to mean any fancy metalwork.You can buy lots of parts, mig em together, paint it black, and it will look pretty nice. Here are some places to buy parts from:http://www.jansensupply.com/http://www.classicirononline.com/http://www.kingmetals.com/http://wroughtironconcepts.com/http://www.jgbraun.com/http://www.juliusblum.com/But if you wanna see how the big dogs do it, no mig, no store bought, just heat and beat from sticks of steel, check these guys out-http://www.gilmoremetal.com/index.htmlhttp://www.michaelbondi.com/http://www.whitesavageandlyle.com/http://www.blacksmithchic.com/On fancy stuff, I make it all in the shop, then do as little on site as possible. Me, I cant make any money unless I go at least 5 times materials- but even that can be tight sometimes, depending on how much we make ourselves by hand- I have had jobs where we hot twist, then hot rivet, say, 2000 parts- and it really can add up.Or forge a texture on 2 tons of stainless steel bars- you gotta figure a fair amount of time and money goes into something like that.We are working on a job right now with 600 scrolls, all hot bent, from 1/2" stainless round bar, which has all been hot textured first- and the labor costs, as well as the materials, do tend to add up.But you should be able to get started just buying some spikes, or some twisted bars, and go to town.Last edited by Ries; 03-01-2007 at 10:08 AM.
Reply:Arond here the guys that do this work tell me that there is no money in it and a lot of guys have gotten out of that part of the trade. Problem being.... customers are not wiliing to pay what the jobs are worth time wise... especially since they can buy pre made ones at a local precast company for less.... The customers don't look at the product and compare just the price tag. One guy was showing me a piece he taken a day to make and I think he sold it to the customer for like 250.00. and he was getting 50 to put it in. Joked with him that he'd be making more hourly to install it than he did to fab it.But that might just be around here._________________Chris
Reply:Well, it all depends on the market you are going after.For sure, there is only a little bit of a market at the top end for hand forged railings, which can easily run $200 to $500 per foot.But there are an amazing amount of rich people out there, and the work is there, if you have the skills to do it, and the patience to deal with the architects, interior decorators, and rich people.I know a guy who routinely spends a year or so doing the metalwork for one house, and he has a 3 man shop. And they aint cheap. He has gotten in with some architects that do big multi-million dollar houses in Tahoe, and they are always busy- and his shop is in Port Townsend Wa- they pay for travel, lodging, food and all expenses when he goes to install in Tahoe, a good 18 hour drive away.http://www.stevelopesblacksmith.com/I am sure there is work like this in New Hampshire- in fact, one of the most well known blacksmiths who has been doing this kind of work for over 30 years is in NH. http://www.art-metal.com/ResRail.htmlthere is an old saying-"the jobs you do are the jobs you get"If all you ever expect to do are $300 jobs, thats the way people think of you. But if you go out to architects, contractors, and clients, and tell em you can do the high priced spread, the work is out there.
Reply:I build rails.  Most of what you see in on new construction is cookie cutter stuff.  Cookie cutter stuff is any rail that has made of straight balusters or mostly purchased decorative balusters and other parts.  I builds mostly cookie cutter stuff.  I do operate in fast turn-around mode.  It is the only way to make money doing these type rails.You build as much as possible off site.  Ideally, you want only want to have to attach the rail to the property...in reality this rarely happens.  However, you shouldn't be doing anything but trimming or splicing.  It takes much to long to fabricate on site.  It is dangerous ( contractors don't like burns, rust created by grindings and overspray).  Clients also like to help you design/modify--"since you haven't finished yet" If you are doing real artistic stuff as Ries listed above, then you can't be afraid to charge accordingly.  However, don't confuse that for the stuff generally put up on many high dollar houses.  Buy as many parts as possible and crank them out.I too do 5 times material.  You need to have a price per foot, also.  Price/foot is what clients and contractors will understand.  You need to know your market going rates.  I like the multiple formula because I know everything is covered.  Building rails is not difficult. However one can make it difficult.
Reply:First of all, I thank you all for the good info. I have been looking at the work around town, and have noticed, the concrete or brick in some of these staoirs have been drilled. What are they drilling with? And filling it with?
Reply:Holes in concrete and other masonry are drilled with a diamond core drill rig, it uses water to cool, lubricate and flush away the material you're cutting. There are base mounted units, and hand held. I had an older model base style, I sold it for a hand held Hilti, for railing size holes it is perfect. The anchoring material is "Hydraulic Cement". it has a slight expansion when it cures (concrete shrinks). There are different brands and types, some cure fast, to support rails, but do not like to be exposed to the weather. Other types weather well, but take a long time to set up. Brand is the old, Chevy, Ford, Chyrsler,... Red, Blue, etc.... everybody has their own preference.Just my  opinion, not from a book, just from the road.Howes Welding Inc.www.howesweldinginc.com
Reply:Check with the building department for any specifications for any safety devises such as railings.  It would be a shame to build a rail with 4 1/4 spacing only to find 4" spacing required for safety. Here the requirement is no 4" ball can pass through or under a deck railing. (thats tricky to work out with a scrolled rail)Also-some places require certification for railings-best to check.
Reply:Thanks for all your info. I am really excited about pursueing this. It seems as though it will allow me to be more creative.
Reply:The 4" sphere rule is pretty universal anywere there is a building code.There are other rules too, if an inspector is going to look at it- height, size of top rail, and on stair rails, how it attaches to the wall.A decent concrete core drill can easily run 3 grand. So while I own a rotohammer for setting bolts in concrete up to about 3/4" in diameter, when I need core drilling done, I hire it out. Around here, it runs $50/hole,  less if you are doing a whole lot of em. I am a metal guy, not a mud guy, and I much prefer to just mark where my posts are gonna be, and pay a pro. I usually get 2" diameter, 6" deep holes drilled in concrete, set the posts, and use quicksetting grout.
Reply:I'm with Tap on this one except I've only been at it a couple of years. It has served me well so far and this year referrals are comming in steady. Inexperience is a big issue because everyjob is so different and that slows things down considerably. I had one customer call me "meticulous". In reality I was scratching my head. Blacksmithing (if thats a word) is on a different level. I have no desire to go there. Watching a true blacksmith forge something from stock is a site to see.
Reply:First of all, thanks again for all your replys. I have researched so much on this issue. And I have looked at so many jobs from other wrought iron people. From what I see,(and hopefully dont offend some of you guys out there) its basically an erector set these days. There is still artistic value there if of course the owner would like, but most look the same. Construction from what Ive seen is, top hand rail, channel, and vertical supports. The art would be in different pickets, curved railings, and additions. But, my question is, what type of grout/concrete are used at the base of the supports in the brick stairs?Is the channel that are purchased from suppliers already punched for the pickets?If it is a simple set up(simple handrail, channel already punched, and simple pickets), is that welded on site, on the steps?
Reply:quickset non shrink grout is what you ask for.The best known brand name is Rockite- but its more expensive and sold at fewer places. Usually any concrete supplier will have bags of non shrink grout, in various set up times.If you have some crazy application, you can buy epoxy grouts at places like Fastenal or Grainger, that go off like super glue in a few minutes.But normal old 10 dollar to 15 dollar a 50 pound bag quickset non shrink, mixed with water, gets hard enough to hold a railing in 10 minutes or so, quicker if its hot out. A couple of 2x4's, clamps and the occasional bungee cord, and you can brace your railing temporarily until the grout goes off.When we make a railing, we buy nothing but raw steel stock, so its not quite an erector set around here. I dont use store bought cap rail, and rarely do anything as simple as just vertical pickets. We hot forge textures and shapes, twist our own custom patterns, and add all kinds of homemade decorative pieces we make. Like these twists- cant buy em anywhere-At some of the larger suppliers, you can actually purchase prepunched channel. King has it for example-http://www.kingmetals.com/Default.as...hannel*32205@@So really, you can do as little, or as much, as you want, to make custom railings. Its true, you could buy all the parts from King, have em shipped right to the job site, and mig em on site. And then paint em. I cant imagine the finished railing would be as nice as one built on a jig or table in the shop, carefully cleaned up, wire brushed or sandblasted, and then primed and painted. But it would be quicker, and cheaper.
Reply:there is a company that makes wrought iron billets, they're based in the uk. they sell it largely for restoration work. no you probably can't afford it.http://www.christopp.co.uk/if you have a lot of extra energy alot of free time and alot of iron ore around you can beat out your own billets.seriously though there are alot of options with ornamental iron, if you're looking to get your foot in the door i'd first try to find your local abana chapter (artist blacksmith association north america), if it ornamental fabrication i'd look into nomma(national ornamental  metals association). both are extremely useful resources.  the difference is abana is more artistic and nomma is more bussiness like.www.abana.orgwww.nomma.org
Reply:My buddy Abel Padilla is an artist. He designs stuff for his shop and then the guys at the shop make it by hand. All of it. Heat and beat style. It sells for HUGE dollars here in the ritzy parts of Arizona like Scottsdale and parts of outlying areas in Phoenix. I don't intend to advertise for him, but if you want to see what kind of iron they are building and selling, check it out at www.santaveronicairon.com.I was actually impressed with a lot of their work considering that it is all made in Mexico, a short drive from here. Funny to me how some stuff with great artwork and beauty comes from places where the people making it could never afford to buy it.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:I make most of my own stuff.  You can buy prefab railings but most of them are too cheaply made to suit me.  I make my stair rails out of 1x2 heavy gauge square tubing and buy my decorations (finials and balusters) and weld them on.  With some practice you can make strong wrought iron hinges and gate hardware – that you cannot buy at any price! To get the effect of wrought iron use steel and a rosebud torch head– heat to cherry red and quench with oil.  Burn the oil on the part with the torch and the oil will carbonize on the metal and penetrate quite deep.  You end up with a rust resistant natural finish that is really unique!Hope it helpsjohn