Oh man! Vertical up!!!

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Okay everyone.  Todays challenge is Vertical up on a T-joint. 6010.  5/32.  I have the amps around 135.  I have my arc force way down, 2-3.  I know all about how its a fast freeze rod, and the whipping action.  However, my puddle keeps dripping down over itself, like candle wax.  Im trying to keep my arc length as short as possible, is this right?  Everytime I change the rod any consistency I have is totally lost!  Man, does everyone go though this with vertical?    Should I have my electrode tilted up, down, or 90degrees?  Yes, I know I have a teacher, but he's pretty busy, and doesnt always explain things well.  How fast should I be going?  Im using 12 inches of 1/2 inch plate (T-joint)  How long should the first pass be taking me?  Man, I could really go on and on with questions, I'll just let it go at these for now.  Thanks everyone!-Jenn
Reply:I would guess you are using a DC machine so what polarity are you running?  probably the biggest cause of your puddle falling out on vertical up would be overheating of the base metal which would be caused by either moving too slowly or too much current.  A 6010 is an ok choice for vertical up but i personally use 7018's for about everything, I would assume you are learning on clean metal if you are in a shop class so a 6011 would not be needed to burn thru rust and such but you might find easier to use,  a 6011 will not look very pretty but will make a deep penetrating, good holding weld.  The angle of your rod should be pointing slightly upward (5-10 degrees) in order to penetrate well.  The more you angle the rod the less penetration.The other thing about vertical up is that some of the "dripping" you are referring to may be just the molten slag and there may be a very nice looking weld underneath.  Probably a stupid question but have you chipped them to see what they looked like?   All you can do to learn is practice practice practice,  all the books in the world can't alone make you a good weldor, only practical experience is going to help you learn the "tricks of the trade".  If you are in the classroom right now then you are in the right place to learn,  also your instructor is there to teach you and help you and should not be "TOO BUSY" to teach one of his students.    The best of luck to you and don't be afraid to ask more questions if you need any more help  Matt
Reply:Matt has some great tips in his post. I would start off with this 5/32 is kinda fat to learn on so if you can try 1/8. Try a practice T mounted at 60 degrees. I sing a cadence in my head that goes like this ….side hold  in  side hold  in side hold etc. with a slight inverted V motion. Remember you cross the middle twice and that is what puts a lot of heat into it. I usually run just 5-10 amps lower than 1F or horizontal position. Try bracing you body and then planting your elbows firmly into you body. The best working range is from you belt line to your chin ( when you first start out). Once you get a good pass kick the work piece up and make another pass. Hope it makes sense and bring good results.
Reply:Oh yeh one more thing that I do is to clamp the rod in the electrode holder and bend it to the right 90 degrees then rotate so it points forward this gives me a consistent working angle (5-10 degrees up) when I grab with both hands
Reply:It's always good to read the 'vertical up' tactics. I hate doing it. It's so discouraging. If it's a weld I'll never see, I just accept the fact that it's going to look like a candle. But if it's a weld I'll see everyday, I try harder. I have some that I need to do this weekend and I'm almost glad it's raining right now and might keep raining. Different rods don't seem to make much difference for me. Getting the current right i.e. not too high, seems to help me most.
Reply:Turning your arc force UP will make the puddle freeze faster.  I don't run much 6010.  I will give it a shot today with arc force up and down.7018 is Left......Right.........Left.......right......6010 is up then down.  Make a puddle, pull the rod UP and away about 3/8"?, then go back to the puddle.  The distance of your whip is what ever it works for you.  Try it, let us know how it works.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:It sound to me as if you may be trying to make too big of a weld in one pass.  If you make thinner multiple pass welds, you won't have so much drooping.
Reply:Originally Posted by David R6010 is up then down.  Make a puddle, pull the rod UP and away about 3/8"?, then go back to the puddle.  The distance of your whip is what ever it works for you.  Try it, let us know how it works.David
Reply:Vertical up is difficult. It is very important to be able to see the difference between the slag and the weld. Sometimes the slag will run off in a big drip that makes you think that your puddle is drooping. As you weave you should be able to see the weld freeze on the opposite side. When you get used to seeing the puddle, and not the slag, you will be able to judge when the puddle is big enough and move up before it runs. Patience and practice. Also, running too dark of a shade can make it hard to see what is going on. Be safe(never met a blind weldor) but don't run darker than you need to. Rod angle just slightly up 10-15 deg.
Reply:Jpillson, is your first pass supposed to be a stringer?I did some vertical up on 1/2" plate with 5/32 6010  @ 135 amps.I will post pictures tomorrow.  We need someone that runs 6010 a LOT more than me to show you the best way.  I whipped it.  Arc force high, low, and in the middle.  Nuttin to write home about.  You could turn the amps down a little to help get the hang of it.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Make sure you are LOOKING down at the weld pool.Do what it takes to make that happen. bricks whatever.You should be able to see the joint being welded ,the arc and distance between the two.
Reply:So it stopped raining Sunday and I knew I would have to go and do those bloody vertical welds that I've been avoiding on my 'world's strongest carport' project.4 corners.125mm channel on edge mitred.32mm rod.First two corners were vertical up with the usual dripping globs. Lots of chipping and gouging and grinding and filling. And lots of gnashing of teeth. I just don't enough of this vertical stuff to get good at it.So I gave up and did the next two vertical down. Perfect welds - the slag fell off by itself on one of them.Yeah, I know vertical up is stronger, but the mitres were welded all the way around i.e. the flanges top and bottom. It's not going anywhere.
Reply:I would suggest that, if you weld vertical  DOWN, Do not stop with a concave weld.  NO strength  ! make sure that your finished welds are full or slightly convex, as they would be if you welded vertical  UP .[SIZE="5"Yardbird"
Reply:Good tip, Roy. Thanks. I actually went down a couple of times - it was so easy (compared with going up) that I enjoyed it. There is a fair bit of weld in there.Scott
Reply:This was my attempt.  135 amps, 1/2" plate. 5/32 6010 5P+  (grey)DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I use 7018s but I found that if you can make a rest to lean against when you weld you can cut down on swaying or moving around when you weld. The angle of the rod, to much and the puddle will tend to fall out. I like to get a clear look at the puddle. Try not to get in the way of yourself. Timing is very importent, count one two three as if you were playing song or phrase in your head as you weld. Keep track of how much rod you got left over at the top, they should be the same or very close in length. I don't know about your test but I don't think you should be stopping and starting up in the middle of your virtical up. So timing should be considered and length of vertical up. Practice every day, even for five minutes. Once you get the heat, take note so you know where your at. Because the better you get you may increase it or lower it . Some people like smaller rods to start out with as you practice. Once you get this , over head is a breeze!Last edited by Thomas Clark; 01-21-2008 at 07:06 PM.
Reply:Is this a mutible pass vitical up or just a root pass? I always  run a root stringer pass.  Then stringer passes on each side of the root. Then weave the finale pass over all. Like the welding wolf would do with 7018. I never tryed 6010. Play more with your heat and rod angle.
Reply:Just a couple vert. up pics. Tried to show how much the slag can fool ya if you watch it and not the puddle.  3/8" plate on to worn out 5/8" plate. 1/8" 7018  DCEP, guessing 150 amps or so. No real prep, just hit it with a knotted wheel.Resizing pics is kicking my a$$. Attached Images
Reply:a real 150 amps for vert.  up ,would be too much. so, i think you might be using a little less. about a true 100-120  ought to be about right for the 1/8th  up . But, hang in there , you're "gettin it " .[SIZE="5"Yardbird"
Reply:This guy has to do it with 6010.  Lets see some of those!DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Thanks for all the replies guys!  So, I'm still at it.  I've been improving, but very slowly.  Im doing a stringer 1st, then a box weave, then a regular weave.   it seems that it all gets messed up on that last weave, I get alot of undercut, but when I try to keep it tighter, my weld seems too convex and cold-lapped.  Also, Ive cranked my arc-force up to about 5, Im not sure if its helping or hurting.  Any comments?
Reply:How do you best deal with the arc blow at the end/top of the piece?  Tack on extra metal?  Turn down heat/dig?  Other?
Reply:You are right David. My LWS has no 6010. Go figure.
Reply:Originally Posted by daddyJust a couple vert. up pics. Tried to show how much the slag can fool ya if you watch it and not the puddle.  3/8" plate on to worn out 5/8" plate. 1/8" 7018  DCEP, guessing 150 amps or so. No real prep, just hit it with a knotted wheel.Resizing pics is kicking my a$$.
Reply:Originally Posted by daddyJust a couple vert. up pics. Tried to show how much the slag can fool ya if you watch it and not the puddle.That arc force seems high to me, but 6010 isn't my standerd welding rod. If your getting alot of under cut you may be going to fast on your weave and or your stringer pass. Your pulling away from the puddle before it fills in. The weave pattern is were the timing comes into play. This is when I count in my head, one-two as I pause on the side after crossing the front of the weld. Be consistant as you weave up the plate. Keep practicing. I use a wire wheel and a needle gun for a fast way to get that flux off. Make sure you wear your safty glasses. even under that welding helmet.Last edited by Thomas Clark; 02-01-2008 at 03:12 PM.
Reply:I use 6010 quite a bit and it is actually designed for vertical downhill. It is much easier to run it uphill after you have gotten it going down. I turn my arc force all the way down when running uphill with 6010 or 7018. 6010 has more than enough dig all by itself. If the teacher will let you get some 3/32 and start out at about 45 or so amps, you may need a little bit more or less depending on the machine. 6010/6011 will not have gloppy slag rolling off of it period, it just doesn't happen. 6010 is also a strictly DCEP electrode, 6011 and 7018 are AC electrodes that can also be run DCEP.My advice is this....if it isn't specified otherwise use the smallest electrode you can i/e 3/32 as a beginner. Learn to control the puddle with it and then move to the next size. Welders have been learning welding that way since arc welding began. If you can't get it in there with the little ones you sure won't be able to with the big ones. The trick is to use all the heat you can stand but not enough that it causes the base metal to run away on you. Keep in mind that heat rises and as you go up your puddle is going to heat up on you. When it starts to roll out on you pull out, let it cool, and then get back in it. The bigger the fire you build the harder it is to control. I usually run at about a 25 to 30 degree uphill angle on the electrode.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:I also spent a couple of hours on the phone with oldtimer today and he reminded me of something I had forgotten and you might find it useful. This actually came from one of the worst welders I ever knew, but in practice it is almost absolutely true. Worry about the edges and the middle will take care of itself. On your weave (which is a technique that has pretty much been outlawed for most code level work) concentrate on the corners and go across the middle really quick. The outward points are resting spots and the middle is just for travel. This is true for any electrode as well as mig when traveling uphill. Hope this helps.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Can you comment more on "weave being outlawed"?We'd been practicing vertial weave up with 6010 and I wasn't able to get the smooth beads that the instructor was showing us. I finally said there's no way the example was done with 6010 and he just grinned a bit. Half hour later he told me to try some 7018. Though the weld puddle was dropping down on itself and making a mess. Imagine my delight when I knocked the slag off and had what was the best looking weld I'd ever done (and I've done a fair bit of welding with a GMAW machine).I have a distinctive stacked-coins look on my vertical beads, much larger than the example posted in this topic. How do you keep the stacked effect looking at lot smoother almost to where you can't see the individual passes? Am I moving up too far each time I pass over the center of the bead?
Reply:For the smoothest 7018 bead, turn the arc force down, it will flatten it out.  No dimes, almost a bead.  If you want I will run one, but the one pictured above is pretty awesome.Getting the heat right is the most important thing.As far as 6010, I can't help out, because I don't run much of it at all.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:In my case, we're using older Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DC machines (not the cheapo buzzboxes) with nothing but current and polarity controls available.
Reply:Originally Posted by David R  Getting the heat right is the most important thing.  David
Reply:Most code specifications specify stringer type beads. It's been a while since I had to read them over, but I believe the max width is 2 1/2 times the diameter of the electrode. An example would be 1/8th electrode equals 5/16th bead width. That doesn't leave a lot of room for weaving, and I have worked jobs where the inspectors actually measured bead width. Too wide, grind it out and do it again. Now keep in mind I have primarily dealt with heated pressure vessel and high pressure piping codes. There are a lot of techniques we used in the past that are no longer allowed. Do I use weaves? Yes, for non-code and structural work. If I had time right now I would give you the links to the info, but I have to track down parts for a machine and order materials.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.