MIG Spoolgun from a CC power source???

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I am very new here and something of a novice welder, with some experience with stick, a lot of Plasma Cutting experience, and looking to get a Squarewave Inverter AC/DC TIG. I have read a great deal about the various welding processes, so I believe I understand the basic principles pretty well. I also have quite a bit of electronics background, so I understand the difference between CC and CV (constant current vs constant voltage). I just have a screwy question: Somewhere I read the other day that one of the Chinese welder manufacturers had come out with a spoolgun and that that this spoolgun could be used with their TIG welder.  (???) Now this might have just been a typo mistake and the guy writing it may have meant MIG, but it got me to thinking, I don't know why this would not work?I know that MIG machines are conventionally CV, and that TIG and Stick are conventionally CC, but I don't know why a spoolgun would not work on a CC TIG power supply???Can someone explain this? Either on a theoretical level why it shouldn't work, or on a functional level, what would be wrong with the weld if you tried it?I am ignoring two things for the moment: Yes I know that is just not how it is done (but why not?), and ignore what it would take on a nuts and bolts level to mechanically and electrically connect this. I am confident the interface between the spoolgun and the TIG welder could be made to work with a little clever fanagling; power to the electrode wire, gas to the torch, some adjustable power to the spoolgun motor, etc. But why would it not work to weld with a wirefed electrode powered from a CC power source? If this is less crazy than I think, and if you think it could actually work, would Argon gas work in this hybrid system?I promise not to ask such crazy questions most of the time, but this one just has me scratching my head...Thanks! Cheers!Hypertherm PMX600, Miller AC/DC Stick, O/A Gas Rig -- looking for a 200A, AC/DC, TIG Squarewave Inverter, Pulse, (maybe Chinese...)
Reply:Some voltage-sensing wire feeders are made to be used from both constant voltage and constant current power sources.   I don't see why a spool gun couldn't be designed to work the same way, after all it's just a wire feeder with a torch attatched to it directly with no whip in between.Argon works with either type of current.That said, I don't know what electrical attributes make these feeders able to be used with either type of power source.   Maybe someone who knows will explain it to us.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Gosh, it just seems like this would be very cool. I would normally prefer to use TIG, but on those occasions when I might have a lot of bead to lay down and want to do it more quickly than TIG, a spool gun would be very nice. The more I have thought about this, Stick mode uses the filler wire as the torch electrode, albeit without sheilding gas, but I am having a real hard time seeing why a spoolgun wouldn't work just fine, you would just have to power it and control the speed. Stick TIG and MIG all from one Pulsed Squarewave AC/DC Inverter TIG welder, with adjustable frequency, cleaning ratio, ramps up and down, pre and post flow, and everything else.  It would do steel or aluminum without changing the gas. There has to be something wrong with this idea, or everyone would have done it already. Lets see, with constant voltage, I suppose as you pull the electrode away and lengthen the arc, the resistance would increase, so you would get less current, whereas, with constant current, the circuit would have to adjust the voltage up as you lengthened the arc, in order to keep the current constant across a wider arc. So with CV, arc distance can provide a bit of control over the current into the puddle, whereas with CC the arc distance should have less control over the current flowing into the puddle. So, with TIG you have a foot pedal or torch thumb control to adjust the current, but maybe with MIG you have a bit of control just by moving the wire in and out from the weld?Does that sound right to those with more experience? Novice here, know something about electricity though, just trying to speculate about why this might or might not work. I may be entirely wet about all this. Hummmmm....Hypertherm PMX600, Miller AC/DC Stick, O/A Gas Rig -- looking for a 200A, AC/DC, TIG Squarewave Inverter, Pulse, (maybe Chinese...)
Reply:I have a miller Super 32P suitcase feeder. If I remember correctly it will run on either CV or CC. I got it to run off a welder/genset that wouldn't take a std wire feeder. I've never tried to hook it up to my Syncro 200 tig machine. If I get a chance this wekend I'll see if I can dig it out of the atic and see if it works
Reply:It may work, but results will be poor.  I have used my LN-25 on a CC power source.  The wire feeder tries to control the VOLTAGE with wire speed.   The wire drive motor jerks and makes all kinds of noise trying to keep a constant voltage.  This is what makes it a voltage sensing feeder.  On CV, it just feeds the wire at the speed you set it at.Its a war between the machine and feeder (spoolgun).  MIG welding volts are 15 to 19 volts.  Stick welding volts are 27 to 32.   Tig is 11 to 15 volts. On small stuff it really sucks.  On bigger stuff you may get an acceptable weld.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by trscottI am very new here and something of a novice welder, with some experience with stick, a lot of Plasma Cutting experience, and looking to get a Squarewave Inverter AC/DC TIG. I have read a great deal about the various welding processes, so I believe I understand the basic principles pretty well. I also have quite a bit of electronics background, so I understand the difference between CC and CV (constant current vs constant voltage). I just have a screwy question: Somewhere I read the other day that one of the Chinese welder manufacturers had come out with a spoolgun and that that this spoolgun could be used with their TIG welder.  (???) Now this might have just been a typo mistake and the guy writing it may have meant MIG, but it got me to thinking, I don't know why this would not work?I know that MIG machines are conventionally CV, and that TIG and Stick are conventionally CC, but I don't know why a spoolgun would not work on a CC TIG power supply???Can someone explain this? Either on a theoretical level why it shouldn't work, or on a functional level, what would be wrong with the weld if you tried it?I am ignoring two things for the moment: Yes I know that is just not how it is done (but why not?), and ignore what it would take on a nuts and bolts level to mechanically and electrically connect this. I am confident the interface between the spoolgun and the TIG welder could be made to work with a little clever fanagling; power to the electrode wire, gas to the torch, some adjustable power to the spoolgun motor, etc. But why would it not work to weld with a wirefed electrode powered from a CC power source? If this is less crazy than I think, and if you think it could actually work, would Argon gas work in this hybrid system?I promise not to ask such crazy questions most of the time, but this one just has me scratching my head...Thanks! Cheers!
Reply:Originally Posted by David RIt may work, but results will be poor.  I have used my LN-25 on a CC power source.  The wire feeder tries to control the VOLTAGE with wire speed.   The wire drive motor jerks and makes all kinds of noise trying to keep a constant voltage.  This is what makes it a voltage sensing feeder.  On CV, it just feeds the wire at the speed you set it at.Its a war between the machine and feeder (spoolgun).  MIG welding volts are 15 to 19 volts.  Stick welding volts are 27 to 32.   Tig is 11 to 15 volts. On small stuff it really sucks.  On bigger stuff you may get an acceptable weld.David
Reply:Originally Posted by TBDgo to www.readywelder.com model 10250
Reply:VERY COOL!!!So if the ReadyWelder can work, then that says there isn't any reason wire feed with CC can't make a good weld, just a matter of powering the wire feed separately. So then the question is whether the Ready Welder spoolgun is worth the money, or should I just get a less expensive spoolgun and modify the way the motor is driven... I believe that's all they've done with the ReadyWelder.Hummmm...TIG, Stick, and Spoolgun MIG from one box.Hypertherm PMX600, Miller AC/DC Stick, O/A Gas Rig -- looking for a 200A, AC/DC, TIG Squarewave Inverter, Pulse, (maybe Chinese...)
Reply:With the proper control unit Profax has a spool gun that will work off of cc power sources.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Yep...readywelder will work, and several makers have controllers that make spoolguns work with cc machines.  My understanding is that spray is where you get the best results, though...meaning higher amps.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Originally Posted by smithboyYep...readywelder will work, and several makers have controllers that make spoolguns work with cc machines.  My understanding is that spray is where you get the best results, though...meaning higher amps.
Reply:All I am gonna say is you will not be happy running any kind of wire of CC. It spatters, sticks, burns funny, and is just plain not nice. If you are burning 5/64 NR-211 or .045 hard wire with CO2 it isn't to bad, but dont think that CC will be the MIG you want it to be.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Originally Posted by TozziWeldingAll I am gonna say is you will not be happy running any kind of wire of CC. It spatters, sticks, burns funny, and is just plain not nice. If you are burning 5/64 NR-211 or .045 hard wire with CO2 it isn't to bad, but dont think that CC will be the MIG you want it to be.
Reply:One of my engine drives has cc or cv mode. In cc mode it has a max of 82 volts and in cv mode it has a max of 42 volts. Mig machines are cv and stick machines are cc. I tried a 7018 stick in cv mode and it didn't go. My inverters manual says not to run sticks in cv mode. I have only read about the readywelder but to weld with it on cc they provide an ac/dc converter that provides the voltage for the guns internals. I have operated my hefty wire feeder on cc with acceptable results, but there is a great deal more splatter than on cv. The difference is that the adapter provides constant voltage to the guns internals and the feeders internals operate off of the varying arc voltage  of cc mode. Based off of my experiences with the wire feeders, and that is all a spoolgun is, I wouldn't expect spectacular results from the spoolgun on cc. I have done some pretty serious research into spool guns and cannot recall Miller or Lincoln even mentioning operating theirs on cc which makes me a bit skeptical of the claims of other manufacturers.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jolly RogerOne of my engine drives has cc or cv mode. In cc mode it has a max of 82 volts and in cv mode it has a max of 42 volts. Mig machines are cv and stick machines are cc. I tried a 7018 stick in cv mode and it didn't go. My inverters manual says not to run sticks in cv mode. I have only read about the readywelder but to weld with it on cc they provide an ac/dc converter that provides the voltage for the guns internals. I have operated my hefty wire feeder on cc with acceptable results, but there is a great deal more splatter than on cv. The difference is that the adapter provides constant voltage to the guns internals and the feeders internals operate off of the varying arc voltage  of cc mode. Based off of my experiences with the wire feeders, and that is all a spoolgun is, I wouldn't expect spectacular results from the spoolgun on cc. I have done some pretty serious research into spool guns and cannot recall Miller or Lincoln even mentioning operating theirs on cc which makes me a bit skeptical of the claims of other manufacturers.
Reply:Originally Posted by trscottJollyRoger, Please read my post right before yours. I am not talking about driving the wire feed from the CC supply, I am only talking about creating weld arc with the CC, and providing a separate CV supply to run the spoolgun wirefeed. -ts
Reply:Originally Posted by Jolly RogerTry rereading mine. The answer is there.
Reply:TRSCOTT, you seem really knowledgeable on electronics so for what it's worth, here is some information to mull over that may help your project.  This is long and will seem to be pointless at first but bear with me as your understanding of electronics is probly greater than mine, but I like to fool around with it and entertain various ideas that many think are not possible or out of the norm.   Maybe DenRep can get in on this discussion too and add his ideas, he's very knowlegeable on this kinda stuff.Ok this starts out with the Miller XR Control push-pull feeder, which runs off both CV or CC or CV/CC combination.  Basicaly, it will run off just about anything.   Check it out on the Miller website for more info (link below).  I have this feeder here but only use it on CV so far.So we're on the same page, push-pull means that a wire feeder box (the XR Control in this case), with a wire spool holder and a wire drive motor inside the box, pushes welding wire down a hollow flexible conduit, and a mig gun, with it's own seperate wire drive motor, pulls the wire through the conduit in concert with the feeder and out the torch end to the weld.  This system can work with conduits up to 50 feet long, probly longer, but 50' is the most I've seen for sale.  I have a few push-pull feeder/torch systems here, mostly Cobramatics and one XR, that work well for feeding soft aluminum wire.  The longest torch I have is 25'.   The wire speed control is on the gun instead of on the feeder in a push-pull system.   My appologies if you already know this info not tryin to talk down to you or anything, just not sure if you knew about it or not.The XR 15A/30A Pistol-grip push-pull gun that comes with the XR feeder is the same gun that Miller also sells as the Spoolmatic 15A/30A stand-alone spool gun, except the Spoolmatic has a wire spool holder attatched to it and the XR Pistol gun has a wire conduit attatched to it instead of the spool cannister.  The other end of the wire conduit attatches to the XR feeder.  The wire drive motors, potentiometers, trigger microswitches, gun bodies, barrel assemblies and all the other parts of the guns, including the wiring harness, are the same between the two guns.   I know about this cause I converted my XR15A push-pull gun into a Spoolmatic 15A spool gun by removing the wire conduit and retro-fitting it with the spool holder parts from a Spoolmatic.  The assembly slides right in the back of the gun and tightens down and it's ready to weld with.  No other changes necessary.  It works very well and I use it as a spool gun connected to my 350P (not using the feeder in the 350P).  I had to change the wiring connector cause my new 350P and my older XR feeder use different connectors, but all the same wires are used.   The newer XR feeder probly uses the same connector as the 350P.Anyways, back the XR, which was my point to begin with.  The XR Control feeder runs off 24VAC when used with constant voltage and there is a power supply inside it that rectifies the 24VAC to 24VDC to power the drive motor in the Pistol gun.   There is a 3 wire connection for the speed control potentiometer and one of those wires (I think) supplies 10 volts dc to the pot, if I understand and/or remember the wiring schematic right.  I could be wrong on the number of volts to the pot.  The older model XR feeder that I have runs on 115VAC and has a power supply inside it that changes it to 24VDC for the gun motor.  The other wiring going to the gun are- ground, 24VAC+, trigger in, trigger out, and the aforementioned 3 wires for the pot.  The wiring and connector pin-outs are the same for both the push-pull gun and the spool gun.     The Spoolmatic spool gun is made to work with CV power sources that have either 115VAC or 24VAC and requires either a WC115A or WC24 external power supply to convert the 115 or 24 volts AC to 24VDC to power the spool gun, or it can be connected directly to a CV power source with a 24VDC output and remote voltage/contactor out/input, such as a Millermatic 252 or 350/350P.  The WC115A and WC24 both allow for the remote voltage/contactor connection for the spool gun.  On the model WC115A with Contactor, the welding power source does not need to have remote voltage/contactor control capability.   It can be used on any stick welder.   The WC24 needs to be hooked up to a power source that has the remote connection capability.Ok now I do not know or understand exactly HOW the XR feeder works or hooks up to a CC power source.  I only understand and have experience with it on CV, but it is made to work with CC.  My suggestion is to study the owner's manual and the circuit diagrams for the XR feeder, which are available for free download on Miller's website: www.millerwelds.com (go to the 'resources' tab, click 'owner's manuals', scroll down till  you find XR feeder/XR guns or XR Control, and download the manual in .pdf format).  The wiring schematics and parts lists in the manuals are very good, I have studied alot of them for my conversion ideas.   Anyways, from this you should learn how the XR feeder works with constant current (and then please make a post here telling us about it), so then you might come up with an idea of how to use a Spoolmatic gun with a constant-current power source (and again, please tell us about it!).   The WC115A is also made to be used with CV or CC so you may want to study that one too. So I guess the short answer, after all that typing, is to connect a WC115A in between your CC welder and a Spoolmatic and see how it works, or hook up an XR feeder/torch to the welder and see how that works.  It would be a very expensive experiment though, the WC115A cost over $500 and the Spoolmatic cost about $1000.   The XR system cost about $3000.Last edited by DesertRider33; 03-15-2008 at 03:08 AM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:I believe I followed all that. I think the main thing would be to download the Miller documentation. I will do that and see how much they tell me. But at that kind of cost, I won't be using their controller. But info about the wiring of a spoolgun and the controller would be very helpful. I can whip up a 24VDC CV supply with an adjustment pot for very little cost. I would be surprised if it cost more than $20 or so. I probably have an old 24VDC linear supply kicking around the shop someplace, just to play with. The spoolgun motor won't require very much current I'm sure. I may even play around with designing a low-power CC to CV conversion circuit, with the help of a co-worker who actually is quite expert at power electronics design. I know such a thing is doable, he'll know exactly how. I'm a pretty fair electronics hacker, but he's the real deal when it comes to power electronics design. He could design a system with the quality of a Miller Dynasty DX or a Fronius from a blank sheet of paper. With a CC to CV converter, the footpedal or hand-control amperage adjustments to the CC supply would adjust the spoolgun speed, and then you could provide a scale and fine tune adjustment to that with a couple pots. Seems like the real issue is to make sure the wire speed is compatible with the CC amperage setting so you get the right amount of wire for the arc strength. Thanks for the information. Don't expect any follow-up on this right away, lots on my plate, still at the stage of just an interesting idea, but at some point I am going to want to give this a shot. First I have to decide which AC/DC TIG machine I am going to spring for. But I will want to explore this at some point. I mainly want to do TIG, but if I can make a spoolgun work that would be very helpful. Cheers!Last edited by trscott; 03-15-2008 at 05:18 AM.Hypertherm PMX600, Miller AC/DC Stick, O/A Gas Rig -- looking for a 200A, AC/DC, TIG Squarewave Inverter, Pulse, (maybe Chinese...)
Reply:Hmm, CC to CV converter...  I'm guessing the XR feeder probly has something inside it that does that.  Most spool guns have the speed control (and gas valve) on the gun so you probly don't need to reinvent that part of it.   The weld output voltage and the wire feed speed are adjusted seperately on most migs so no need to marry them together, unless you want to.   I would eliminate the foot pedal from the system altogether, adjust amps on the front panel of the machine, use the wire feed speed control in the gun to adjust the wire feed speed and use the trigger microswitch on the gun to open/close the contactor in the power source.   So basicaly wire the gun to the machine just like a spool gun normally wires in on a mig welding powersource as far as weld output and contactor control circuits are concerned... with the difference being add your CC to CV conversion circuit in between the machine and the gun on the weld output cable and add your 24VDC power supply, taking power from wherever you decide, maybe some circuit inside the machine, or maybe power it seperately from 110v outlet, with the voltage control for it wired from the speed control potentiometer in the gun and voltage output from the power supply to the motor in the gun.Basicaly what you would be doing is building your own WC115A controller so I would start by studying the electrical diagrams for that.   Or... look for a used one for sale somewhere to experiment with.   I would like to find a used one, the model with it's own contactor, so I can use my spool gun on my engine-drive welder that does have CV output but doesn't have feeder control capability.  I looked into building one myself but decided rather than reinvent the wheel I would just keep my eyes open for a used one at a good price. One more thing, the gas valve in my spool gun is mechanicaly operated by the trigger mechanism.  Not all spool guns have the gas valve in the gun.   The less expensive Miller SpoolMATE (different from SpoolMATIC) series guns don't have the gas valve (they don't run on 24vdc either, I think they use 36v).  If you wanted to get fancy and have the machine control pre- and post-gas flow times, the gas valve in the Spoolmatic gun could be removed or bypassed and the gas hose connected to the power source's gas valve instead so it opens and closes it from it's own control circuit already present in the machine, if so equipped (not all tig machines have the gas valve but most do).  Good luck with it and keep us updated on how it goes!MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Thanks! Yet some more good suggestions. I think I would go with a spoolgun that does not have a gas valve, as you say, so the TIG machine could control the pre and post gas flow. Also maybe a cheaper spoolgun that way. Eliminating the footpedal is probably the simple way to go. Use the front panel amps control, and then just like a MIG process, once you pull the trigger on the spoolgun, you want to be moving the gun at a steady rate. On the other hand, conceptually, it seems like it might be kind of interesting, once you have a good feel for controlling a conventional TIG welder with the foot pedal, to be able to use the footpedal with a spoolgun and be able to adjust the spoolgun interface so that it feeds wire at a rate that is well synchronized with the power of the footpedal controlled arc. So you could go fast or slow, deep penetration or shallow, controlled by the footpedal. I don't know, but it might work.Interesting anyway. I've got lots of experimenting to do. Cheers!I appreciate the food for thought.Hypertherm PMX600, Miller AC/DC Stick, O/A Gas Rig -- looking for a 200A, AC/DC, TIG Squarewave Inverter, Pulse, (maybe Chinese...)
Reply:Anyway, I just wanted to hasten to repeat, that I am not going to get to this project for perhaps quite a while, but I do intend to explore this at some point. Just don't wany anyone holding their breath. Lots to do first...Cheers!ps: (Aside: Strange, sometimes this forum will let me edit my postings (to correct typos and clarify something and so on) and sometimes even though I am logged in, it will not let me edit my own postings after they've been posted???)Hypertherm PMX600, Miller AC/DC Stick, O/A Gas Rig -- looking for a 200A, AC/DC, TIG Squarewave Inverter, Pulse, (maybe Chinese...)
Reply:I can identify with that.  I get ideas and spend alot of time thinking about it and it might be a long time before I get around to putting the plan into action.  No worries.It depends on how much time has elapsed since you made the post.  I think we get like 15 min to edit or something like that.  After that, no editing allowed.If I was going to use the foot pedal with a mig, I would want the pedal to control both the weld output power and the wire feed speed, married together.   Increasing and decreasing one without the other during a weld wouldn't be too fun to weld with.Last edited by DesertRider33; 03-15-2008 at 05:04 PM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by trscottWell then, I am not understanding what you said. Sounds like you're talking about powering the spoolgun with CC, which I am not.Originally Posted by Jolly Roger ... Last try ...
Reply:http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/M1-5.pdfsee the WC-115a it does cc.  Like folks say here, the cc functions, but cv is better in most circumstances...With that said, I have seen some very nice aluminum mig welds with cc powersources using spray transfer.  I only have limited experience with the spool guns, but cc migging with a regular gun, I have done enough to know it can be done, and that cv is substantially easier and better.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.