Questions for all welders

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Hi,my name is Tom and I graduated from high school a couple of years ago and now I'm thinking about trying to become a full time welder.Eventually, I'd like to be able to work for myself as a welder.  But I have some questions:How easy is it to work as an independent contractor doing welding for a company?  Is it true that there is high demand for welders?Also, how do independent welders find this work?  Should I be advertsing in yellow pages, etc?Right now, I'm young and I can move to work anywhere in the country.Thanks,Tom
Reply:Welcome TomDS. Working for yourself is hard demanding work but very rewarding. If you have the drive to succeed I believe you will. Yes there is a lot of work for welders. Oil field work is almost always available. Construction / heavy equipment repairs is another good area. The list could go on. I'd look for a good job working in the field for a company thats willing to let you learn. I would then considder a smaller firm that would let you gat the feel of a varity of jobs and what it takes to run a small business. I'm starting to work for myself Ftime now, and there are a lot of things besides the day to day work to get the job done. It can be somewhat overwelming but I know it will pass.Good luck.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI'm starting to work for myself Ftime now, and there are a lot of things besides the day to day work to get the job done. It can be somewhat overwelming but I know it will pass..
Reply:Originally Posted by TomDSHi,How easy is it to work as an independent contractor doing welding for a company?  Is it true that there is high demand for welders?Tom
Reply:Tell all of us oilfield welders how there is always welding work there. Yep there is as long as the price of oil stays up, but when it drops you can't give a welding rig away. I know as I grew up there and spent 30 years working in it. To contract you will need a minimum of 2 million in general liability but it could be higher than that now plus you will have to carry workmens comp even if you have no employees other than yourself and it won't cover you. You can run contract for someone else under their insurance, but you only work when he has more than his employees can handle. There is nothing easy about starting your own business or being self-employed otherwise the vast majority wouldn't fail within the first 5 years. Owning the outfit means you will work harder than you ever have in your life and frequently with a lot less profit. Not trying to discourage you either just telling you the reality. I get the majority of my work from repeat customers and word of mouth. I have used advertising and did get work from it, but nothing to write home about. Mostly minor stuff from people that think you should work for free. Most welders are fairly specialized now simply because nobody can get truly good at all aspects of it. So your best bet is find what you do and like best and get good at it. The best way to do this is by working for someone else. If you don't already know what you are doing when you go on your own you will not be able to last. I grew up in the welding business, oilfield welding to be exact, and my dad owned the company so I do know a bit about it. I'm not in the oilfield now but am self-employed. I may go back to it though.Last edited by Jolly Roger; 04-05-2008 at 10:10 PM.Reason: left something outThe difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Jolly Roger Ok I'll admit I may have over simplfied that statement. I was just thinking of the jobs that I see available most and where skilled work is truely needed. More of where he could start working for others and learning, than for working for himself. Any type of const. business has its ups and downs. The housing slump is hitting me now. It dosen't mean that there are no jobs, just that the number has dropped. Good workers will usually find work, the ones that are lazy or mediocre get dropped from good companies mostly. Your comments on insurance and workmans comp are on the money regardless of the industry. I just picked up mine at 1 millon / 2 million for coverage. PA will let you opt to be included in your workmans comp now if you are self employed. This is new within the last year I believe.TomDS  I was sort of pushed into working for myself. I got hurt on a part time job and couldn't work my regular job. By the time I could work they had found someone else to do it. Most of my work has ended up swinging a hammer doing construction. Winter is the slow time of year and work is beginning to pick up. My welding is as a hobby/repair on my own stuff primarily, but I do have several guys that will pick me up because I can weld as well as do other things. Modify truck racks, build small one off items, fix snow plows, tack weld / cut for a commercial diver in the water top side etc. It amounts to about 10% of my bottom line. Hey I'll do almost any thing to cover the bills when its slow.I agree 100% with what Hammack_Welding said. I hate paper work and estimates. I'd rather build the stuff. I send a ton of time running around doing estimates and checking prices to put together proposals in the evenings. I'm still trying to develop a system that works for me and cuts down on wasted office time. It was a lot easier to just show up and work then go home.About 1/2 my work comes from people who I have worked under as their employee, now as a sub. The other work is mostly word of mouth from satisfied customers. Give good quality, do what you say when you say, be honest, stand behind your work, and charge a fair price. I try to avoid people who want to nickel and dime a job. They only want something for nothing and will seldom be happy with what you do. They either think you charged to much for what you did or they feel the quality isn't up to what they wanted. Want a new lexus in quality for the cost of a beat up '82 Chevy. They also seem the slowest to pay when finished. Almost all my problem customers seem to fall in this category. Now if I get a bad feeling about a customer who is trying to be cheap I walk away. Not worth my hassle. Raising the price doesn't seem to work, as I still seam to loose in the end.When you find the few customers that understand quality and are willing to pay for it, do everything you can to keep them happy. They will come back over and over and send more work your way. I have two or three that I have done side work over the years for. They are the primary reason I can give it a go right now. The people they have pointed my way makes up more than 65% of my current customers. I'll go way out of my way to keep them happy and its paying off. Its kind of nice when one customer wants to give you more money than you ask because they feel you are under charging them for a job no one else will bother to touch because its too small. That customer service.
Reply:I want to thank everybody for your help so far.  I appreciate it.I'm going to start the process of looking for a job like you suggested, but can somebody tell me about the paperwork (eg insurance, contracts, etc)  involved when working as an independent weldor?  Is there somewhere I can go to get access to these forms or to see what's needed?Also, what is it like doing estimates?  How do they work...are they difficult?  Thanks!Tom
Reply:Tom, I think that is the point everyone is trying to make.  Things like estimates, knowing what to charge, how do work estimates, what insurance you will need, etc.... is only learned by by experience.  As far as where to get insurance then just start calling local insurance agents and talk to them about quoting you General liability insurance.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:OK I'll try and answer, if nothing else to see how far out my ideas are. If I am wrong guys let me know, as this is an area I'm still a little murky on.Insurance and contracts are all about Covering your A$$.My general liability insurance covers issues that arise from a job. It would cover slip and fall, if someone tripped over a cord of mine on a job site. It also would cover damages if something went wrong, say I dropped something and it went tru a window of the neighbors house or if my soldering torch started a fire. It would also cover material failures. I chose not to carry building collapse insurance, since I don't do full additions, but if I did steel for structures I believe it would be a must. There are a ton of things that are/are not covered and different policys to cover then. I know the guy I work for diving. carries special enviromental insurance to cover oil spills for example.General Liability will not cover injuries on the job for workers. You need a seperate policy for that. I belive thats covered under worker comp. As said above in many places if you are the owner you have to get it but are not covered by it.BTW from what I understand from my welding instructor if you want to CYA you need welding certs. He hammered this pretty hard on the fisrt night of class, explaining if something goes wrong and you don't have certs your insurance may not cover you. Remember your insurance co. will cover thier a$$ 1st, yours 2nd. If they can find a reason NOT to pay because of something you, did they will. This leaves you holding the bill.Contracts cover what you plan to give the client and what you expect from him. Are you just supplying labor, tools and labor or tools labor and materials. How much will you get paid and when, I usually as for 1/3's on larger jobs. What is or is not included. If you fix a rusty car panel, is it only the door or the whole car? What happens if you find unexpected dificulties, Say the door latch is broken when you get the car and can't open it. Who pays to get it fixed? I got burned when one customer claimed that I agreed to do all the floors in his house for the price I gave him for just the upstairs. He then refused to pay for any materials to put down the floor that he didn't have. I was supposed to just provide labor, he would provide the materials, instead I took a 33% pay cut to cover the materials he didn't have. I didn't have it in writing and once materials are dropped at the site, they automaticly become the property of the home owner unless previously stated around here.One thing you haven't mentioned is how you set up your business. Will you incorperate, set up a LLC or just work as a sole propriater? From what I understand Inc. is the best way to CYA. The company takes on most of the liability, and you work as an employee of the company. This costs about $5k from what I understand from my lawyer and accountant to set it all up. I know very little about LLC. Maybe someone who is set up this way will chime in. As a sole propriater, if something goes wrong you can be hanging out in the wind to cover it yourself. All your personal assets are up for grabs at trial. A primary concern would be your house if you own it. But vehicles, guns, tools, anything of value could be taken. Right now I can't afford to Inc. If I end up inheriting the house from my parents that would be one of the first things I would do to protect myself.Estimates can be easy or hard. If you keep good records of what you do and how much it cost, how long it took what materials you used, it helps alot. Repete work is relativly simple. If you build a trailer and then want to build another identical one, you should already know what to charge after figureing cost of material increase. If you build a lawn mower trailer then get asked to build a horse trailer, you almost have to start the process from scratch. It's the little one off jobs that I find the hardest to estimate for time. As I do more I am getting a better feel for it and learning where I need to build in more time. Materials are relatively straight forward as long as you include ALL the parts. Another area where I have to get better at figureing the small stuff like sand paper, drill bits, caulk etc. I can get the big stuff, its the nickel and dime items that suddenly add up to big money.I'll be honest with you. I'm all for someone who wants to work hard and do what they want but I really don't think you are ready to do it yourself. You would be best off getting a FT job welding for someone else and after a year start by picking up small side jobs. Theres no way I could estimate how long it would take to weld a trailer to do it for money. Heck I'm having a hard enough time pricing one out to build for myself to see if its cost effective vs buying one. I'm having enough trouble wading thru all the insurance bs and contract stuff and I've worked in const. for 15 years. Just trying to get full coverage for my new truck was a PITA. No 2 agents answered the same question the same way. I found several that had left huge gaps in my coverage. (showed the estimate to another agent and asked why they were so different in price.) One guy ommited covering my new body on the truck, just covered the cab and cassis, so if the truck was hit it would almost instantly be totalled. Good luck.
Reply:Hammack-Welding, Jolly Roger, and DSW have all given you very good advise. I might add that when the day is done and everyone working by by the hour is done, you are not and you don't get paid for what you have  to do now. There is maintainance on your equipment, servicing up for the next day, and paperwork. I used to save all my work ticket writing for Sunday afternoon and it took most of the afternoon. When I was called out on Sunday I did it at night. You cannot refuse a job or call-out from a good customer. You might get by with it a time or two. Then they won't be such a good customer or no customer at all. Always be on time, if you are to report at 7 o'clock be there at 6:45, ready to go. Do the highest quality work you are capable of and always try to improve. Charge a fair price and do the job as quickly as possible. If you can save them money, tell them how. If you tell them it will be done on Friday, be sure that it is. Customers appreciate this.When you go into business for yourself you will quickly find you are not your own boss. Every customer you have is your boss. You will have to determine who you want to work for. Lose the ones who are slow to pay, won't pay, or are dangerous because they want you to do something unsafe. Last but not least, are you ready to work more hours to make the same money you could by drawing a paycheck? This will play a big part in how sucessful you are.
Reply:DSW, I agree with you on everything you said except about having the certs.  Certs are good, and in some areas they will be required and needed.  However there are areas where a cert doesn't mean anything.  I even asked my insurance agent about whether certs would be needed and his reply was no.  If there was a problem with a job they had to pay on it would be investigated anyway, and whether you have a cert or not isn;t going to change that.  One other thing to consider.  People in the repair end of the field like me aren't able to keep a cert even if they had it.  My understanding is that you have to work a job requiring a cert atleast every 6 months for an AWS cert or you have to retest.  I haven't worked on 10 jobs in the past 12 years that required a cert so it would be next to impossible, and costly to keep it.  don't get me wrong.  I am not knocking anyone who is certified, but for certain areas it is really an expense that is not needed.      As far as the estimates it like I stated before.  It just takes time to get a feel for things.  When I first started I screwed up alot of estimates because I kept overlooking small things.  After awhile you can pretty much look at a job and figure it in your head pretty close.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Thanks Hammack_Welding. That's good info to know. Like I said all I had was my instructors word for it and he is a aws tester. He may be more familiar with cert. work than others. Regardless he a great instructor at teaching hands on real world basics. It is nice to know that my but may not be quite so far out in the wind on small projects. I completely trust my welds for non structural applications, and am working towards the goal of complete confidence in all my work. At least I can no longer just feel I just put metal together.
Reply:If you are really up for moving anywhere and learning the ropes I'd recommend Ft. McMurray, Canada.  They are desperate for craft up there and many companies will train you in exchange for a commitment to work for a specific period of time.Spend some time learning on someone else's dime.  Training is expensive and mistakes are even more so.  Find out what you like doing and then focus on that after you have honed your skills.http://www.fortmcmurrayonline.com/jobs/welcome.aspxhttp://www.ironworkers720.com/
Reply:Tom,You've asked a few really broad questions and gotten a lot of great advice regarding insurance, contracts, customers, etc.What I haven't seen discussed are Your Welding Qualifications.  What welding have you done?  What training have you had?  What welding/fab equipment do you already own?All these things are important and, to be honest, need to be considered before most of the other advice you've received.If, as you say, you just finished HS a few years ago and are just starting to weld, then you need to get some training and work in the field for several years before you even think about starting your own welding business.Learning to weld + starting your own business = guaranteed failure.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.