welding heavy plate

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I need some advise on how to weld 1" plate to 1 1/2" plate. We have a DP400 wire welder with.045 wire. The scan is hard to read but the base plate is 1 1/2" thick and the upright piece is 1". The gussetts on the side are 1/2". I have been told that I may need to preheat the material prior to welding. It is all grade 50 material. Attached Images
Reply:some welding engineer made that drawing and specified fillet welds. should he not also  clarify the preheat and anything else?
Reply:Generaly the shop I work in now, anything over 1 inch needs preheat. Not much but enought to evaporate any moisture that may form on the plate during the welding process. 250 degrees should be plenty of heat. If the plate is a different grade of steel ie. T-100, AR plate ,weathering steel (I cant remember the number of this steel but we have built bridges with it) then different amounts of preheat will be required. What size is the fillet welds?I'm guessing about 3/8 to 1/2 fillet welds are required for the thickness of plate you specified. You mentioned that  .045 wire will be used! is this dual shield, innershield fluxcore or is it solid wire?.  I would recomend using 1/16 dia. dual shield fluxcore wire as .045 seems a little small for welding this size of plate.
Reply:Miller's weld parameter calculator only goes up to 1/2 inch (or up) steel, but that suggests 0.045 solid wire, spray transfer using 98-2 ar-O2 at 390 ipm and 29-30 V for ~315 amps.I would have thought a bigger diameter wire would be needed or desired for working on 1 and 1.5 inch thick plate.Preheat rarely hinders the welding, and usually helps things.  Preheat min and max and interpass temp limits may be dictated by any applicable codes.
Reply:As an Ironworker who regularly welds heavy plate I would say .045 is way too small for what you will be doing. If it were me I would go up to something closer to an 0.68, 5/64 would even work for you and make very quick work of creating the 3/8 to 1/2 fillet as talked about above. If you are in a shop I guess solid wire would work best but being a outdoorsy kind of welder I would go with what I know best...good old Innersheild.As for pre-heat...I know A992 and lower steel up 1 1/2inches needs to be preheated to 70 degrees F. 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inches is only 150. You really don't want to heat this thing up any more then needed. Like Moonrise said inner pass temps, and post heating may be required by code...if this is under code work that is...it may also be specified on the print itself somewhere. 'Mike
Reply:I can't read your print.  Can you blow it up?I would preheat to 225.  Short arc is not the best way to go, spray  would be better, dual shield would be better yet.1" plate needs a fillet with 3/4" legs for full strength.  The print should have a size  for the welds on it.  All I could find in the bible is for 1" plate, fillet weld, 3/4" weld size, 1 pass   3/32 electrode, 100 ipm, 450 amps, 28 volts, arc speed 7" per minute, 40 to 45 cfh 95% argon, 5% 02.I found this in chapter 3. Up to .45% carbon preheat is optional.45% to .60% carbon preheat 200 to 400.  I also found ASTM grade 55, 60 and 65 preheat 3/4" to 1 1/2" plate to 150 (f).  This is for Low hydrogen electrode, Gmaw, or flux cored arc welding.Hope I helped.The bible is the Procedure handbook of arc welding by Lincoln.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:5/32" 7018 Stick @ 300-350 Amps D.C. will do it.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:5/32" 7018  150 to 220 amps  3/16" 7018  200 to 275 amps.7/32" 7018  200 to 275 amps1/4" 7018   315 to 400 amps. Page 6.2-2. in the Bible.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:how much warpage would you expect in that piece?insert thoughtful quote from someone else2000 Thermal Arc 300GTSW 3.5 hours1946 Monarch 20 x 54 Lathe1998 Supermax 10x54 Mill2004 Haco Atlantic 1/2" Capacity Lasernot mine but i get to play with it
Reply:You need enough preheat to prevent cracking. 150 degrees ought to do. But heat everything evenly well beyond the weld zone.also...See AWS D1.1 ~ 3.5 & table 3.2   City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Originally Posted by zapster5/32" 7018 Stick @ 300-350 Amps D.C. will do it.....zap!
Reply:Your code will dictate what your preheat is. From looking at AWS D1.1 table 3.2 category B A992/A572-50 over 3/4 thru 1 1/2 incl. requires a minimum of 50 degrees F.
Reply:Originally Posted by TEKWay,way too many amps....half of that is about right. All that will get you is trouble.
Reply:[QUOTE=zapster;194121]Really?Hmmmmmmm...There is a little undercut but not bad..Looks good to me even though it's only on one side..It can be done.I just did it.Well, I guess I'll just take this 30 yr old LA City structural cert and just throw it in the trash then.YOU said it can be done, and YOU did it so what else is there to discuss?Worthless piece of paper, I'll just refer them to YOU, ok? What do all them guys know, anyway?
Reply:Hold on now..Not meaning to "start anything" I read what was typed..Did what I did...So whats the problem?Granted it might not be pretty but if I wanted pretty 300 amps tig would do.Look it's all an experiment to see what happens..I just showed what happens thats all.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I have learned over the years that every welder has their own way fo doing things. I have seen guys run wire and it looks like crap technique...chip it away and it looks like it was welded by a machine in the flat position... Obviously Zap knows his stuff and showed you can create good welds with the settings he prescribed. What I do know is that you can stack up beads all day but you it won't matter after you get past the thickness of the materials being welded.If wire feed is what you want to go with I would go with the innersheild. Nice deposition rate and a great looking bead if done properly.But stick is just as good it will just take longer.'Mike
Reply:I weld on those plate thicknesses all day at work. .045 would be ok. But 1/16 would be better. for .045 set the machine at 26.5V and 350 WFS. for 1/16 set it at 27 volts and 250 WFS. Oh by the way i am talking dual shield here with strait co2. --Gol'
Reply:I used to work in a code certified heat exchanger shop where most of what we did was covered under API for heated pressure vessels. I built some tube heads that  were built using 1" to 1 1/2" in the manner described. The one inch was internal and the external walls were 1 1/2. All of the internal welds were made using .035 bare wire with C25 using a 5/8 fillet (this will pull 1 1/2 with a 4 inch bead. The external welds were done with a 6010 root and hotpass and filled with 7018. The cap was 1 1/2" wide and made in one pass using 3/32 outershield. The caps were ground flush and then the heads were hydro tested at 60,000 psi. No pre or post heat were used and temp in the shop before I started welding was around 80 degrees (it got a lot hotter before I was done, lol). The procedure was specified by the engineer of record. Not suggesting you do it this just giving an example of what was done. My advice is check the print for specs and if there are none on it get with the engineer. It should have either a specified code (which will give you the procedure) of the engineer should specify it. That's why he gets paid the big bucks, and it reduces your liability should there be any problems.Last edited by Jolly Roger; 06-20-2008 at 08:22 PM.Reason: added to itThe difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterHold on now..Not meaning to "start anything" I read what was typed..Did what I did...So whats the problem?Granted it might not be pretty but if I wanted pretty 300 amps tig would do.Look it's all an experiment to see what happens..I just showed what happens thats all.....zap!
Reply:I never read the "Bible" or do I intend to do so in the near future..TEK...Look the thread was not about stick welding it in the first place..Yes I opened aBut so what?There is no argument that full penetration happened..There is no reason to keep dragging this out when the pics prove the point..I'm not writing my own "Bible"..Just trying out some "Bible" myths...Why don't you do some of the same thing and post pics..The floor is yours...It's not a competition..It's a comparison.And about the penetrattion..Thats going noplace in a hurry.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterI never read the "Bible" or do I intend to do so in the near future.."You already know it all?--Like David R said, the 'bible' he referenced was the Lincoln Procedure handbook "TEK...Look the thread was not about stick welding it in the first place". I know that. You were the first one to mention stick. With wrong info, I might add..."Yes I opened aBut so what?There is no argument that full penetration happened..There is no reason to keep dragging this out when the pics prove the point..I'm not writing my own "Bible".You really just dont get it, do you?The 'so what' of the issue is you gave a man wrong info and wont admit it."Just trying out some "Bible" myths."..What myth? 5/32  7018 @ 300 amps is incorrect procedure. Its in the Lincoln handbook."Why don't you do some of the same thing and post pics..The floor is yours..".I dont need to prove anything to you. All the pics that matter to me are on file with the NRC in San Onofre, CA..."It's not a competition..It's a comparison."And in that context, you come up a bit short....."And about the penetrattion..Thats going noplace in a hurry..:nono"Your right there---your mind is made up, dont cloud the issue with anything like facts......zap!
Reply:I always like the Blue vs the White. Book welding vs Welding welding. All i have to say is books aren't always the right way. Hell if we all did it by a book, there would be no new **** being made. I always throw out the book.
Reply:Originally Posted by TEKHave a nice day..I've already wasted too much time on this.
Reply:Running 5/32 at 300 amps would make the rod look like a red noodle before it got to the end.  The flux is burned on the rod before it gets to the plate.  Spatter will be excess.I have run a lot of 5/32 7018 @ 180 to 190 amps.  To me that is the sweet spot.There are Welding Procedure Specifications.  Almost written in stone for amps and rod size.When running rod that far out of the range, the puddle can boil and include slag, undercutting will happen because the rod is not melting off fast enough to fill the big hole it is digging.Sometimes the recommended amps are right on the box if rod.Lets keep this polite.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:A true gentlmen welder David R. Thank you for a well thought out and explained post. I would agree that AWS, ASTM, API ect...all have written procedures for things for a reason. For instance a lot of guys in the ironworkers weld the stick as far down as possible whereass I know from conversations with various CWI's and Senior CWI's that welding "past the numbers' can change the composition of the rod...low hydorgen filler looses low hy properties ect...I am going to side with David R. HOWEVER we all have welded with machines where the dial says its at XXX amps but welds more like XYY amps. Who is to say Zaps machine is calibrated correctly? Talk about grabbing at straws but hey it IS possible.'Mike46/71, I'll to try to shed a little light on your question about who wrote the Lincoln book. The second page in the book acknowledges all the sources used to compile the information  presented in the book and it fills the whole page. I won't type all the information but it includes most of the premier steel and welding businesses and  the ASTM, AWS, and ASM. Lincoln Electric is one of the big dogs in the arc welding industry worldwide and they provide factual information for all the arc welding processes. As David said, it is the arc welding bible. I have used it since 1969 and have never found any false information in it. If your question concerns arc welding most of the answers are in this book.
Reply:Lincoln Electric IS the BIG DOG and every one else just follows I mean just look at there product catalog compared to Miller, Lincoln has 171 pages where as Miller only has 98 pages. But we won't dig into the Red Vs. Blue debate here. I personally have a copy of the Lincoln Bible and use it as a reference almost daily even though it was printed in the 70's.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapster5/32" 7018 Stick @ 300-350 Amps D.C. will do it.....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldtimer46/71, I'll to try to shed a little light on your question about who wrote the Lincoln book. The second page in the book acknowledges all the sources used to compile the information  presented in the book and it fills the whole page. I won't type all the information but it includes most of the premier steel and welding businesses and  the ASTM, AWS, and ASM. Lincoln Electric is one of the big dogs in the arc welding industry worldwide and they provide factual information for all the arc welding processes. As David said, it is the arc welding bible. I have used it since 1969 and have never found any false information in it. If your question concerns arc welding most of the answers are in this book.
Reply:Originally Posted by mark8310Fact, doubling or tripling your amps, for whatever size rod, will only double or triple your porosity, and slag inclusions, and place them deeper into the weld zone.   Typical amateur mistake, and why I make the big dollars afterwards
Reply:Originally Posted by 46/71 HybridCould I get the ISBN for the Lincoln book? I'm not a professional arc welder by any means but it would be nice to have an all knowing reference guide. Does the same type of book exist for Mig? I've read the intro guides and different stuff on the web but again, it'd be nice to have a definitive reference.
Reply:Originally Posted by 46/71 HybridCould I get the ISBN for the Lincoln book? I'm not a professional arc welder by any means but it would be nice to have an all knowing reference guide. Does the same type of book exist for Mig? I've read the intro guides and different stuff on the web but again, it'd be nice to have a definitive reference.
Reply:If you are making these in pairs I suggest tacking them back to back before welding.  .045 wire will do the job.  Generally single pass fillet welds over 3/8 inch are risky because of shrinkage stress across the face of the fillet.  You can put in a 3/8 fillet in with .045 wire or 1/16th wire.  Yes you will need to preheat.  This is very important for such heavy sections.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterI never read the "Bible" or do I intend to do so in the near future..I'm not writing my own "Bible".....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by 46/71 HybridThis is the concept I'm struggling with since when Zap showed a sliced piece of his steel plate, it looked uniform all the way through. Are you saying that even when something looks like that, it can still be an inferior weld. If that's the case, how should the home hobbyist examine his practice welds? When I weld flat stuff (my pipe is getting better), I can see a good puddle, the joint get's filled, and my weld pattern looks similar to many that I've seen on here and in books. If cutting a section to examine isn't the correct way, and an X-ray is out of the question ($$$), what's the proper way to check it? In the past, I've done the simple "bend it and see what breaks first" test and I've passed. Maybe I'm reading too much into it...I guess a simpler question would be "Even though Zap's method proved to be incorrect according to Lincoln and many others, does the cross section of his weld show that it's an effective and strong weld?" Also, if that was a weld on heavy machinery or something similar, would you expect his weld to last or would you expect it to fail?
Reply:hi, i would like to say that just because the machine is set at 300 amps does not mean that is what it is. All  machines are different and feel different. amp setting is just a starting point. Experience is one thing you cannot get from any book. When  a REAL WELDER welds something it doesn't matter if it is gonna hold up a 8"X10" picture or 100 tons. HE WELDS THE SAME WAY. I don't care what they write in books, heck some of the old welders i work with could't read anyway but would put all my trust in their welds. Some stuff you can't get in books. It is somewhere to start.
Reply:Originally Posted by Zaps an IdiotOK,.... I get one shot at this, and I'll be banned, but here we go......THIS, Zap, IS the ****ing problem we all have with you. You go spewing bad information and admittedly are completely ignorant of the right procedure for doing things.You have stated many times, that you have no education in this industry, and even admitted in this very thread that you have never read the welder's "Bible", and do not intend to.You are so full of yourself that you state these things as fact, but say you dont know metalurgy, correct procedures, and refuse to research the proper methods.YOU admit that you are an idiot. You obviously think so highly of your ineptness and ignorance, that you dont even realize the verbal diarrhea that flows so freely from your mouth.If Bob backs you up on being a ****ing ignorant fool,..... I will be completely stunned. He needs to admit the huge mistake he made giving you the site leader title.Dude,..... you wouldn't make a apprentice, not from lack of ability, but purely for your attitude, and unwillingness to accept long established standards. You are dangerous, and so much a fool you cant even see it.Consider this a personal attack, and an expression of the feelings of many, many of your internet peers. You aren't qualified to weld my scrap together.Can you guys tell I'm goddamn ****ing pissed off?
Reply:As far as my job in the construction industry goes procedure is not take it or leave it. You must follow the prescribed procedure even if you think its stupid and think it is not needed to do thigns that way. When a guy welds a jump column or a moment you need to know that they followed the pre and post heat procedure and ran the wire within the paremiters of the wire. Like I said everyone has their own 'way" of welding but there are certain things that just are how everyone should do it. If a guy tells me he is welding 1/8 7018 flat at 137 I have no problem but if he tells me he is welding it at 85 or 165 I have a HUGE issue with that. I carry a card with me every day that has pre heat temps for various thicknesses, FACW volts, amps, and wfs for the common wires we use and has stick amps for the various sizes we use...not because I don't know but so I can be darn SURE I am doing things according to AWS. I am not the fastest welder on any job BUT when I walk away from a joint/weld its done and ready to be inspected and will pass. Noone will have to go back and fix my work. So in the long run it may take me twice as long as someone else to finish something but I have no failures at the end of the day whereas the fast guys and superstars have multiple things fail and someone has to go back and hand out welder welfare.As to the original poster...you are going to to what you think is best. I wish you the best of luck and hope my posts have at least helped you a bit.'Mike
Reply:*****Last edited by Zaps an Idiot; 06-21-2008 at 08:31 PM.
Reply:Good job on the edit, that wasn't cool.Tim Beeker.
Reply:I would strongly advise getting the welding specs from the company these plans came from , I work on heavy equipment every day and 1 to 3 inch material is the norm , when caterpiler sends out a renforment part to be welded on a D-10 or what ever they send the welding specs , if they dont have them I call cat and they are very supprtive , most companys are , what you are building is pretty substantial so it would not be write for me to advise  you what to weld it with , I would be happy to give you some help but for your own good find out what the engineer has to say.
Reply:Must be a really cheap company to supply him with such small drawingsEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:well it would not not be the first  but depending on what is for if its not done write it could get someone hurt or worse
Reply:Originally Posted by boilermakerwell it would not not be the first  but depending on what is for if its not done write it could get someone hurt or worse
Reply:Originally Posted by blackdoggyLincoln Electric IS the BIG DOG and every one else just follows I mean just look at there product catalog compared to Miller, Lincoln has 171 pages where as Miller only has 98 pages. But we won't dig into the Red Vs. Blue debate here. I personally have a copy of the Lincoln Bible and use it as a reference almost daily even though it was printed in the 70's.
Reply:Originally Posted by ironman715As far as my job in the construction industry goes procedure is not take it or leave it. You must follow the prescribed procedure even if you think its stupid and think it is not needed to do thigns that way. When a guy welds a jump column or a moment you need to know that they followed the pre and post heat procedure and ran the wire within the paremiters of the wire. Like I said everyone has their own 'way" of welding but there are certain things that just are how everyone should do it. If a guy tells me he is welding 1/8 7018 flat at 137 I have no problem but if he tells me he is welding it at 85 or 165 I have a HUGE issue with that. I carry a card with me every day that has pre heat temps for various thicknesses, FACW volts, amps, and wfs for the common wires we use and has stick amps for the various sizes we use...not because I don't know but so I can be darn SURE I am doing things according to AWS. I am not the fastest welder on any job BUT when I walk away from a joint/weld its done and ready to be inspected and will pass. Noone will have to go back and fix my work. So in the long run it may take me twice as long as someone else to finish something but I have no failures at the end of the day whereas the fast guys and superstars have multiple things fail and someone has to go back and hand out welder welfare.As to the original poster...you are going to to what you think is best. I wish you the best of luck and hope my posts have at least helped you a bit.'Mike
Reply:I HAVE welded 3/4" gussets to 1.5" plate using .045 wire.  I used 21 volts, 210 to 225 ipm making multiple passes.  These welds were not pretty but did pass a visiual AWS inspection.I also tried the same welds with 3/16" 7018 250 amps (ranger 250 turned all the way up), 3 passes but same results.  Not pretty, did pass aws visiual inspection.   There seemed to be too much turbulance in the puddle.  Slag was hard to get off.  Maybe just out of my league.A WPS is needed for this job if you can get it.Can YOU read the print?  I tried to blow it up, but it was to blurry.DavidLast edited by David R; 06-21-2008 at 09:20 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Too much heat will change the composition of the wire you are depositing. To many amps will negate any loy hy properties in a wire. Too much preheat will adversely effect the composition of the base metal and make the welding process that much more difficult because there is so much heat ALREADY in the base metal also overheating can cause things to cool in a way not intended or facotred in by the engineer who designed the joint to be welded. I say being a welder is easy...just follow the procedure the rest takes care of itself...I oversimplify but you cats know what I mean.'Mike
Reply:So even though everyone agrees it was done incorrectly, based on the picture that Zap posted is it a good strong weld or no? Would it hold the plates together or would it fail?
Reply:Originally Posted by 46/71 HybridSo even though everyone agrees it was done incorrectly, based on the picture that Zap posted is it a good strong weld or no? Would it hold the plates together or would it fail?