Just getting started...need some advice.

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Hello all. First I just want to comment on what an excellent community this is. There are a lot  of great resources here and helpful members. I am extremely new to this art so I apologize if I do get some terminology right. I am in the market to purchase a mig machine and I have determined I need to stay with a 110v machine. Any advice on what a decent machine is? I am hoping to stay in the range of $200-$450. Some of my upcoming projects include:  electric go-karts (chassis from scratch), electric vehicle conversion (battery mounts, motor mounts...etc, and robotics. I need something that is going to get these jobs done. I have been looking on ebay, home depot, lowes....etc., and I see a lot of lincoln electric weldpaks (140, 180,...etc). To my understanding, however, the 140s have power switches instead of a fully variable knob type selector. I think I will need to have a knob to have better adjustment since I might be working with various materials. Any suggestions about a machine that fits the bill? Thanks so much.
Reply:I have and use the Lincoln SP135's and love them. For light duty projects they are great. I taught my self to weld on an SP125 10 years ago.The variable voltage feature helps to fine tune your welding, especially as you're starting out and need help finding that "sweet spot" where you are comfortable. Where are you located? I have a buddy that is selling an SP135.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:HI, welcome to the forum. Glad to have you with us.Take the time to read the threads listed in the sticky at the top of this section on 110v migs. It will cover most of the reasons why 110v migs are generally poor choices for most beginners. The basic reason is they are under powered for what most try and do with them. If all you plan on doing is sheet metal for an auto restoration or up to 1/8" they are ok but generally not for much else. You speek of various materials. Most of these small machines do plain steel and maybe Stainless, but even though they say alum, you are very limited in what they will weld in alum. You need to set the machine at max and even then you get maybe 1/16-3/32 alum. Go to a 220v machine and you will be much better off.The Lincoln's, Millers and Hobarts are all nice machines. Parts are readily available. Infinite heat is nice but I don't find it that much of a requirement in the small 110v machines. You most likely want to get a machine that can use gas for mig as opposed to a Fluxcore machine. You have more options with gas which includes using the fluxcore wire if you want.Do yourself a favor and look into taking a nite class at a CC or votech school. They money spent will be well worth it. I'd even suggest doing this before buying a machine. If they have a small 110v and a 220v machine see if the instructor will show you the difference that the extra power will make. You can waste alot of time trying to teach yourself or just spend a little bit of time and learn the right way to start. They cost of the materials and electric more than offsets the cost of most classes. Battery mounts, motor mounts and chassis work all require good welding skills. The class will get you those skills with a minimum of wasted energy and make you a better welder than you will most likely become on your own in 4X the amount of time or more.I can not suggest strongly enough that you buy enough machine to start with. You can make welds with those 110v machines that look nice but have very little strength as the weld just sits on the surface. I will almost guarantee that you will find that you need to get a larger machine to do what you have in mind.Good luck. When you get a machine be sure and post some picts of your welds and we will make some suggestions.
Reply:While you make some good points, DSW, you obviously didn't comprehend rpmchaos's post.He has determined that a 110v machine is what he has to get, maybe due to power requirements, portability, whatever. 220v ain't in the picture.Also, for the price range he is looking at there is no decent 220 machine to be had.I will strongly disagree with you on the the fact that you say 110v Migs are poor choices for beginners. They are plenty capable of doing the projects that rpm listed and are a great starting point, especially in his price range. Will he want to upgrade in the future? Maybe, maybe not. Most likely he will as his talent and projects gain in spectrum but I think that too many people have given the 110v Migs a bad wrap and are too quick to claim that they are useless. I still have 2 of the Lincoln 110v Migs as well as 2 PowerMig 210's. They are both great machines and both have plenty of capabilities, each with their own strongpoints....and as far as self teaching goes, some of the best weldors I've ever known have been self-taught. I know that you went to a Voc school and that's great but is it for everyone? I don't think it is. Either choice is a great way to learn but not all of the programs and the instructors are teaching as well as the ones that you may have had.I think that if you are going to limit yourself with a 110v Mig why would you limit yourself even farther with a tap control? Yes, I said limit. The 110v Migs do have their limitations...I'm not stating that these machines will weld structural I-beams but IMO, the 110v Migs can help the beginner learn better puddle control and concentrate on hand technique rather than just having a machine that hey can crank up and bury wire with. Having welded with both styles, the variable voltage makes for a much more tunable machine and, in my experience, yields a much better weld.Should any beginner start on projects that are of major importance to safety or otherwise, of course not. You start by welding scrap and "ornamental" projects...weld some coupons and cut them apart to see what is going on....beat them with a hammer to see if they break, etc...You learn joint preparation and type and so on.As I said before, you made some great points but why is everyone so against the 110v Migs?http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:ZTFab guess I looked at it in a slightly different way. He states that he is new and admits that he may not be good at explaining what he wants. I find many new people lack the understanding to ask the questions that they really need answered and those of us that do undersatnd need to help and fill in the blacks so that they can make a good informed decision. How can you ask the question if you don't know the question to ask?I'm not disagreeing with any of the points you made to a certain degree. My thoughts are this. Does the OP have the basic info to decide whether a 110v machine meets his need? Give him a group of threads to look at and make an informed decision, other than the " I have a 110v outlet so therefore I need a 110v machine", which is what I generally find is the answer when you ask why 110v?  He can also decide for himself if his budget really covers what is needed. He can then decide if spending the extra money is worth the extra power. Pass along what I learned from getting a 110v machine to start. Can you learn on your own, definitely yes. I did. However I'd be a much better welder today if I had taken a class 15 years ago rather than 3 years ago. The basic class advanced all my welding skills not just those on the method I was taking.I hate to see people "waste" money on equipment that will not do what they want. Part comes from my experience with the 110v machine I had and part comes from years of helping to teach scuba. We frequently get divers that have spent big bucks on equipment that does not fulfill the requirements that they need to do what they want properly. I hate to tell someone that you need to dump this, this and this and go buy new stuff that does what you want when their stuff is brand new and very expensive. I find very few in retail that can truely explain why you buy one machine over another in the small migs. How many can explain what are the true differences in duty cycle and how they apply in the real world, since duty cycle has signifigant effect on how these small machines perform.Yeah if you go to the LWS and start talking generator welders, tigs or heavy migs you may get decent answers, but seldom on small migs. Box stores and online sales places seldom care what you buy as long as they get a sale, so cheap sells whether if will do what they need or not. I use "waste" in quotes above as if you buy it twice it will cost you more than just biting the bullet and getting the right equipment from the start.As far as whether the 110v machine will do chassis work, electric vehicle work and so on I will bow to your expertise in the field of motor work fab. ( I did miss the electric part of go-karts) I've seen the stuff you go and can only hope to get 1/2 as good as you, but I don't weld day in day out either. But lets ask if YOU would use one to do fab work on say battery mounts for an electric car where the battery may weigh several hundred pounds, or motor mounts for a motor for a car that will take a good bit of weight and torque? I'm guessing that you would choose to use a 220v machine and your excellent skill level would overcome the shortcomings of the 110v machine if you chose to use one.As to why everyone is against the 110v migs I guess it comes down to the fact that many hobbiest's get these machines and feel that they are perfectly good for almost everything. They lack the knoledge to realise that the machine is being used past its limits. A good example is the thread on the small shop press thats been up lately. You look at the 1110v welds on 3/4" material and honestly tell me they are good solid welds. Not acceptable for the purpose planned but that if you looked at just the joint itself you would accept it. I doubt it. Not really the OP's fault in that post he lacks the knoledge to undersatnd why the welds are not as good as he thinks. The 'Look" nice enough so they should be ok. You do structral work and fab suspension if I remember, would you use a 110v mig to build your work? Many do and feel that the metal stays together so it's good enough. use the tool to do what it is designed for. Don't use it beyond its limits because A) you don't know better (I'll accept igronance) or B) you are too cheap to spend the money necessary to get the machine thats required (unacceptable to me), or don't understand why you need to spend the extra money (ok maybe). I find that most 110v mig users fall into both these catagories to a certain degree.Last edited by DSW; 06-26-2008 at 11:42 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWZTFab guess I looked at it in a slightly different way.
Reply:No feathers ruffled at all. Like I said I come from a slightly different backgound with sales expeience thats not the usuall "sell the first thing you can to the person and when they want something differnt they'll come back and spend more. Don't worry if it fits their needs or not.". Those retailers are the ones that get me miffed. You see more and more now days and many don't even understand the products that they sell. Cheep, cheep, cheep is all many buyers want to hear unless someone takes the time to explain why thats not the best way. I find the same thing in construction. I bid the job with ALL the costs. Not just those the customer pointed out. I would rather loose the customer up front than keep banging them for additional that were not included. Sometimes its hard for the customer to remember WHY your price was higher even though it was explained. Had a quote last week. In theory it was for drywall in an attic. In reality the customer wanted to finish off the space. Needed studs, insulation, electric, drywall, paint, trim, floor work ducts and so on. I won't just grab the job then say "Oh you wanted me to paint too? Here's what that will cost. Oh you wanted trim too? Here's what that will cost. Oh yeah I noticed that there are no outlets, you want me to add them now that the walls are up?"Sorry to have drifted a bit off topic.
Reply:ZTFab, DSW, you both make some excellent points, which is exactly why I am glad I joined this forum. The reason I said I decided I would have to go with 110, is because I don't have the 220 readily available. I could definitely get a solid 220 outlet setup, I just want to make sure I am doing the right thing. I don't want to go ahead with the 220 if it really is not for me. DSW, I am glad you mentioned that some manufacturers say they can do alum when it is really a stretch for the machine. As for taking classes, I am definitely going to take classes. I have been trying to find classes that don't conflict with work/school. I probably will not be able to take them for about 6 months. I am usually pretty good at learning things on my own, but at the same time, I want to learn how to do this correctly. ZTFab, I am just south-east of Los Angeles County. I guess I will look a little further into the possibility of setting up 220 at home. I guess what it comes down to is what welders are pretty good in my price range? Based on the projects I specified, is there a current range I should be looking for? I did check out those threads about 110, but they talk about the capabilities in terms of material and thickness, but as a complete beginner, I really have no idea what material and thickness I should expect to use for different projects. Thanks again folks.
Reply:thisis a frequent question/debate on this forum. in an ideal world, we'd all  have the resources to start on a 208v machine. in practical terms taint so. there are limits to the 110v but they are a great start. lincoln models with a "c" are continuos heat, "t" is 4 finite taps.id recommend get the 110v, start to weld, gert fotos on this site, and in time you may know its time to get a 208. enjoy is the main thing.......
Reply:I've always been partial to the smaller Hobart Handlers.  Also the Miller Cricket if you can find one is an excellent buy.  If you want a new welder I think you can still look at Hobart and Lincoln in your price range.  The first Mig welder I ever picked up was Dad's Hobart Handler running on 110.  After that I did a lot of welding on a Miller Cricket, also 110 (FCAW setup).  Compared to say a Mllermatic 250 they're not as nice.  These days I do a lot of work on a Harbor Freight Dual Mig 151 on 220.  FCAW, it's set up to be beat up around the great outdoors, but I actually like it pretty well.  $10 welder, $300 helmet.  If you have your own house or garage, your electic panel normally has 220 wired into it for electric ranges, some heat pumps, and almost all washers and dryers.  Having an electrician come out and install an outlet in my neck of the woods runs about 70 bucks if you don't need a new breaker panel.  I'm partial to 220v welders - I think most of them run smoother and objectively a welder that can run on both will always run with a longer duty cycle on 220.  It could potentially cost you a LOT more than it cost me though so make sure you get a good estimate.  Don't put too much emphasis on what welder you pick - you're not choosing your wife here.  Miller, Hobart and Lincoln are mostly a matter of personal preference.  I've always been a Miller and Hobart fan.  Esab and ThermalArc are also pretty respectable too.  Even some Clarke machines are pretty good.  Steer clear of the cheapo welders when you're new though.   I know I talk about how great my harbor freight welder is but I'm not sure how consistent their quality really is, and I know that the two I've owned were pretty sensitive as far as adjustments were concerned, so definitely not suited for beginners.Pick one among any of those names and you'll have a decent welder to learn with and make small repairs with.  That's pretty much a promise.  If you can find a used machine you might be able to get yourself into a higher line machine.Material thicknesses - let me take a stab at some general requirements assuming some kind of mild steel:1) Ornaments and decorations - 20-28 gauge 2) Pipes and fences - 1/16" to 3/32" thick  You may occasionally see thicker stock used.  A 110 welder is only good for repair in a situation like this, NOT construction as the duty cycles are too low at the amperages required.3) Automotive body - 22-28 gauge  Sometimes a bit meatierThose are pretty much what I'd stick to as a beginning welder.  You might consider repairing small things for friends or around the house.  Repairs to things  like non-critical pieces on exercise equipment, gate hinges, decorative sign posts are all good first projects and very well suited to your welder.  You might even consider welding up your own welding table for projects.  Lastly, I would buy a book or two to keep around.  Richard Finch is a welder, fabricator and educator who has written some fantastic books about welding with some good project ideas in some of them.  The Welder's Handbook is one of my favorite books on the subject.
Reply:In your price range this would most likely be the most powerful unit I could find on a quick 5min search.http://www.toolking.com/hobartwelders_500501b.aspxThe new HH187's run close to $650 if I remember from one of the previous pages on this site. I've never used these guys but many have reported good dealings with them. As with anything you give up some things to get others.Most of the 180 amp machines seem to run in this $650-700 range from lincoln, miller and hobart. These are all 220v machines. Hope this helps you to get an idea what they run.As far as material thickness, I'm not completely sure. The go-kart stuff I would think would run less than 3/16 probably 1/16" to 1/8". As far as the electric conversions I'd need a bit more info but I would tend to think of heavy weights posibly, so say 3/16"-5/16"+. Robotics I have no idea.If you are like most of us after you start to weld you will find all sorts of new extra projects that will change what you will want to weld. I got my first mig (110v) to do sheetmetal work on my old Plymouth and Dodge. The Dodge is long gone and the Plymouth is still waiting for me to get to it, but I've done only a little bit of sheetmetal work on cars and trucks. Shop fixtures, my snow plow, scafolding, backhoe buckets, dumptruck body repairs, bumpers, trailer repairs, jigs, mower repairs, brackets for around the shop, ladder racks for 3 trucks now, step bars and a rack for the new truck, various pieces of dive gear, are all projects that I never would have thought about when I started. The list goes on, as said once you have a machine friends find projects that you can help out with also.