Purchasing my first welder... Help, please.

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If you read my intro, I am just getting into welding and I need a welder. End of September I start a night course, but I would like to get somewhat prepared so I can practise at home and get more experience in welding. I am getting into welding, right now, specifically for working with automobiles, but I want to purchase a welder that can be used for heavier work, if ever needed. Something that can weld up to 1/2", if that is possible, on the budget that I have set for a first welder. (Up to $1200.00 Cdn before tax.) I would like a welder that can do Mild Steel, Aluminum, Stainless and Iron, but I don't know yet if Iron is possible. (Still a newb.) I know I could go out and get a Hobby Weld, or something small like that for around $300 or less, but I would like a Welder that will last me a long time. I would rather put out a bit more for something that will last me a long time, but to me, just starting out $1500 and up still seems a little steep.Looking at Home Depot online, I found these two welders. The 175 HD says on the box that it can weld up to 1/2" thick Mild Steel. Now, from experience, this would tell me that under perfect conditions it will weld 1/2" steel and chances are task the welder to the limits and not get a perfect weld... and even though I wouldn't be welding 1/2" that often, will make more work than necessary when I do.Lincoln Electric _ Weld Pak 175 HD ($700.00)WELD-PAK™ 175 HD - $700" target="_blank">http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?D=931344&Ntt=931344&catalo  gId=10051&langId=-15&storeId=10051&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntx=mode+  matchall&recN=121102&N=0&Ntk=P_PartNumberThis second welder is both Stick and Tig, I like this idea as it has a Tig function which can make some nice accurate welds and the price will fit in my budget. Is it alright to buy a machine that will do both Stick and Tig? To me when buying something that doesn't specialize in one area means it will do "alright" in both, not "excellent" in both.Lincoln Electric V160-S Stick/Tig Welder ($1200.00)Invertec V160-S Stick/TIG Welder - $1200" target="_blank">http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?D=900065&Ntt=900065&catalo  gId=10051&langId=-15&storeId=10051&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntx=mode+  matchall&recN=121102&N=0&Ntk=P_PartNumberFeel free to give me suggestions in what I should do. This is just the beginning of my research and I have a month to figure out what I should buy and I know it seems like I am jumping the gun a little but, I would like to be prepared.Looking forward to hearing back.-BigCarl.
Reply:What's up Carl, Welcome to the forum.With the range of materials you want to eventually weld, The second welder The Lincoln Invertec would be my choice. But that units output is DC only, so that means no Aluminum. You could weld your steel and stainless and cast iron, but no Aluminum.Do not worry about the Stick/TIG thing. TIG welders and Stick welders both create a CC(constant current) output as opposed to a MIG welder that is CV (Constant Voltage) So that means they can do both TIG and Stick.There is no compromise getting both features, Its just the nature of the machine. And thats nice because in one machine you have like you said, nice accurate welds, on a variety of materials. But you also have a Stick welder that you can use for a breezy day in the driveway working on a trailer.I hope this helps, don't rush it. Also, look for used welders as well, There are alot out there, and we can help you sort through the B.S.Have fun....Yup
Reply:Its good to know that there isn't a compromise in the two and I am considering the second machine, if I cannot find something in a used or refurbished machine. Is there a machine that is AC/DC and will do all materials up to 1/2" in the $1200 price range (new)? Or is there an older/used machine that you would recommend I look for that would do everything for around the $1200 price?
Reply:Originally Posted by BigCarlIts good to know that there isn't a compromise in the two and I am considering the second machine, if I cannot find something in a used or refurbished machine. Is there a machine that is AC/DC and will do all materials up to 1/2" in the $1200 price range (new)? Or is there an older/used machine that you would recommend I look for that would do everything for around the $1200 price?
Reply:Originally Posted by BigCarlI know its a pretty vague question and I am more than sure that the are a lot of different machines out there. But, I am having problems where most of the machines I can find only do 1/2 of the stuff I will want one for.Guess its going to take a lot more looking to end this frustrating period.
Reply:Every dc stick welder I have ever seen is easily set up for running scratch start tig. Contrary to popular belief ac is not required to weld aluminum (see Lincoln's "Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding"). Half inch aluminum pushes the limits on a 400 amp ac tig, but switching to dc cuts the power requirement by about 50% and makes it a breeze.Cast iron can be welded using SMAW, GMAW or GTAW. It can also be brazed using O/A or GTAW. Certain types of castings work better with some processes and not so well with others. Brazing is the cheapest and the others go from ouch to oh my god in terms of expense.A good starter machine that will easily weld 1/2" with sticks would be the old Lincoln AC/DC tombstone. And it will do it day in and day out all day long just about forever. A Miller Dialarc 250 will do the same provided you have the power to handle it and space to park it, and used ones can be found fairly cheaply. Much less than 1200 bucks. That translates to cash for other goodies you don't know you need yet.Best advice is don't worry about buying a machine right now. Take your class. Try out the different processes and different machines they have available, and then decide what you need or want based on a little practical experience. The thing is that the more processes you want out of a single machine the more expensive they get.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:"Contrary to popular belief ac is not required to weld aluminum (see Lincoln's 'Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding')". - Jolly Rogeryour statement was ..really surprising.  newbie interested in welding aluminum here.  i do not have a copy of lincoln's handbook.  any more details would be appreciated (links, pdf's, etc...)
Reply:https://ssl.lincolnelectric.com/linc...asp?prodnum=PHWith 750 hardbound pages, it's hardly a 'handbook.'  More like a bible.WeldingWeb forum--now more sophomoric banter than anything else!
Reply:Linc mig 175 is hard pushed to weld much over 1/4 to 5/16, though with good fit up and multi passes thicker can be welded.With mig you will want/need gas, so need to figgure in the cost of gas bottle too.A 230 amp AC buzz box and a 175 amp mig could get you going and do most stuff. Though the small migs don't do aluminium well, you would need to add a spool gun and extra bottle for argon to go there.My thought would be first pick up a basic 230 amp AC stick welder, these can be had cheep. this will get you going and offer you something to practice with.Then get a 230 volt mig, this you will need for auto body work. Get gas with it you will need/want that.Then down the road if you are getting into aluminium stainless or other specialty stuff invest in a good tig. It will replace the stick welder and you can likely sell that for near what you paid.Good point on waiting to buy, but for the price of a 240v AC stick welder it is worth while to get at least a used one just for practice. The for mig you cant go wrong with a brand name 240 volt unit but you will want to look at units over 200 amps if you plan to weld material over 1/4 to 5/16 inch. More amps yet if you plan to weld aluminium. There are migs (pulse on pulse and beter wave form control) that do well for aluminium, but cost a lot more.
Reply:Since you're new, remember THIS: ALL manual welding is about puddle control. Your entire universe is 1" in diameter. No matter O/A, stick, mig or TIG. Don't be afraid of the arc, get 'up close and personal'. My face plate is less than 12" from my welds. This may require reading glasses or a 'cheater' in your helmet. 9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:Carl, Timberwolf has a very good point. i run several machines, all basically smaller units ( only 40A input power.) My Miller 175 mig will do 1/4" steel and not complain much. But move up to 5/16, you are getting to the end of the road for single pass. With good preheat, you can do 2 pass on 1/2". As you go thicker, the weld speeds slow down. As for aluminum, that is all relative to the overall size of the aluminum. I have a spoolgun for my 175, and it will do up to 1/4" but you have to get set up very well, and cold starts are an issue. I have to preheat the area where I start my welds.My tig is an invertec 205. I feel the total amps output with this machine for stick welding would do 1/2" with no problem. In tig mode, you could multi-pass steel up to 1/2". But aluminum?? 1/4" is the practical limit. If you had just tabs to weld, or say an aluminum casting that you had to weld a spot on, it could do it up to 1/2" with preheat, and multi-pass. Aluminum on DC would probably get very good penetration if you can get it figured out. For what it's worth, the invertec with water cooled torch, homemade cooler has about $3000 invested into it. Big aluminum takes big power unfortunately.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Good to know I am finding the same thing. With my Linc PT 185 it's about the same deal it'l drive rod in 3/8 ,might do 1/2 inch steel haven't tried. But as for 1/4 aluminium in TIG mode it is petal to the metal  just to get enough heat in and with air cooled torch I can only weld a few inches befor my torch hand is burning.I think I'm going to have to look at a watercooled set up. Not sure what to do for that, don't want to fork out the cash for the Lincoln water cooler. Either just hook up a garden hose, or maybe I can adapt the water cooler from my old Lind plasma welder, do use that unit often anyways.Rojodiablo, what have you set up for water cooler?
Reply:On the dc tig  welding of aluminum. I mentioned the book because I haven't done it in several years and can't remember the setup on polarity. For thin stuff you go one direction and after you reach a certain thickness you have to reverse the polarity to keep from blowing up the tungsten. One of my old bosses had me trying to run fillet welds on 1/2" aluminum plate and it wasn't going well at all even with the 400 amp machine maxed out. When I got home I dragged out my copy and proceeded to read up on tig welding aluminum just to see if I could find anything that might help. Up until then I was under the impression ac had to be used. It is most desired due to the self-cleaning action of the arc that dc doesn't have. With dc you get it clean and then get it done as aluminum begins to oxidize immediately after it is cleaned. What I had struggled with for 10 hours the day before was accomplished in under 2 the next day.If you are serious about learning to weld get a copy of that book and read it. It is surprisingly cheap and is the best general reference book I have ever seen on the subject. It is written to be easily understood by almost anyone who picks it up. I started using it when I was about 10 or so and had no problems understanding it. It doesn't get deeply in depth on any one process, but gives you the sources for more in depth study should you desire more information.Good luck with the schooling and enjoy learning the skill. Timberwolf I would think the Linde cooler should work just fine. I have one off of an old synchrowave rigged up for use with my XMT304. They are pretty simple just a reservoir, cooling coil much like the heater core out of a car, and a small pump. Mine has a bronze and stainless pump and the motor also runs a fan that blows through the coil. It's an industrial unit and is pretty heavy duty. If you had a large enough reservoir you might not need the coil and you might be able to use an evaporative cooler water pump for your pump. You can buy a truckload of them for what a replacement for this thing costs. I don't recall exactly (and can't find the book on my torch, lol) what the pressure on the system is but it doesn't take much.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Originally Posted by TimberwolfGood to know I am finding the same thing. With my Linc PT 185 it's about the same deal it'l drive rod in 3/8 ,might do 1/2 inch steel haven't tried. But as for 1/4 aluminium in TIG mode it is petal to the metal  just to get enough heat in and with air cooled torch I can only weld a few inches befor my torch hand is burning.I think I'm going to have to look at a watercooled set up. Not sure what to do for that, don't want to fork out the cash for the Lincoln water cooler. Either just hook up a garden hose, or maybe I can adapt the water cooler from my old Lind plasma welder, do use that unit often anyways.Rojodiablo, what have you set up for water cooler?
Reply:Thank you for all the info you guys have thrown into my thread.I have priced the book and found it to be 25.00 from Lincoln. That is going to be purchased immediately. I am looking to spend around 1200 for my first welder and am currently checking the newspaper/ebay/craigslist for a used welder. I probably won't purchase one for a month or two after I start the course. I can see there is a lot of information on this board and I am looking forward to learning here just as much as I am looking to learn from the course.