kinda a safety question

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hey, I just purchased an enclosed trailer for my work.  When I bought it one side of the trailer's tongue had a "kink" in it from the trailer being jack-knifed by the previous owner.  Overall it is pretty minor, but I would like to weld a plate over it just to hide it a little.  So my question is, being a newbie with a HH 187, is there any way I can actually make the tongue "less strong" or safe by doing this?    I just plan on just welding a 1/8" or so plate over the dent.   I just want it to look a little better, but I am a little concerned about actually doing more harm then good.   If I had the funds (I don't) I would bring it in and have it cut out and replaced, Here is a pic, Brew Attached Images
Reply:Done 'wrong', welding a plate could introduce HAZ weakness or stress concentrations that would be weak or failure-initiation areas.Right now, the kink is already a distorted area and hence a weak point.  It's been pre-buckled, so would tend to continue to bend/buckle at the kink.I'd say cut-n-replace the damaged section.  Scarf joint and fish plates would make it better than new.Just slapping on some 1/8 inch plate would be iffy.What thickness is the existing channel?  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I agree with Moonrise that, being a newby, you could actually weaken the channel with an incorrectly applied weld.I know this is a welding forum, but i just had to throw this in there....Why not consider taking two 3/8" thick plates, drill through plates and channel, and bolt the gussets inside and outside the channel?  Sometimes simplest is easiest.Regards, KbnitI r 2 a perfessional
Reply:It is square tubing if that makes a difference, I believe it is about 1/8" or 3/16" thick walls.  I don't think I could just bolt on a couple plates to reinforce it.   I am not too worried about strength right now, but was if I welded on it.  Thanks for the ideas so far. Brew
Reply:Duh on me, yeah, that makes a difference.  Couldn't tell for sure, but from the picture I thought it might be C channel.  Bolt on gussetsI r 2 a perfessional
Reply:For certain loads that the trailer tongue has to resist, that kink will reduce the strength by nearly 1/2.I thought it was C-channel too.Although the rectangular tube has some pluses as a structural member (usually stiffer and stronger for a given size/weight compared to an 'open' shape like C-channel), the repair could be easier with C-channel than the tube.Cut and replace or repair the damaged section.  It's really not safe any more.  It could last for a long while, or it could crumple suddenly with a loaded trailer as you are going down the road and hit a bump while on a slight turn (load condition imposing multiple vectors of force to cause a buckling of the tube).That's not a 'little' trailer, is it?  Granted, it's not a 'heavy' trailer (like for a track hoe or dozer, etc), but it's not a 1000-2000 single axle trailer.By the time you box out and form/weld reinforcements onto that kinked section, you're probably close to the time/money/effort to replace that tube section.  And it will look so much nicer and match the other side tube (visually and structurally).  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:The last time I saw what you describe with the bolted fishplates on a trailer tongue kbnit (admittedly a much larger trailer it cost them 3000 dollars for me to fix it. That didn't include all of the fines involved because it broke blocking the street. The state cop was laughing just as hard as I was when he saw itMy advice if the tube isn't bent more than an inch or two out of line is to leave it alone. From the picture it appears to be more of a dent than a bend, but that could be the angle. Keep an eye on it and if the bend increases or it begins to sag at the bend then you need to have it fixed. If you do not know what you are doing take it to a pro, and if you have to ask how to do it you are not ready for it. An improperly done repair on a trailer can be deadly to you or someone else. I will not cut, section and fishplate a trailer tongue. If it is bad enough to need that done I just cut the whole member off and replace it. It is actually faster which translates to cheaper.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jolly RogerMy advice if the tube isn't bent more than an inch or two out of line is to leave it alone. From the picture it appears to be more of a dent than a bend, but that could be the angle. Keep an eye on it and if the bend increases or it begins to sag at the bend then you need to have it fixed. If you do not know what you are doing take it to a pro, and if you have to ask how to do it you are not ready for it. An improperly done repair on a trailer can be deadly to you or someone else. I will not cut, section and fishplate a trailer tongue. If it is bad enough to need that done I just cut the whole member off and replace it. It is actually faster which translates to cheaper.
Reply:I agree with Jolly Roger 100%Only other alternative would seem to be removing the three outside pieces of damaged web, leaving the web on the backside if its still straight horizontally,  heat it to bend it back, then using it as a referance point to hold the whole assy. in alignment, go ahead and box it in, making sure to extend the plate a good ways beyond the damaged area.But, I'm not a professional welder, so this is just an opinion.
Reply:Originally Posted by tsbrewersit is pretty much just a dent.   That's why I was just thinking about putting a plate over the dent, just to hide it a little.  But I wasn't sure if my welding would weaken it too much.Brew
Reply:It is acceptable to cut and replace the damaged portion. The tubing you have is roughly 2.50 to 3.50 per foot so you are looking at a relatively cheap fix.Yes, like everyone here has said, a bad repair can be deadly but as someone pointed out, you are not welding a heavy duty hauler here. If you stay within the load limits of this trailer you should be fine. Be sure you have 100% penetration, test on scrap pieces first to ensure your skills are up to snuff. The tubing looks to be 1 1/2 X 3 or 4 and only .100 to .125 thick. That bend could be big trouble, on the other hand i getting 100% penetration should be a cinch.Bill
Reply:Originally Posted by Jolly RogerThe last time I saw what you describe with the bolted fishplates on a trailer tongue kbnit (admittedly a much larger trailer it cost them 3000 dollars for me to fix it. That didn't include all of the fines involved because it broke blocking the street. The state cop was laughing just as hard as I was when he saw itMy advice if the tube isn't bent more than an inch or two out of line is to leave it alone. From the picture it appears to be more of a dent than a bend, but that could be the angle. Keep an eye on it and if the bend increases or it begins to sag at the bend then you need to have it fixed. If you do not know what you are doing take it to a pro, and if you have to ask how to do it you are not ready for it. An improperly done repair on a trailer can be deadly to you or someone else. I will not cut, section and fishplate a trailer tongue. If it is bad enough to need that done I just cut the whole member off and replace it. It is actually faster which translates to cheaper.
Reply:Originally Posted by WHughesIt is acceptable to cut and replace the damaged portion. The tubing you have is roughly 2.50 to 3.50 per foot so you are looking at a relatively cheap fix.Yes, like everyone here has said, a bad repair can be deadly but as someone pointed out, you are not welding a heavy duty hauler here. If you stay within the load limits of this trailer you should be fine. Be sure you have 100% penetration, test on scrap pieces first to ensure your skills are up to snuff. The tubing looks to be 1 1/2 X 3 or 4 and only .100 to .125 thick. That bend could be big trouble, on the other hand i getting 100% penetration should be a cinch.Bill
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI agree with Jolly Roger 100%Only other alternative would seem to be removing the three outside pieces of damaged web, leaving the web on the backside if its still straight horizontally,  heat it to bend it back, then using it as a referance point to hold the whole assy. in alignment, go ahead and box it in, making sure to extend the plate a good ways beyond the damaged area.But, I'm not a professional welder, so this is just an opinion.
Reply:Originally Posted by WHughesIt is acceptable to cut and replace the damaged portion. The tubing you have is roughly 2.50 to 3.50 per foot so you are looking at a relatively cheap fix.Yes, like everyone here has said, a bad repair can be deadly but as someone pointed out, you are not welding a heavy duty hauler here. If you stay within the load limits of this trailer you should be fine. Be sure you have 100% penetration, test on scrap pieces first to ensure your skills are up to snuff. The tubing looks to be 1 1/2 X 3 or 4 and only .100 to .125 thick. That bend could be big trouble, on the other hand i getting 100% penetration should be a cinch.Bill
Reply:Oh boy. I don't know the trailer weight. I'm a hobby guy, and I don't want to kill anybody. In a perfect world...............etc. I'd put a jack between the rails and heat the bent piece until 'it held straight' (actually about 1/4" past, since it's going to 'pull in' when welded) and then piece a 1/4" along the vertical side, maybe 2 feet long. Skip weld along the length horizontally, top and bottom. NO vertical welds at the end of the patch. Yes, I know, whatever bent it won't be fixed with a flat plate. But in my world, I wouldn't kink it again. I'd also watch it CAREFULLY. No, I wouldn't do this for someone else. They bent it once, they'll do it again.Man, this is gonna hurt. Last edited by Craig in Denver; 08-27-2008 at 02:07 AM.9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:I would say Jolly Roger has a very valid point, and you concured with his position that it is a dent, and not a kink in the tube. If I could, I would avoid welding a patch onto the rail. IF I were to put a patch on a rail, I would look to Craig's post. When I do frame additions, I try to make the plating diamond shaped when possible, and keep vertical welds to a minimum, with  being the ideal situation. No, you can't get it every time, but you sure should try to . And finally, Dabar has made some very good points. Replacing is more sound than patching when possible/ practical. And I might cut out a section of a trailer tongue if it was practical to shorten it, but I would not add a welded section back into the mix, unless it was internally sleeved with true fitting ID tubing. At that point, you have justified the cost of a replacement tube, so just replace it.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Originally Posted by Craig in Denver[COLOR="Blue"]Oh boy.[/COLOR] I don't know the trailer weight.
Reply:It is a 7000 lb, 7x14 enclosed trailer.  Now we don't have to guess.  Brew
Reply:I am going to stay out of this one except to say if it were mine I would fix it just so I wouldn't have to look at it. Not going to explain how I would fix it but I can and not worry about it breaking. Actually this isn't too bad a problen. You should see some of the damage I've seen done to trailers used in the oilfield. Talk about wrecking an anvil.
Reply:Originally Posted by tsbrewersIt is a 7000 lb, 7x14 enclosed trailer.  Now we don't have to guess.  Brew
Reply:Originally Posted by OldtimerI am going to stay out of this one except to say if it were mine I would fix it just so I wouldn't have to look at it. Not going to explain how I would fix it but I can and not worry about it breaking. Actually this isn't too bad a problen. You should see some of the damage I've seen done to trailers used in the oilfield. Talk about wrecking an anvil.
Reply:Originally Posted by RojodiabloYeah, that's the empty weight. The REAL question is, how much overloaded will it be when it gets packed full??? And as I am so guilty of when hauling dirt, or busted concrete, I figure about a half ton extra is about what most people overload them......
Reply:If you paint over it, it will look 100% better. You can drag a line from the ball to the outside axles to see if it out of alignment. If it does break you loaded the trailer incorrectly. Or drove down rough roads to fast. Paint it call it good. Pay attention to tongue weight.
Reply:Ever see how guys extend a semi rig frame to put a dump bed on it?  They fishplate it.  Oil field guys extend frames like this all the timeBig ol' welds next to the bright safety sticker on the frame.  "Do not heat, or weld".There's perfection, then there's reality I guessI just got back from a local welder.  he said for $150 he would slit the tongue, straighten it out, re-weld it back together, and then weld a long plate over the tongue to reinforce it.   Does this sound like a plan?  too expensive? cheap? wrong idea?  He said he could also cut out the bad section and weld in a new piece, but the wires come out right at the kink so the wires would have to be cut then spliced back together.   When we looked at the wires, they have been spliced right there already with butt splices, so I would end up cutting, soldering, and then heat-shrinking them back together anyway.  Is this a better way to go, or worse?   The tongue does have a slight kink to it when we looked at it closer so I feel like I should get something done to it.
Reply:The only proper way to do the necessary repair is to do like it was suggested earlier........Cut it off and replace the damaged rail. If the tube is kinked you also need to check the tongue for squareness to the axles as was also already stated.In all reality, it will take more time to cut, splice, weld, grind etc...etc... than if you just did the right thing and replace it. I could do the actual repair in an hours time start to finish.I am what I am, Deal with it!If necessity is the Mother of Invention, I must be the Father of Desperation!
Reply:In my eyes it is clearly more than a dent. When you have damage to the radius portion of any tubing you have immediately lost half if not more, of the strength of that tubing.  Your plan to have it repaired by a cert-welder is a good one. And do it right the first time. Do the complete rail from front to back.
Reply:Originally Posted by dabar39BAD,BAD, BAD ADVICE......................................Never should a damaged trailer tongue be cut and spliced back together. Besides that, it is so much faster and easier to change out the damaged rail than to scab it back together. That's just flat out dangerous advice to be giving out.