Welding Symbol Clarification

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I am somewhat new to the Quality Control field.  We are having a difference of opinions between our top welders and our engineers as to the meaning of the welding symbol circled on the print attached.  The symbol is pointing to the inner side of a 90 degree angle that is to be welded to the part shown.  Our welders are stating that, in accordance with their blueprint welding class, the symbol is calling for a 1/8 inFillet Weld around the inner side of the beam angle to be attached.  Our engineers are stating that the All-Around symbol negates the Arrow Side location in that the All Around defines a complete loop around the entire part and the Arrow Side symbol now only defines the type of weld and not location.  If anyone has any documented proof as to the proper reading of this symbol please share your source of information.  It would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!  QualityControl
Reply:No visible attachement.  Please try again.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:ANSI/AWS A2.4-86 says the engineers are correct.
Reply:upload the file once again. aws a2.4-86 is an outdated text, has been updated several times since then. the 86 is means 1986. good possibility it is still the same though.
Reply:sorry about the attachment.  I actually forgot the attachment.  We are going through an ISO 9001 audit right now so my plate is pretty full.  Let me know if this attachment does not work. Attached FilesA31ST0008857modified3.zip (106.5 KB, 148 views)
Reply:I would say that the engineers are correct.
Reply:3rd times the charm .  I think your engineers are correct.  the link below takes you to a posterized listing of welding symbols.  You'd have to buy or locate a version of AWS A2.4 to find absolute proof. http://files.aws.org/technical/errata/A2.4errata.pdfBut, I found the same charts reproduced in  my copy of "Blueprint Reading for the Machine Trades", by Russ Shultz.  Pgs 360 - 363 cover welding symbols.  The weld all around symbol is a supplementary symbol.  "Supplementary symbols convey additional information relative to the extent of the welding, where welding is to be performed, and teh contour of the weld bead."I would interpret this to me than any supplementary symbols should supercede the basic welding described by the symbol.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Thanks for the info!  It was quite helpful.  We have conversed between Engineering and the Welders and it has become unanimous that the beam angle needs to be welded all the way around.  It just sucks that an ISO auditor found the error and not myself.  We will pray for a NO RECALL!! day and hopefully solve this issue with some simple Emergency Training of our welders.  Thanks Again...QualityControl.
Reply:Originally Posted by QualityControlI am somewhat new to the Quality Control field.  We are having a difference of opinions between our top welders and our engineers as to the meaning of the welding symbol circled on the print attached.  The symbol is pointing to the inner side of a 90 degree angle that is to be welded to the part shown.  Our welders are stating that, in accordance with their blueprint welding class, the symbol is calling for a 1/8 inFillet Weld around the inner side of the beam angle to be attached.  Our engineers are stating that the All-Around symbol negates the Arrow Side location in that the All Around defines a complete loop around the entire part and the Arrow Side symbol now only defines the type of weld and not location.  If anyone has any documented proof as to the proper reading of this symbol please share your source of information.  It would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!  QualityControl
Reply:The engineers are correct. That symbol refers to welded all the way around.
Reply:Avoiding confusion amongst the troops, while on the road to Six SigmaTo avoid situations like you describe, increase productivity,  productconformance ('quality'), and decrease scrap/rework/recalls:Engineering can (and should) on the shop drawings, depict exactlyhow the weld is to be made--pictorially, instead of using the customer specifiedsymbol callouts. The same applies to depictions of fit up, etc. Questions of drawing interpretation/depiction are resolved--always prior to release of shop drawings. Contacting the customer for clarificationor confirmation of the interpretation is highly appropriate--if the referencedspec's. leave doubt.[Anticipating and resolving 'gray areas' before they hit the shopfloor--stops Brush Fire Management (spending huge time and effortputting out brush fires on the shop floor.)]-specify the inspection method, qualified weld process, inspection toolingto be used, etc. ---in plain language and diagrams-issuing a separate print/process sheet for each and every operationthat is to be performed (as noted on the job routing card/operation sequence)helps immensely. Cleaning, painting, heat treat---i.e.---any and every stephas its own instruction sheet with a drawing (if applicable) relevant to only that step.-each operation/process sheet has an integral inspection report table,for entries to be made by the operator/inspector. This table requires entriesfor each and every dimension or process requirement to be inspected.-This is retained as a permanent record of who/what/when/where/why/how.-In the event of a problem/question/squabble--engineering is requiredto promptly and efficiently resolve it; issuing revised process sheets-deletingthe obsolete ones and recording in their files who/what/when/where/why/howhappened.-On new, uniquely different, or high dollar product orders:      -preliminary meetings are held by engineering to seek input fromaffected department, even prior to quoting      -before release of such product to the shop floor, meetings are held by engineering to review the specific product package, with affected departments-Tooling, fixture, etc. drawings incorporate auxiliary tooling checklists in thebody of the drawings, to assist and remind affected departments that they will needto have other bits and pieces available-in addition to the tool or fixture--in orderto make things happen. ("Forgetting" to have such things is expensive.)(Myself and a small cadre initiated the above in a large manufacturing aerospace/commercial job shop--35 years ago)Blackbird
Reply:Originally Posted by El_Lloydeoupload the file once again. aws a2.4-86 is an outdated text, has been updated several times since then. the 86 is means 1986. good possibility it is still the same though.
Reply:I have done the research.  Thanks for the wonderful advice.  No, I am not a welder of any sort.  Yes, I am very new to this job and was thrown into the fire when the two Q.C. individuals went on medical leave.  You can keep your opinions about my job performance to yourself.  I am quite educated and know how to go about procedures.  this was simply to ask seasoned individuals about the situation so that I may find a little more validation or perhaps have something brought to my attention that I may have overlooked.  No, I have not memorized every shop drawing in my first month and week of this job with little to no training in such BUT I do have 2 years of schooling from the U.S. Navy in reading schematics and blueprints for RADAR systems so it will be a bit of a transformation but I am sure I can handle it.  Thanks for your sincere conern.  Q.C.