Man vs Machine....your thoughts?

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Ok so its a bit of a take off of the Man vs. Food show, but I was hoping to get thoughts & insight on where you all see automation going into place and where manual individual welding will be needed and remain a mainstay in the workplace into the future?   Perhaps in individual sectors; manufacturing? construction? Repair? In short, what of the future of automation and what of the future of individual human welders?  Hopefully I am not too wordy, vast or inprecise with my question.Just wanted to get your thoughts as there is a ton of wisdom within these circles, thanks!-Beagle
Reply:Construction, repair and custom fabrication will always be the domain of the human manual welder.   There's no way for a robot to do that sort of work effectively.  Robotics will always have a place in manufacturing and will increse it's place in that market as the robots get better and the technology gets cheaper and within the grasp of smaller operations.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:[Good] welders jobs are safe in the long term.  The major issues of money, energy, and the "new"era of environmental consciousness will require even more piping systems and structures be designed and fabricated to attain those lofty goals, even if some are currently imaginary or only in the minds of the gray beards or kids still in school (tomorrow's engineers and tradesmen). Would rather join two metals via an electric welder than to beat them together though; progress is our friend.
Reply:I pretty much agree with DesertRider and Chris.  I don't think that the weldor will be going the way of the elevator operator anytime soon.  I think we will see more and more robotics employed in specialized, repetitive, or dangerous tasks.  In my lifetime, I don't envision super intelligent, versatile weldor robots capable of dealing with all the variables in custom fabrication, repair, or construction. Attached ImagesWork HARDER, not smarter! ------------------------ Miller Bobcat 250Millermatic 251Lincoln Precision TIG 185Hypertherm PM 600Hobart 135 HandlerOxweld 400 FlameMaster
Reply:Robots in production are already at the level of use they will be at.  The cost of time & money to engineer, machining & tooling, to get parts to fit up well enough that a robot can weld them is just a lost cause on a lot of parts.  Now things like frames at the plant I worked at, when one welder can fully weld one frame in 13 hours, and one robot with one operator can weld 3 in 10 hours, then the advantage is a no brainer.  When I was in meetings for moving & improving our cab line, my supervisor suggested getting a robot to do my job, I got a good laugh, and explained to him (I'd been on the new cab line since they introduced it) that none of the gussets or tubes had ever fit right since we started, I had been splitting the difference on tubes and filling the gaps, and eyeballing the gussets to fit the best they could but they were never in the same place twice.
Reply:My feeling is that the "robots" will be new age welding machines, probably a lot closer on the horzon than you might think.The machine will be handled by a human, but the process will be totally computerized.  Parameters will no longer be determined by the person using the equipment.  The equipment will have enough onboard computing power, combined with new and unheard of sensors, and feedback devices, that the person will be just pointing the gun at the joint.Improper travel speed will be compensated for to a great degree, and a "voice prompt" will do the rest.It will be absolutely marvelous.  Welcome to the new age of minimum wage weldorsRepair, and custom work will probably survive, but industrial factory type work will be like an assembly line.Think it's not possible, just look to the old comic strips.  Dick Tracy had this "unbelievable" wrist watch phone.Even if it's not a total man-less environment, the cost of the new machines will make it impossible to pay the "operators" a fair wage.  The capital will be tied up in the machines.In many cases the work will still be dirty, and dangerous.  But the people performing it will be virtually unskilled.There will be no pride in the work, and I feel that the quality of the work will suffer to some degree, but by that stage of our industrial development, the consumers will already be used to shoddy goods.  We're already approaching that stage.  You pay good money for junk, and shrug your shoulders.  You don't have an alternative.I know it's a pretty simplistic analysis, and a very short one, but I think it's sort of accurate to a degree.  The first track torch, first wire feed semi automated welder, CAD, automated machining (CADCAM?, or whatever it's called), the first plasma cutter.............It's a trend doooods, and you can't stop it.I hope they'll still be payin' a decent wage at Mickey D's when the time comes "Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Antibling, yep, that is a problem with robots in manufacturing shops where the rest of the machines are in various states of disrepair.  Everything's gotta be just about perfect in all the steps before the part gets to the robotic welder or the robot can't do it's job.   You still gotta employ a skilled welder to run the robot and to touch up or re-work it's mistakes.   The hope is that the robot can weld the parts significantly faster the manual welders to justify it's cost and that doesn't always happen either.   Trouble is, management doesn't realize any of this before they make the decision to invest in the technology.   They find out later though!Last edited by DesertRider33; 08-27-2009 at 08:41 PM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Samm, you haven't worked much production, they already hire pretty un-skilled welders in the places I've worked, and they are using the same old machines from the 70s back when welders were all skilled or they wouldn't be a welder.  Quantity has already overtaken quality, that's part of the reason so many truly skilled workers are out of work now.
Reply:Yeah don't worry about it. Manual welders aren't going anywhere for years and years to come. I've spent so much time reworking fed up robot welds and then reteaching i'm surprised i'm still almost sane.
Reply:Y'all are probably right, I'm gettin' too OrwellianProbably won't happen in our lifetimes"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammThink it's not possible, just look to the old comic strips.  Dick Tracy had this "unbelievable" wrist watch phone.
Reply:Another thing a lot of companies now days will spend a couple hundred thousand dollars on a robot welder and then run that thing 24/7 until something breaks. Never do any pm's to it and then wonder why it has tore up after two or three years. Well at least at the places I have worked. Management doesn't want to machine down for pm's because it's not making money if it isn't running but when it breaks they say wtf. My last employer said they was not going to invest in anymore robotic welders because it was not cost efficient to them. I thought man If I bought a new car and never changed the oil in it and the motor locked up at 75,000 miles I would have to say it was my fault not the machines. I don't think manually welding will go any where for a long time because of times like this you can just layoff 10 welders where as with a robot you are stuck with it and the money it took to buy it is tied up in it.
Reply:The robot we had at the manufacturing plant I worked in cost the company about a quarter million dollars with all the tooling and new saws so we could get straight enough cuts so the robot could work.  At the end of I think it was 7 years after we got the robot when the company went under, they sold the robot in liquidation for only $4500.  Nobody wanted it.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Here's a post I did back at the beginning of July. Its still amazing what these folks can do.WOW! A Electronic CNC shop online --------------------------------------------------------------------------------OK folks I flipping the TV channels around before heading to work. I found something titled BEYOND TOMORROW! I thought it was about stuff in the future but here's one for ya!! A Electronic CNC shop online!! You simply download the free software then design your item, send the design, get a price, place order and then wait for item. All Done over the InternetSo I checked online to see if this actually exists. Here is what I foundEMachineShopFrom P2P FoundationJump to: navigation, searchEmachineshop.com brings the community of minipreneurs in touch with all those who can turn their designs into a physical model. URL = http://www.emachineshop.com/ DescriptionFrom the Advanced Civilisation site explanation of how to turn virtual designs into physical objects: "A company called eMachineShop takes Custom Fabrication a step further in terms of ease of use. The US-based company supplies a fairly simple computer-aided design program that once materials have been assigned to the geometric forms an automatic bill of materials can then be calculated. When the user is happy with the design and the price, the information is sent over the Internet to eMachineShop where the parts are fabricated using the appropriate computer-controlled machinery. The finished parts are then mailed back to the user. eMachineShop have cleverly incorporated the limitations of their physical fabrication processes into the CAD program. This means that the company can be sure that they can make anything designed using their software. The company claims to handle part quantities from one-offs to runs up to a million." (http://www.adciv.org/Virtual_designs...ysical_objects) Discussion"When to use eMachineShop: If you need more exotic processes like steel-rule-die blanking, photochemical milling, or rotational molding. They also do standard machining as well, but their breadth of services is the real value. Time & Money: Costs and lead times are going to vary significantly based on the process you select, but you can get instant quotes using their software. Expect prices to start in the hundreds of dollars for most projects and reach into the thousands for more intensive processes. Experience Required: A thorough understanding of manufacturing processes is required to get the best value using eMachineShop. Pros: Wide range of services/materials, Instant quoting Cons: PC only, Steep learning curve" (http://replicatorinc.com/blog/2009/0...ally-pleasing/) As if local competition was enough now its online competition which eliminates customer & shop owner interface. __________________Own farm:Harris oxyacy torch, lincoln 225, stick,Century 135GL mig, Hypertherm PowerMax 45 Plasma CutterCo-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.Hypertherm HPR260 Plasma CutterCo-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.