Recommend a Machine for a Noob...

admin

I've finally decided to get a welder and learn how to use it.  I've been an accomplished woodworker for many years, and if it can be done with wood, I can do it.  I've done some metal fab work, but right now I'm limited to projects I can bolt together since I don't own a welder.  For what it's worth, I can sweat copper pipe all day with no leaks...I need help selecting a machine and also finding some training.   First on the machine.  I am really just looking for homeowner/hobby capabilities, I don't do hardly any auto work, so I don't deal with heavy frame work, etc.  For example, I have two projects teed up for this summer:  One is to build a large BBQ using a 55-gal drum cut in half, and the other is a carry rack for the back of the RV.  I don't live on a farm, so don't need it for that.  Tell me if I'm being shortsighted, but I don't see myself using a material thicker than 1/4 or maybe 5/16.  Other possible project may be a utility trailer for the snow blower.  From the research I've done so far, I gather that I'm looking at a MIG welder.  I see both Miller and Century have 140 models that also accomodate aluminum capabilities.  What's the diff between flux-core and gas shielded?  Should I be prepared to do both?  I see Miller has models that work on both 120/220....seems that would be a good idea.I don't need a massive weld set up, but at the same time I don't like buying cheap tools.  I saw some Chinese crap in Harbor Freight, but for the most part those are one-time tools, use 'em and toss 'em.  I want a good setup that I can use around the house, but I don't want to outgrow it in a year after I figure out how to use it.  I don't have 220v in the garage now but that's easy to run the line and add the outlet.I would really appreciate any recommendations on good quality units.  There's no budget right now, if the "right" unit costs more, then I may have to wait until the spring.Now onto training....welding classes here at the local vocational tech school are a hot commodity and hard to get into.  Lot of HS grads are going for vocational training and certification to make a living.  I already make a good living, I don't want to take a seat in the class away from a kid that needs it.  The local community college has no welding classes for amateurs so to speak.  Can I get any good at this by trial and error and using manuals?  If I post pics of my work here will you guys critique it?  Or is destructive testing the only way to check weld strength?Sorry for the long post, but this is something that I've been thinking about for a long time and now I'm ready to get going.  Hell, I'll be 50 in 2 weeks, what am I waiting for??Thanks!Last edited by Burbman; 01-09-2010 at 03:32 PM.
Reply:It looks like you are asking the right questions. The HF stuff, pass it up. Don’t be obsessed with welding everything in a single pass. You want to be looking at Mig’s in the 160 to 200 amp range that will handle 1/4 to 5/16 in. in one pass. Gas/flux core, yes. Duty cycle, 30 to 50%. Defiantly 220 volts.The rule of thumb is 1 amp for each 0.001 inch of stock thickness. 1/8 inch is 0.125 inches, 0.125 in./ 0.001 amp per inch = 125 amps. So you’ll need a unit that puts out125 amps. Not really, that 125 amps is the welding current and the unit needs to be larger to account for heating, duty cycle. To work properly the unit should have a higher current maximum output, say 160 amps. You will still be welding at 125 amps, the unit will not be working at full capacity which will allow you to weld for 4 minutes and let it cool for 6 minutes, a 40% duty cycle. At the maximum 160 amp setting the weld time would be zero. Lower welding currents will extend the weld time and you will find a current setting that will allow you to weld 100% of the time. now the limited welding time for you is not a terrible handicap, you will be setting up for the next weld, adjusting things and while all this is going on the unit is cooling.Need to weld 3/16 stock? Up the welding current. Need to weld say 3/8 stock and the mig is limited to 1/4 inch? That’s where stock preparation comes in to play, a V joint and you will not be welding the full depth in one pass, maybe two or three. This should cover some of the basics. Have fun making sparks.
Reply:I'd say the Millermatic 140 or Millermatic 211.  The 211 is 110/220, which means you may not ever feel the need for more power -- at least for the types of jobs you're describing.  You can get the 211 for $965 delivered from a vendor like IOC.  The 140 is $650 from the same place.Jack OlsenMy garage website
Reply:I agree on the foreign units. Definitely get the 220 volt unit, you'll never regret it. It's better to have the extra amps and not need 'em than be wishing it had a little more for the occasional heavy job. I have a Miller 175 mig about 5 yrs old now and on it's 3rd 10 lb roll of .024 wire. Outside of cleaning the liner 3 or 4 times, it's been trouble free.  If you're gonna self teach, that's fine. There's plenty here to guide you, just be prepared to separate the wheat from the chaff on advice. There's as many opinions as posters on every thread. I operated and repaired portable rock crushers for 32 yrs 'til I retired, but I don't consider myself a good judge of welding, so I try to stay mum on the subject. I figure there's plenty of others here to fill in for me.                                      MikeLast edited by mla2ofus; 01-09-2010 at 06:10 PM.Ol' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:MM211&Miller Student Package  $25.00(11) Miller Reference BooksGMAW-P (PulsedMIG) Welding PublicationGTAW (TIG) Welding PublicationGMAW (MIG) Welding PublicationGuidelines for GMAW WeldingThe Fundamentals of Solid StatePrinciples of Arc WeldingHandbook for Resistance Spot WeldingArc Stud Welding FundamentalsParalleling Arc Welding Power SourcesBasic ElectricityWelding and the World of MetalsUniversal Safety Symbol Poster(3) Miller Slide Calculators — Stick, MIG, and TIGand as mentioned run a 240v Circuit.The MM211 will operate on 120v and 240v but definitely run it on 240v- the 120v is for convenience if you find yourself somewhere with only 120v- Like in the RVEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Buy a bigger machine than you think you will need. Usually once people get started they find more and more projects to do and frequently find they need more machine than they bought.The MM140 is really way under powered if you are even thinking about alum. Alum is a better heat sink than steel, so it takes more amps to weld alum than the same thickness steel. If you want to do alum, I'd suggest at least a 200 amp class 220v machine. The 180 class machines don't leave you much room for adjustments.Solid wire mig with gas vs Fluxcore. Gas mig is cleaner, is well suited for thick or thin materials, but costs more for gas, cylinder and need to be done where the wind won't blow away shielding gas. On the MM140 expect the maximum thickness you can weld with solid wire and gas to be 1/8" thick under real world conditions. FC mig is some what like stick welding. It has a flux that covers the weld, it's messier, can be used outside in a mild breeze. When you look at the max thickness that can be welded with the MM140, it's using FC wire. It gives better penetration than gas mig. It will extend the thickness a bit, maybe 1/16" or so in the real world, but the down side is it can be much harder to weld thin metals with this.As far as a good starter machine, I'd recommend a minimum of a 220v mig, preferably 200 amps. The MM211 is a nice choice. You can use it on 110v power for portability, but with reduced thicknesses, or plug in to 220v and use it to it's maximum capacity. The DVI is similar, but it's a larger more expensive machine, and not very portable like the MM211. The down side to the MM211/DVI is that you pay more to have the 110v option. If it will only be used in the shop, then you can look at other machines, Miller, Hobart, Lincoln all make good 220v migs. You can also find some good deals on used migs if you do a bit of looking and are patient.As far as classes, it is possible to learn mig on your own, but it will take a good deal more time and effort to do so. You will learn faster and be a better welder if you can take a class. I tried for years to learn on my own, but my skills grew exponentially as soon as I had someone who could watch what I was doing and point out my mistakes and help me correct them. I'd strongly suggest you sign up for a class. The school won't know they have a need for more class space if you don't try. I missed out on the advanced tig class this term near me. They have a waiting list if someone drops. Because of this they have added an extra class starting in March that will run for only 5 weeks, but be 2 nights a week rather than the usual one. All in all the class is a good deal. Usually you will spend at least that much if not a lot more, on gas, wire and steel doing it on your own to get to the same point. Since you will have a machine of your own, you can practice at home and spend class time learning, not practicing. Your other option would be to find someone who welds and pay them help you learn. Take a minute to go up to the top left and add your location under User CP so we all know where you are. Not long ago one member offered to help someone who lived near by with a problem..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Thanks for the info, it sounds like I'm on the right track but should be looking for slightly bigger machine.   Originally Posted by DSWBuy a bigger machine than you think you will need. Usually once people get started they find more and more projects to do and frequently find they need more machine than they bought.
Reply:Oxy-Acetylene is a different welding process.  It uses heat.  It's not as fast as MIG, and isn't as easy to learn.  It's been around the longest of just about any welding process (I think), and has real flexibility, since you don't need an electrical source to weld.  That said, it takes a while to heat things up, and the danger of a potential fire or explosion from having Acetylene tanks around is something you should think about.  One positive to Oxy-AC is that you can also use it to heat up frozen nuts and you can also cut steel with it.Jack OlsenMy garage website
Reply:Good point, and probably not for me, just wanted to understand the difference.  What about a stcik welder vs the wire feed?
Reply:Originally Posted by BurbmanThis is exactly what I was concerned about....let me ask a silly question though.,...these machines that use electricity are generically called arc welders, right?  What about a 2-tank gas setup that uses oxygen and acetylene?  Are thobut tse harder to use?  More expensive?  meant for different stuff?.
Reply:An electric "arc" can be harnessed to weld with by any "arc" welder, though they acheive this welding by differing processes. Mig welders, tig welders, stick welders, and spot welders are all "arc welders". Like was mentioned earlier, arc welders are often spoken of when referring to stick welders. If you get serious about "stick" welding, get an AC/DC machine, trust me!  Keep on asking the right questions! City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Stick is a little bit tougher to learn, but it can be more user friendly some times. It doesn't have any linings that need cleaned, or spools of wire that can get tangled up, very low maintenance. It's easy to switch filler metals, just pop a different rod in it. Switch from aluminum to mild steel, to staineless, bada bing bada boom, just like that. You can use it outside on projects. And there's no heavy bottles of gas to lug around like mig. Down sides. Stick can be more messy than mig. Spatter on your work piece, slag on the floor, rod stubs. It's usually not as fast as the wire feed processes. Thin work is harder to do. I find it's easier to tack the parts together with mig. And as said befor, stick can be a little harder to learn that mig.If you're going to teach yourself how to weld, I would deffinetly see if you can find an experienced welder to give you some pointers. Some one local that can watch you weld a little bit. And deffinetly check in back here at welding web. Lots of people eager to help.One more note about mig I like to warn noobs about, especially ones looking to learn on their own, is that with mig you can lay down some beautiful welds that aren't worth dirt. So if you go with a mig welder, make sure you do some destructive tests to make sure that you're makeing good welds, not nice looking accidents waiting to happen.
Reply:Burbman,You and I have similar backgrounds and interests, except I am 7 years older and started my welding experience 2.5 years ago. I have bought, used, and sold 5-6 welders trying to get to the right ones. I started with a new MM140 and bought a couple of used AC stick machines. I am pleased with the welders that I have now - a MM211AS and a used AC/DC Thunderbolt. They can do a lot more than I can do with my training and experience, but I don't feel limited in anything I want to try. I have read everything I can find for over 2 years, this forum is one of the best sources you will find. Broccoli1 already mentioned the Miller Student Package and I agree that is the best $25 you will spend. Here is the link: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/tools/ . Go to the bottom and you can order direct from Miller.I also took a Continuing Ed course from our local college and was lucky enough to get into a 3 day Miller training course at work, eventhough I am not in maintenance.If you have the time to look around, you will find a LOT of good quality used welders of every make and model. Craigslist seems to be the best for me because the sellers are local enough you can go there, see it, use it and take it home with you. eBay is almost prohibitive because it costs so much to ship, but I have actually sold on eBay. Don't be afraid of a used welder from Miller, Hobart, or Lincoln. There is not a lot that goes wrong with a well cared for machine and you can get parts for machines that are 25-30 years old or older.A lot of my buddies are still woodworking and I do on occasion, but I have really enjoyed welding. I'm sure you will too. Welcome to the Forum, keep asking questions, and post some pictures when you get started.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Thanks for the tips guys.  The local vocational school offers beginning welding classes, and I am going to call Monday to see if I can get into the next one.  It's 42 hrs, every Monday from 6:30-10:00 for about 13 weeks.  Cost is $650!!  Ouch!!  But if I'm going to drop $$ one large on a machine, I may as well learn how to use it properly.  Here's a question...I'm thinking I should wait until I take the class before I buy a machine, this way I can get the feel of what they have us using at the school...or should I buy one now so I can practice at home while I'm taking classes?Burt, you say you started with the MM140, that was the machine I was originally thinking about.  Would you do that again or would have started with the MM211?  Some things I go in cheap to see if I'm going to like it or am any good at it, and if I stick with it I upgrade to better equipment.  Did that with the RV among other things.  This is something I';ve always wanted to learn, and if I'm going to drop cash on the class, I'm committed from day one and would like to get a machine that I won't grow out of.Grimm, the Lincoln 225 AC/DC machine that my friend is using is about half the price of the MM211, and doesn't need the gas bottle...would that be a better way to go?As an aside, what is TIG welding?Thanks again for the helpful responses.
Reply:Originally Posted by BurbmanHere's a question...I'm thinking I should wait until I take the class before I buy a machine, this way I can get the feel of what they have us using at the school...or should I buy one now so I can practice at home while I'm taking classes?
Reply:DSW, thanks for the info...the local vocational school has separate classes for MIG and O/A.  Here's the " target="_blank">class I'm looking at.Sounds like I'll never need TIG in my lifetime unless I pursue a career as a ceritified welder.  Right now I'm leaning towards taking the class and buying a MM211....that sounds like the best choice for me.
Reply:Can't find the "edit" button, but the word "class" in my above post is a link.  Not sure why it's not uinderlined and/or blue....