Howe & Howe? What is the Zen of Design?

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Greetings to all as this is my first post here. I used to post on Millerwelds (man do many of their posters seem to hate this forum for some reason) but this is the first time here. I am just a hobbyist that has learned welding mostly through the school of hard knocks. I have actually enrolled in some classes at a professional school nearby to sharpen the skills and learn all sorts of stuff I dont know now. I am not interested in changing careers from a software engineer so much as I am interested in improving my skills and hobby. I have welded mostly non-critical stuff since I started welding. I have put together my welding table, some metal art and done some repairs and other things. However, I am looking to expand that and get into welding more critical things. Personally I have done Stick and tig welding but didnt really like mig welding much. I just bought a miller syncrowave 200 so that I dont have to go to a friend's shop anymore to weld. Specifically I am interested in renovating pre 60s era RVs as well as designing and building new RVs from the ground up. I would potentially be interested in welding some vehicles as well, perpas even make a dune buggy some day or some other off road vehicle.  This requires a whole new level of welding competence I will be trying to get at the courses above what I have done on my own. Anyway this brings me to my question. I am sure that many of you have seen the new show "Howe & Howe Tech" put on by the discovery channel which chronicles the shop of the two guys that designed the Ripsaw and sold it to the military as a UGV. The show is great if you haven't caught it. The two men seem to be fairly well educated but they dont seem to sport advanced degrees in mechanical engineering. Nor do they seem to do a lot of wind tunnel testing, exhaustive mathematical analysis and so on. Yet they make excellently built products good enough to impress the military. This is a common trend I have seen among small shop and hobbyists working on their race car in their shop. Few have advanced mechanical degrees, many are too young to have 20 years of experience in the business so how do they do the design? That is the real pivotal question. How do these people come up with the right design with metal tubing of the right strength in the right area without a squad of mechanical engineers and banks of computers performing complex analysis. This bears directly on my hobby. For example, lets say I want to design a new kind of travel trailer. I would have to order tubing from the manufacturer but how do you know what thickness, what size and so on. A trailer frame is a complex mechanical device that cant be analyzed as simply as a statically loaded I-beam. Of course I could pick materials that are over engineered. For example if building a 30 foot trailer with two axles and a 9000# GVWR I could pick metal that could take a 9000# weight at center with acceptable deflection that wouldn't exceed proportional stress. A 2" x 10" x 1/4" tube would do that just fine but the reality is it would be incredibly over engineered. Perhaps I could have gotten by with a 2" x 4" x 1/4" tube instead. So how is it done gentlemen. Where is the zen of design. I can get out my cad program and draw up models but how do I plan for the right sizes and stresses? Or do people just really over engineer things and say "that's done" ? Thanks for reading my long winded intro, and thanks in advance for any replies.Last edited by kraythe; 01-13-2010 at 05:11 PM.
Reply:In some things like off road, you can probably take a wild a$$ guess (WAG), bump it for a rough safety factor, build it and see if it brakes and then redo it when it fails. It's a poor way to design something, especially if you want to push the limits, or try and save weight. It's really not an option for thing that go on the road however like trailers and so on.I hate to say it, it's why we have engineers, and why they make big bucks. Even basic structures are somewhat complex. A simple steel beam in a building takes 6 or 8 equasions to work out beam size, and thats using mostly predeterminded materials. When you start changing material shapes ( I beam vs C channel vs angle iron vs round or square tube), use different material ( mild steel vs alum vs chrome moly vs titanium or specialty high tensile steel (100K+)) and start dealing with complex forces ( changing member angles from 30 deg to 45, lengthening or shortening  axle locations on the same frame length) , there's no simple shortcut. There are probably CAD programs designed to do a lot of the number crunching, but you can bet they  probably have a minimum 4-5 digit price tags..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIn some things like off road, you can probably take a wild a$$ guess (WAG), bump it for a rough safety factor, build it and see if it brakes and then redo it when it fails. It's a poor way to design something, especially if you want to push the limits, or try and save weight. It's really not an option for thing that go on the road however like trailers and so on.I hate to say it, it's why we have engineers, and why they make big bucks. Even basic structures are somewhat complex. A simple steel beam in a building takes 6 or 8 equasions to work out beam size, and thats using mostly predeterminded materials. When you start changing material shapes ( I beam vs C channel vs angle iron vs round or square tube), use different material ( mild steel vs alum vs chrome moly vs titanium or specialty high tensile steel (100K+)) and start dealing with complex forces ( changing member angles from 30 deg to 45, lengthening or shortening  axle locations on the same frame length) , there's no simple shortcut. There are probably CAD programs designed to do a lot of the number crunching, but you can bet they  probably have a minimum 4-5 digit price tags.
Reply:Originally Posted by kraytheSo it seems like you are saying "just give it up and leave it to the big comapnies." If so then what happened to good old fashioned ingeniuty and innovation in the independent american. Have we grown so soft and lazy that we cant push the envelope anymore and must use big business and big government to subsidize our existence?
Reply:Originally Posted by kraytheSo it seems like you are saying "just give it up and leave it to the big comapnies." If so then what happened to good old fashioned ingeniuty and innovation in the independent american. Have we grown so soft and lazy that we cant push the envelope anymore and must use big business and big government to subsidize our existence?
Reply:Nope, grab a book and learn. I took 4 semesters of basic structures as part of gaining my Bachelors of Architecture. Most of it wasn't to teach us how to do structural design, but give us a basic understanding of just whats involved in engineering members and sizing. The idea was to understand why we need engineers not to teach us to do the design work.You need at least a basic understanding of whats going on. Why can you build a thin member truss and carry more weight than a thick short I beam? Why can you use less steel by weight with say a 14" I beam, over an 8" one, yet hold up more weight? How much will a certain member flex when it's loaded and is this too much and cause fatigue failures? How much stronger is a tube made of 4030 over one of the same dimensions made of mild steel? What if you used high tensile steel with say 100KSI strength and what happens if you heat treat it? If you change to alum how much taller or thicker will it have to be to have the same strength? What grade of alum are you going to choose? How much weld area is required to withstand the load on the member if you use a 60XX series rod or change to a 70XX or 80XX rod? If you use a 110XX series rod will you be better off or worse with mild steel? Whats the bearing capacity on grade 5, 1/2" bolts in single shear, double sheer in 5/8" steel, and how much stronger would grade 8 bolts be? How many bolts are required to withstand the tensile force on the member? Whats the torque value for those bolts? Whats the minimum edge tear out dimension for those bolts and the pitch and edge distance? I can go on, and these are basic questions just flipping thru my basic structures book for the most part.I can guarantee you that those guys on Howe and Howe after they won their basic contract to refine their design, had an engineer go over the drawings and make changes. And this is for a vehicle thats unmanned and not used on public roads. Thats was part of the "refining" process.One thing to keep in mind also now days is the idea of liability. If you choose to do your own design, expect to spend BIG bucks on your liability insurance as opposed to having an engineer approve plans and you just fab it. If you skip that part and just do it yourself and don't tell the insurance company, expect to be hanging in the breeze if something fails, because they won't cover you. If the engineer signs off on it, it's his @ss thats responsible if the design not the workmanship is at fault..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Hi kraythe and Welcome to the Welding Web Family!   Congratulations on your miller welding machine. And about the trailer building, that's where the different trailer plans come in. They(trailer store, engineer,etc) had to do all the study, application, testing before it is put on the market for us to get the right materials and build.  I believe, too, that many things were simply improved on from an earlier model that wasn't seen before or somebody wanted a better aspect of it. That's entrepreneurs: "Find a need and fill it!'Rodney                                   The blessing of the Lord makes one rich, And He adds no sorrow with it.'  Proverbs 10:22 NKJV
Reply:On the subject of Howe & Howe, I did see the episode last night where they are beginning to test a contraption which will be an add on to their rip saw for removing vehicles (with potential IED explosive devices inside) from the roadway. It was a spear which they ram through the car, then shoot about 16 inches of the spear tip (which is attached by chain) into the car,  then as they back the ripsaw vehicle up, the tip turns sideways as not to go back through the hole and pull the car from the roadway. I am certain more than one person who saw this thinks that ramming a car with any IED is a BAD idea and a complete hillbilly way of handling an explosive device in the roadway.I do like the show but those guys need an engineer. My guess is that at some point they will have to hire one. The military will require it or L&I, or their personal insurance. I read Popular Mechanics magazine and last year these guys were featured for the Ripsaw vehicle which is super cool and a great idea, but I suspect they will need to step up their game to stay in business.
Reply:So the message seems to be universal? Without hiring millions of dollars worth of help, there isnt any point to design or build anything anymore? Lawyers have us so paralyzed that we arent even willing to try anymore? What a sad state of affairs. It makes me wonder why people here weld things for thier own. I mean why bother if it is just to tinker in the garage pretending you are something big? There has to be something more, there have to be people who can cross the street without fear of a lawyer. But then lawyers have destroyed the school system, educational system, the manufacturing industry in america and everything they can get their hands on. Its only fitting the biggest lawyer group in america, the ACLU, is defending terrorists I suppose. At any rate I supposed if I want to go this route I will have to take some chances on my own, do the best I can and then have a pro look over my plans. I dont have enough money to keep a full time staff engineer to support a hobby and I will be damned if I am going to let the lawyers and do gooders beat me into submission. I will do the best I can and hopefully I can hire an engineer to look it over. But honestly I dont know where I could even find an engineer like that. At any rate I hate to tell you guys something but even if you have an engineer plan it, and design it. ; even if you have a pro welder build it; even if you have an insurance company insure it; they can STILL go after YOU for every penny they can get. The sad fact is that the law is so obtuse and the power of the lawyers so great that they are, in a way, some of the biggest domestic terrorists we have. Perhaps we should all give up, take up knitting and change the name of the forum. Is it too much to ask to find just a few people with the good old fashioned Amercian can-do spirit?Last edited by kraythe; 01-13-2010 at 09:54 PM.
Reply:Saw the show last night.  Parts of it were interesting.  Remember, you are only seeing and hearing what the producers want you to see.  I have a number of friends and relatives who are engineers.  According to them, there is a trend for fabricators to move away from having their own engineering staffs.  They use independent engineers or companies that specialize in just the engineering aspects of a project.  Frequently, the engineers are off shore (China) never even meeting the fabricators.  They exchange information via internet.
Reply:Originally Posted by kraytheSo the message seems to be universal? Without hiring millions of dollars worth of help, there isnt any point to design or build anything anymore?  You missed the point. You don't have to spend millions of dollars. You just have to spend some time and learn before you leap. Can you tell my why a truss can carry heavier loads than an I beam? It's a very basic principle having to do with any type of load member design. I'm really serious about this question, do you know?Lawyers have us so paralyzed that we arent even willing to try anymore? What a sad state of affairs. It makes me wonder why people here weld things for thier own. I mean why bother if it is just to tinker in the garage pretending you are something big? There has to be something more, there have to be people who can cross the street without fear of a lawyer. But then lawyers have destroyed the school system, educational system, the manufacturing industry in america and everything they can get their hands on. Its only fitting the biggest lawyer group in america, the ACLU, is defending terrorists I suppose.  I can't say I disagree with you here. Unfortunately until tort reform comes along we are stuck with the current system. Since most politicians are lawyers, I don't see that happening soon I'm afraid.At any rate I supposed if I want to go this route I will have to take some chances on my own, do the best I can and then have a pro look over my plans. I dont have enough money to keep a full time staff engineer to support a hobby and I will be damned if I am going to let the lawyers and do gooders beat me into submission. I will do the best I can and hopefully I can hire an engineer to look it over. Pretty much nailed it there. The only thing I question is if you are talking about a hobby or a business. If you are designing a trailer for personal use, it's a bit different than that as a pro for sale. Maybe I misunderstood your idea when you wanted to do a "new kind of travel trailer" If you are doing a radical departure from the norm, you had better have all you "I"'s dotted and "T"'s crossed. If all you want to do is build  some thing custom, you can take a proven design, bump it for safety and work from there. Your weld skills still need to be at the pro level and not that of a "hobbyist".But honestly I dont know where I could even find an engineer like that. Yellow pages. Thats what engineers do. Most places can't afford to keep an engineer on staff. In housing construction, it's very common to hire engineers on an as needed basis. Anything thats not "normal" gets run by an engineer. He cranks out the calcs and looks for major flaws in the design, or makes the appropriate recommendation of whats needed.At any rate I hate to tell you guys something but even if you have an engineer plan it, and design it. ; even if you have a pro welder build it; even if you have an insurance company insure it; they can STILL go after YOU for every penny they can get. The sad fact is that the law is so obtuse and the power of the lawyers so great that they are, in a way, some of the biggest domestic terrorists we have.  Yep, again you are right. The difference is that if you covered all the bases you'll probably survive financially. You may have to pay, but the wolves will have bigger targets to go after. It's also one advantage of being a business as opposed to an individual. In many cases the business can shield the individual unless it can be proved that you were negligent. It's a bit tougher to do if you've had an engineer sign off on the plan, have current welding certs that are applicable, have liability insurance and are under the umbrella of a business like a corporation. In some states like Pa there are some personal assets that are off limits in a suit if you are an employee of a company, like your home.Perhaps we should all give up, take up knitting and change the name of the forum. Is it too much to ask to find just a few people with the good old fashioned Amercian can-do spirit.Spirit's all fine and dandy, but you need a health dose of reality to go with it. Dangerous items that travel on the roads (ie trailers) are a bit different than a BBQ. Just be happy you don't want to build your own airplane. You'll end up with all the inspections and BS that the FAA requires on any commercially made  lite aircraft. Do you think you could just toss together a new design for a Cessna from scratch and take off into the wild blue yonder? It always amazes me how almost no one would even think about building their own plane without training and plans, and yet it's fine to do a trailer thats probably more dangerous. I'll bet more people are killed or injured each year by trailers than they are by aircraft.
Reply:I am not a business, just a regular guy. As for pro welding capability I can do some good welds but I dont have 25 years experience welding on a pipeline or anything. I would assume that welds that were critical could be inspected of course I dont know how much that or the engineer would cost. I just wanted to build something new but I am getting extremely discouraged and just tempted to say to hell with it, go to work, come home and live the life of a drone. I wonder If I will go cradzy first or die of boredom first. And here all I wanted to do is a custom trailer for myself and my family, maybe some day to make it a business. A trailer built specifically for boondocking and off grid camping as no other has been before. I wonder how much that consulting engineer would be? Probably thousands I imagine and I dont have a budget like that. And more thousands for the inspector on the welds. Leave it up to the cineese to build everyhing for us I guess. American life made in ****ing china.Back to the TV I guess I wonder if I can stomach watching another rerun of MASH.
Reply:Originally Posted by kraythe............At any rate I supposed if I want to go this route I will have to take some chances on my own, do the best I can and then have a pro look over my plans. I dont have enough money to keep a full time staff engineer to support a hobby and I will be damned if I am going to let the lawyers and do gooders beat me into submission. I will do the best I can and hopefully I can hire an engineer to look it over. ...............................Is it too much to ask to find just a few people with the good old fashioned Amercian can-do spirit?
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyGood ol American can-do spirit would have had the damn project half done by now instead of hunting all over the internet for someone to hand you the info you want. How many books have you bought? How much info have you read? When I don't hear what I like I just shut up and get 'er done. I don't try an make every one else feel guilty for not handing me what I don't have.
Reply:Originally Posted by kraytheI am not a business, just a regular guy. As for pro welding capability I can do some good welds but I dont have 25 years experience welding on a pipeline or anything. I would assume that welds that were critical could be inspected of course I dont know how much that or the engineer would cost. I just wanted to build something new but I am getting extremely discouraged and just tempted to say to hell with it, go to work, come home and live the life of a drone. I wonder If I will go cradzy first or die of boredom first. And here all I wanted to do is a custom trailer for myself and my family, maybe some day to make it a business. A trailer built specifically for boondocking and off grid camping as no other has been before. I wonder how much that consulting engineer would be? Probably thousands I imagine and I dont have a budget like that. And more thousands for the inspector on the welds. Leave it up to the cineese to build everyhing for us I guess. American life made in ****ing china.Back to the TV I guess I wonder if I can stomach watching another rerun of MASH.
Reply:You're still somewhat missing the point I believe. Lets try and look at this a different way.Do you need a special suspension? If not, then all you really are designing is a box that you stick on a trailer frame. Almost any flatbed design would work if it's the right size. For the most part that relieves you of most of the problems and design issues that are the big concern. Now if you want to do some funky 4 wheel independent suspension for dragging this trailer rock crawling, thats a bit different. If you want more ground clearance, thats just a matter of picking a different axle/ rim/ tire combo, like those on military trailers. You haven't reinvented the wheel.As far as the engineer's cost, it might be a few hundred or several thousand, depends on how far off mainstream you plan to build this thing. If you want to make it a business at some point, plan to have one look at it. Again, if it's a new box on an existing trailer, this part may not be as critical.As far as inspection. Can you pass a basic cert in all positions for the process you will use? If you can go pass a 6G mig (assuming mig is what you plan to use) test  on a regular basis for the material you want to use, you are probably good enough. If not you need more practice or need to learn more. There are all sorts of tests that can be done if required, and done in house.PM sent..Last edited by DSW; 01-13-2010 at 11:29 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by kraythe A trailer built specifically for boondocking and off grid camping as no other has been before.
Reply:You can start studying CAD and F.E.A.  Or do it the old fashion American way*, reverse engineering.*disclaimer the American way has forever been renamed the Chinese wayVantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:kraythe, I think you can't see the forest for the trees.I have had a varied and interesting career in the welding trade.  I have seen the results of some "home made and handy" projects and some were damn lucky nobody was maimed or killed.  I have done x-ray welding on a lot of projects and I can guarantee that there were plenty of engineers involved every step of the way!   Lawyers too.Once, in my younger days, I was told to build a vessel to use as a filtering unit.  I looked at the plans and voiced my concerns about it being a poor design but was told to make it, "it will be O.K.".  Being young and dumb, I did as ordered, even beefed up some of what I thought were the weaker points.As unit was filled with water and pressure was brought up to about 45 PSI things stared to happen fast.  It is truly amazing how much steel can move before failure!  Bolts stretch and fly apart like bullets!  Luckily the bolts gave some relief to the pressure and the pumps were shutdown pronto.  People stood around all wide eyed, staring in disbelief.  Long story short, bosses decided to consult an engineering firm.  Given plans and pressures, they were told that we were lucky to be alive.  I was way under with my best guess on what was needed but if I hadn't put in some extra meat where I thought it was needed myself and a few others might not be around today.  I did manage to get a raise out of the deal so all was not lost!At any rate I hate to tell you guys something but even if you have an engineer plan it, and design it. ; even if you have a pro welder build it; even if you have an insurance company insure it; they can STILL go after YOU for every penny they can get. The sad fact is that the law is so obtuse and the power of the lawyers so great that they are, in a way, some of the biggest domestic terrorists we have.
Reply:Hi kraythe. I think you are doing good. You are looking and asking questions. That's a start. One reason I suggested plans is so that you could look at a trailer similar to the one you have in mind and study it. Keep asking questions, why the brace here? why this size c channel? etc. You could get that started and declare this is my future project. And in the mean time, get to improve on your welding skills and get to know all about your new to you miller machine. Even when you get to the 'trailer built, now what' somebody somewhere can help you through the legal process of getting it registered,etc.Rodney                                   The blessing of the Lord makes one rich, And He adds no sorrow with it.'  Proverbs 10:22 NKJV
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1My Trailer holds 150 gallons fresh water,50/50 black& Gray, batteries, generator, front bedroom, Rear queen Bunk beds, Shower inside as well as an outside shower, ramp to load my toys, Fuel tank with 60gallons capacity.hmm but no television- I do have room for one.but you want something cool?http://www.hackneys.com/mitsu/
Reply:Originally Posted by WHughesA few years back I needed to subsidize my income and decided to build some utility trailers. I am a welder by trade but designed them myself because they are simple. But after the first few trailers, I called SAE and registered with them and they issued me a World Manufacturer Identifier number (WMI) which was free to do. With that, a business license for my state and an insurance bond, I could build trailers, and stamp a vin number of my own using my WMI numbers. If I was to hire employees, L&I would be involved and it gets a little more in depth but not difficult. It was inexpensive to do and required little or no engineering. Getting legal is something to be done because you have integrity, and as a business, a responsibility to keep the public safe on the roadways. I just wanted to point out the hillbilly engineering of the Howe and Howe crew regarding the 'car piercer'.
Reply:Originally Posted by kraytheI just love the attitude of "yeah these guys sold a major product to the military, broke ground on several innovations and ended up getting a discovery channel show on it; but they are a bunch of hillbilly morons that dont know crap." What arrogance! And people think I am arrogant for wanting to build a damn trailer. Amazing. .
Reply:Kraythe, I gota tell ya: When a boy gets around to start thinkin' ‘bout the spell he's gonna set in the pen, if he gets caught with a car load of liquor, it can be sort of inspirational to his vehicle modification idears.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI actually personally know someone who got a Discovery Channel show. He's a good friend of mine. He's one of the hosts, he gets to live his dream job, doing things he loves and getting paid for it. He's a great guy, but he's definitely not the person who's displayed as the great explorer/researcher that he's made out to be on the show. Trust me if he was posting a response to this, the F bomb would be dropping in every other sentence and he'd probably be banned for the abuse he'd have given you. He's a stereo typical @sshole New Yorker, and darn proud of it. He'll tell you that to your face. I've been out with them on film shoots. The show is nothing like the reality in which it's shot. There's too much hype and BS added to wow the public. You watch the show, and they make it out to be some great dangerous mission or they've uncovered some great mystery, and it's all BS. Those that actually know whats going on can see thru the smoke and mirrors..Originally Posted by kraytheI dont understand how this isnt non-sequitur. Am I missing something?
Reply:You tried to change the opinions of professionals over at Miller and your questioning pro's here.Buy a new trailer.  Don't risk modding your own and killing someone.If you don't like the tone at this forum as well....................bye
Reply:Originally Posted by kraythe Originally Posted by denrepKraythe, I gota tell ya: When a boy gets around to start thinkin' ‘bout the spell he's gonna set in the pen, if he gets caught with a car load of liquor, it can be sort of inspirational to his vehicle modification idears.
Reply:Originally Posted by LarryOYou tried to change the opinions of professionals over at Miller and your questioning pro's here.Buy a new trailer.  Don't risk modding your own and killing someone.If you don't like the tone at this forum as well....................bye
Reply:Originally Posted by 4sfedLet me translate this statement from "good ole boy" to "Yankee" . . . denrep, forgive me if it's not perfect, I'm only 1/4 good ole boy and 3/4 Yankee.Carefully consider the potential negative consequences and possible preventions before making your modifications
Reply:Just to show your level of knowledge on welding....Kemppi is not Chinese, its made in Finland and will be better than anything you will ever own.Thermal Arc is JapaneseCutskill is localSpeedglas is Sweeden i think.Hypertherm is American................Where is the Chinese?
Reply:Originally Posted by LarryOJust to show your level of knowledge on welding....Kemppi is not Chinese, its made in Finland and will be better than anything you will ever own.Thermal Arc is JapaneseCutskill is localSpeedglas is Sweeden i think.Hypertherm is American................Where is the Chinese?
Reply:Originally Posted by kraythe I wish I could have found an american made bandsaw better than JET but *shrug*
Reply:Oh and I should add one more thing. The fact that on both forums people arent able to answer some rather simple deflection questions is really worrying. I have gotten a book on mechanical engineering so perhaps I can answer them in time myself. I guess a lot of people go with the "try it and if it doesnt break go with it" methodology. So the answer to the original question is that there isnt any Zen of design among the hobbyists here or on the internet. Its just a mantter of replicating other people's recipies and or pure guessing and then dissing those that are successful and develop something new.Miller Syncrowave 200 Runner (Home)Victor Journeyman Torch Rig (Home)Jet Horizontal and Vertical BandsawMiller Spectrum 375 (Next on the List)
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1http://www.ellissaw.com/and that is just one.
Reply:Im in Australia too....On the other side of the world.A lot of people on this forum have come and gone because they dont like it here.I saw what you tried to do at Miller and on your first post, your asking the same question then dont accept the advice of pro's.And SundownIII is a member of this forum too..
Reply:Originally Posted by LarryOIm in Australia too....On the other side of the world.A lot of people on this forum have come and gone because they dont like it here.I saw what you tried to do at Miller and on your first post, your asking the same question then dont accept the advice of pro's.And SundownIII is a member of this forum too..
Reply:http://www.glen-l.com/campers/glenlrv.htmlYour constant bleating on the "Lost Can Do Spirit" is quite annoying- this FORUM is filled with folks that have it.I don't understand how you make that leap when someone tells you it is cheaper to buy a trailer- and BTW you CAN buy an American Made Trailer-Yes it is cheaper but will not be made exactly to your Specs/needs. Cool, time to build one then....but the answers to your questions about beefing up an existing trailer Frame to meet new Higher GVWR just can not be found on a Forum like this.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749I'm not one who usually jumps in crap like this, but you have done little more than refuse to accept the fact that although you have been repeatedly told what you want to do isn't a good idea, you push ahead anyways & call the people YOU asked advice from clueless & without vision. If you had any respect for any of the individuals YOU asked for advice, you would have shut your mouth & listened to them.
Reply:I think the original poster should just pay for mechanical engineer to determine his true needs for his trailer plan.  If the ME signs off on the design, I'd feel pretty confident that it would hold PROVIDED that it was welded by a certified welder.Please consult an ME and let us know what he/she says.Millermatic Passport PlusMillermatic 200Millermatic 350P with PythonXMT 304 /w S-64 feeder and 12RCDynasty 300 DXVictor O/APremier Power Welder for my trail junk.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1...but the answers to your questions about beefing up an existing trailer Frame to meet new Higher GVWR just can not be found on a Forum like this.
Reply:Originally Posted by crawlerI think the original poster should just pay for mechanical engineer to determine his true needs for his trailer plan.  If the ME signs off on the design, I'd feel pretty confident that it would hold PROVIDED that it was welded by a certified welder.Please consult an ME and let us know what he/she says.
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749You seem to have a comeback & secondary argument to every single response.It's become little more than a show of how badly you can embarrass yourself.Keep it up, you're doing a great job.
Reply:kraythe,  I have read this thread and the one on the Miller forum. I must disagree that you are being told to give up. What you are being told is, and it is clear to me as well, that you do not have the skill set at this time to tackle something of this nature and there are better options out there for someone of your skill set. Please do not take that comment as a bash. A project of this nature will be a challenge to a welder with years of experience. It is not something that someone just jumps on. The public safety issue has been mentioned many times and you seem not to care. It is attitudes such as this that result in people getting hurt or killed which then results in what you keep throwing out there....LAWYERS! So the fear of lawyers is a direct result of actions such as the ones you are trying to justify. Can what you want to do be done? Yes. But if you are going to do it I would suggest that you approach some less dangerous projects first to build your skills with that will not have the potential to hurt/kill someone if they happen to fail. This will also give you time to study up on the practical engineering side of your quest. Hobby welders with little to no experience and over the road vehicles/trailers is a scary combination that has, and unfortunately will again, ended up badly. Anybody and everybody can weld but not everybody can be a welder, and yes there is a big difference. In short I think the general consensus is that it is not so much that it can not be done but that you are not quite ready to do it. This is made quite evident by your posts and queries concerning this. Again this is not a bash. There is a big difference between ignorance and stupidity. Ignorance is not a bad thing. nobody is born knowing everything so we are all, each and every one of us, ignorant in some way or another.What ever you decide I wish you the best of luck and I truly hope it does not end in tragedy.Best regards,jrw159 PS. SundownIII was really pretty civil to you both here and on the Miller forum compared to what he can be.
Reply:I'm amazed that you can't see the "can do" spirit on this forum.  Have you tried the search feature?17 posts, all of them in one thread, all of them bit ching.....I hope you enjoy your short stay.My name's not Jim....
Reply:man 0 man i ran out of popcorn and beer gona push the pause button, run to the storeand maybe catch the  " and they live happily ever after " partidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tigidealarc 250/250 ac-dc tig #2 used for sticklincoln sp100hh125dual arbor grinder polisher30 yrs of hand tools52 pitch blocks 6p-26prake gauge -pitch gaugeG&D prop repair 918-207-6938Hulbert,okla 74441
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749Bet this get locked out pretty soon........
Reply:I'll tell you right now, the "zen" of design comes from experience.   Proper schooling, will reduce the time needed, but experience is the primary factor, especially in something like what you propose to do.There are several things to consider, in your "project".   First, obviously, is strength.   Second is flexibility, too little is just as bad as too much.   Third is fatigue.   Reading thru your various posts on the other place, it didn't take me long to figure out you have little enough knowledge, and experience, to have absolutely no concept of the engineering needed.   Plus not having the skills necessary to actually do the job (What cutting torch should I buy?)    I deliberately did not offer any advice on the previous thread for this reason.    Understand, I am not afraid of lawyers, I am not afraid of risks.   I have probably taken far more risks, over the years, than you will in your whole life.   Many others here, and on the other board, can probably say the same thing.   HOWEVER,,,,,    I have not EVER put innocent people at risk,,,,,  only myself, my only well-being, only my own financials, and only certain customers, owner operators, who understood the risks.    It's not a legal issue, it's a moral issue.  Think about that one for a moment.   The point is, anybody who's anybody, increases the scope of the jobs, as their skills and knowledge increases, you don't go from building a welding cart one day to completely re-engineering a trailer the next day.   Reading your threads   (what cutting torch should I buy??)  that's exactly what you are trying to do.I will also note,,,,,,   as far as taking risks, being "can do" people ....Columbus was already a competent ship captain and navigator, before he sailed to America.The Wright brothers, spent five to ten years, experimenting with various designs, practicing with wings, practicing with gliders, figuring out how to control the thing (wing warping and distortion), before ever hanging a motor on a heavier-than-air machine.   They also did most of their experiments on a remote, windy beach, very unlikely to hurt or kill other people.   Do you have a 100 square mile ranch available, to drive on and over, with private roads, to insure your design will work?????Even the space programs, the astronauts go thru years of education, years of experiments, before ever going into orbit, or to the moon.   Same for the people controlling the launches.   Monkeys and dogs were sent up first, they didn't all survive, but knowledge was gained.   There was a couple tragic accidents, but again, knowledge was gained, and proceedures changed.    That all being said, I have no issues, consulting with qualified engineers, anytime I need to build something, outside of my experience.   Also, some of these same engineers, have no problem consulting with me, concerning future repair issues, fatigue problems, weld standards.   The important thing, is know your limitations, and don't be ashamed to ask for, and accept, better and more pertinent help if needed.   Just changing forums, and finding somebody who agrees with your plan, isn't the way to do it.  Last edited by jsfab; 01-14-2010 at 03:45 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by kraytheOh and I should add one more thing. The fact that on both forums people arent able to answer some rather simple deflection questions is really worrying. I have gotten a book on mechanical engineering so perhaps I can answer them in time myself. I guess a lot of people go with the "try it and if it doesnt break go with it" methodology. So the answer to the original question is that there isnt any Zen of design among the hobbyists here or on the internet. Its just a mantter of replicating other people's recipies and or pure guessing and then dissing those that are successful and develop something new.
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749HAHAHAHA!!You gettin' on Motor City Motors anytime soon, Alfred??