12rc vs 12 vs

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hi,    could use some help here guys. i bought a ln 25 aprox 10-12 yrs ago. For a preditor i had, i was runnin flux core through it. Myself nor the welding shop could get quality welds with it. Also had my uncle try it [38 yrs welding] he had no luck with it. Jumipng ahead to today i want to purchase on or the other on firday,but wich on?  I will use mostly for structural,repair, and pipe [gas pressure, water,] i want QUALITY WELDS.  can i get them with the 12vs? i like the idea of the 300-400 ft. distance from the welder. and the single lead. But i like the adjustibility of the 12 rc right at the feader.    any thoughts ?   tks benny
Reply:Hello Benny, suprised to hear of your experience with the LN-25, that is generally not a typical outcome for one of those feeders. Now to your present question, having the ability to adjust wire speed at the point of work can certainly be nice and can be accomplished at a considerable distance away by using the appropriate extensions, probably not 300 to 400 feet reliably(due to voltage/resistance drop) but certainly a pretty good distance away from your power source and you would need to have both the welding lead and the control wire to keep track of and protect. Your other choice wouldn't allow for the same amount of adjustabilty but would be much less prone to damage that would take you out of the welding game. I have used the 12vs on structural using FCAW gas-shielded wire doing structural upgrades on roof girders, worked really nicely in conjunction with Trailblazer 302s. I've included a photo from this job to give you an idea. A bit more for your consideration. Best regards, Allan Attached Imagesaevald
Reply:VS feeders are usually used with machines that don't have a built in contactor OR  straight CC machines. You need one on engine drives like a Bobcat thats CC/CV but has no contactor, or a straight CC machine like an SA200. They work best with a CV powersource as opposed to CC powersources. It is posible to run a VS feeder on a machine thats set up for a remote, but you won't use the remote function of the machine. On a CV power source they run fine.VS feeders on a straight CC machine is tough. Usually they only work well with large size FC wires in spray, flat and horizontal. Vertical, overhead and shortarc with small solid wire is a PITA.RC feeders can only be used on machines that have the built in contactor and the remote option, like Trailblazers. All they really are is a heavy duty portable version of a standard mig feeder..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW gave you good info. As far as weld quality, I have used both VS and RC feeders alot, and you can get very good welds with either. I have and prefer the RC and it seems to feed wire smoother than the VS..............................."Look Good Doing It"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply:hi,  so u guys think the rc is the way to go?      benny
Reply:Originally Posted by benny bhi,    could use some help here guys. i bought a ln 25 ........................... I will use mostly for structural,repair, and pipe [gas pressure, water,] i want QUALITY WELDS.  can i get them with the 12vs? i like the idea of the 300-400 ft. distance from the welder. and the single lead. But i like the adjustibility of the 12 rc right at the feader.    any thoughts ?   tks benny
Reply:Hello Rhyno, you are slightly inaccurate with your description of the capabilities of the LN-25 and the 12 VS, either one of these feeders can be supplied with either CV or CC. They will most likely operate better when supplied with CV, yet they will operate very adequately for many applications when using CC. The main differences when using these feeders for structural code welding is when the welding is being done with CV the processes fall under a prequalified status, if CC is used you will need to qualify a welding procedure prior to performing any structural code welding. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by RhynoThe 12 RC will only be able to be run with a machine with a 14 pin connection plus the welding leads.  You will have Wire Speed (or Amps) and Voltage adjusted at the box.-Rhyno
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldHello Rhyno, you are slightly inaccurate with your description of the capabilities of the ......... Allan
Reply:Rhino, it pretty much sounds as if I have offended you, wan't my intent, yet having said that. I have operated the LN-25 hooked up to CC with mild steel solid wire, SS solid wire, self-shielded flux-cored wires(NR211, Fabshield 21B, NR-232, ESAB 8, and likely a few others). Have also used it with various gas-shielded flux-cored wires(Corex/Versatile, Lincoln/Outershield 71, TriMark/777, Select Arc wires, Esab wires, and a few others)  using either CO2 shielding or 75/25 shielding as required by the specific wire manufacturer. I will not argue the fact that any of these wires will run with more versatility on a CV power source, I do disagree with folks who say that they cannot be made to run adequately with CC current when the parameters are set correctly(in particular, self-shielded wires require much tighter parameters than the same wires when operated on CV). Limitations are certainly involved when you are using one of these feeders on CC, solid wires will not act the same as when operated from a CV source, in particular the steel solid wires that are being run in short-circuiting mode will definitely not operate as well from a CC source as those being done with CV. Yet, if you are operating in spray they are fairly comparable. Gas-shielded flux-cored wires, to a large extent, are designed to run in a spray-arc mode of transfer, they are much less susceptible to varying from this mode due to the fluxing agents contained in them. When they are run within their stated parameters they will operated as designed whether operated on CV or CC. I'll stand by what I said regarding the LN-25 and the 12VS. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldRhino, it pretty much sounds as if I have offended you, wan't my intent, yet having said that. I have operated the LN-25 hooked up to CC with mild steel solid wire, SS solid wire, self-shielded flux-cored wires(NR211, Fabshield 21B, NR-232, ESAB 8, and likely a few others). Have also used it with various gas-shielded flux-cored wires(Corex/Versatile, Lincoln/Outershield 71, TriMark/777, Select Arc wires, Esab wires, and a few others)  using either CO2 shielding or 75/25 shielding as required by the specific wire manufacturer. I will not argue the fact that any of these wires will run with more versatility on a CV power source, I do disagree with folks who say that they cannot be made to run adequately with CC current when the parameters are set correctly(in particular, self-shielded wires require much tighter parameters than the same wires when operated on CV). Limitations are certainly involved when you are using one of these feeders on CC, solid wires will not act the same as when operated from a CV source, in particular the steel solid wires that are being run in short-circuiting mode will definitely not operate as well from a CC source as those being done with CV. Yet, if you are operating in spray they are fairly comparable. Gas-shielded flux-cored wires, to a large extent, are designed to run in a spray-arc mode of transfer, they are much less susceptible to varying from this mode due to the fluxing agents contained in them. When they are run within their stated parameters they will operated as designed whether operated on CV or CC. I'll stand by what I said regarding the LN-25 and the 12VS. Best regards, Allan
Reply:Alaln- Originally Posted by aevaldEDIT: Rhino, I should have said that I disagree with your statement where you said that CV was for wire and CC was for stick and Tig. Because that IS an inaccuracy, you CAN use CC for running wire as long as you qualify the welding procedure if you are using it in a code application....
Reply:Hello again Rhyno, I really don't like to participate in threads where I have obviously offended someone, that's not how I would like to be or operate. Don't have time right now to discuss, disprove, or otherwise argue points, I actually agree with some of your statements whether you see that or not. When I get a bit more time I'll post up a whole bunch of combinations, scenarios, and pictures to cover the many points that have been brought up here. I do have access to plenty of different machines, feeders, wires, etc. I think one of the basic questions to this thread has to do with equipment options, there are numerous CC/CV portable feeders available, CV portable too(RC 12 for example), there are also some CC portable feeders(LN-22). New technology supports CV as a better choice when that option is available, yet some don't have the luxury of having that choice so you can still get feeders that have an option for operating on CC.     I will certainly include plenty of pictures and scenarios to support the use of either option that we have been discussing, I will learn as much about this as possibly others and yourself might. I would rather our discussion was more on a "this is what I contributed and this is what you have contributed type of ground" but that's obviously not the current situation. Regardlesss of where this thread ultimately ends up, I will learn, others will learn, and you will likely learn. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldHello again................. I would rather our discussion was more on a "this is what I contributed and this is what you have contributed type of ground" but that's ............ I will learn, others will learn, ............... Allan