Are TIG and Plasma consumables like printer ink

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I am trying to make up my mind between a Everlast 205 and Longevity WA 160PI.  Looking at the consumables that come with them it may be like  printer manufacurers who sell you low cost machines and make money on the ink.Does anyone know if TIG and plasma torch consumables for either machine can be bought locally or do you have to buy theirs ??  If you need a quick part, It is good to know that you can buy it at a local store.
Reply:Don't know about Plasma, but most Tig torch consumables are interchangeable.  Your collar, tips and other items are all the same.  Just depends on the size of the torch, same as your Mig set up.I am tired of Ketchup, I want the Gravy...
Reply:Most of the Chinese import plasma systems are equipped with a Chinese copy of a 25 year old Esab PT31 torch design. The consumables are very old technology....and you can purchase reasonably well copied replacement parts from a variety of sources at a low cost. None of the consumables will last very long when cutting thicker materials, or drag cutting....or piercing. You don't pay much for these consumables.....and they don't last long...therefore if you carefully looked at the cost per foot of cut on a given material....and compared it to modern torch technology (such as a Hypertherm Powermax style torch)......you would find your costs are actually higher.....due to slower cut speeds, more secondary work cleaning up parts with a grinder, and more consumables used.So, to answer the question.....yes, consumables are somewhat like printer ink in that the manufacturer likes to sell them and make money. However, some consumables/torches have advanced technology that utilizes all of the laws of physics to prioduce the best combination of cut quality, cut speed, maximum thickness and long life......so from that perspective they are not all the same.The advantage of the Chinese low cost imports? They are cheap to buy....which is good for the small shop that needs plasma, but perhaps cannot afford a major brand. The risks? Does not perform as well (speed, thickness, consumable life, cut quality), there are concerns about parts availability over time, and if you expand and use the plasma as a necessary tool to earn a living....is it worth the money you saved to not have the same level of reliability and factory/local support that you get with a better engineered unit?Those are questions that....when answered help you choose between low cost imports.....and older torch and consumable technology...or higher cost units with new technology and performance.Jim Colt
Reply:Hi ace999 Jim and Partagas summed it up nicely. But much will depend on what you plan to use the unit for. If for hobby or occasional use you can properly get by with a combo unit nicely. If small business a combo unit may still work for you but realize if one function goes down on the unit many times the other functions also go with it and now you no longer have a working shop.  If your a moderate size shop that depends on your equipment and downtime is a loss of money and may cost you a customer if they go elsewhere. Which is why you'll normally see only brand name equipment in a shop that depends on that equipment for a living. Plus the shops have multiple equipment  not multi functional equipment. And yes the brand name equipment may cost you more on the initial equipment cost!! But for overall costs it will be less.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:Originally Posted by jimcoltMost of the Chinese import plasma systems are equipped with a Chinese copy of a 25 year old Esab PT31 torch design. The consumables are very old technology....and you can purchase reasonably well copied replacement parts from a variety of sources at a low cost. None of the consumables will last very long when cutting thicker materials, or drag cutting....or piercing. You don't pay much for these consumables.....and they don't last long...therefore if you carefully looked at the cost per foot of cut on a given material....and compared it to modern torch technology (such as a Hypertherm Powermax style torch)......you would find your costs are actually higher.....due to slower cut speeds, more secondary work cleaning up parts with a grinder, and more consumables used.So, to answer the question.....yes, consumables are somewhat like printer ink in that the manufacturer likes to sell them and make money. However, some consumables/torches have advanced technology that utilizes all of the laws of physics to prioduce the best combination of cut quality, cut speed, maximum thickness and long life......so from that perspective they are not all the same.The advantage of the Chinese low cost imports? They are cheap to buy....which is good for the small shop that needs plasma, but perhaps cannot afford a major brand. The risks? Does not perform as well (speed, thickness, consumable life, cut quality), there are concerns about parts availability over time, and if you expand and use the plasma as a necessary tool to earn a living....is it worth the money you saved to not have the same level of reliability and factory/local support that you get with a better engineered unit?Those are questions that....when answered help you choose between low cost imports.....and older torch and consumable technology...or higher cost units with new technology and performance.Jim Colt
Reply:I am very aware of the units with blowback trafimet style torches....which by the way are a copy  of an 18 year old Hypertherm design....todays Hypertherm technology includes coaxial flow and conical flow technology. I did state that "most of the chinese imports" use a copy of the PT31 torch design, and I will stand behind that. Perhaps the specific systems in this string do not use the PT31....but most Chinese imports do.As far as consumable life goes....everyone tries to claim longest life. I have personally been involved with apples to apples benchmark testing of virtually every air plasma system....tested under identical conditions. Because of that.....we will stand behind our consumable life claims.Ultimately everyone chooses the system based on criteria. It could be purchase price, it could be color, it could be ergonomics of the torch...or it could be long term reliability or operating cost. No one brand will win them all! Fortunately.....we at Hypertherm win most of them!Jim Colt
Reply:Jim,You said: "Fortunately.....we at Hypertherm win most of them!"I doubt it,  since Hyperthem doesn't offer a tig welding unit with their plasma cutters.  That's the whole point of the thread...these are multipurpose units.  To buy individual units from lets say Hypertherm, and oh say Miller, the customer would be looking at spending around 6000.00.  When looking at that and comparing the list price of $1449.99 of the PM 205, you would have to do a lot of cutting to overcome the price difference.But also, its a little funny, that  Hobart and Lincoln are using various forms of the trafimet style torch on some of their smaller units.For Ace, the opening poster in this thread, the trafimet parts are available locally in many areas of the country. Not all places may have them but there are more and more places making them available.   Any major parts with any supplier are not available without special order usually.  The tig  torch consumables are interchangeable with weldcraft  wp 17/18/26 and are among the most common parts available anywhere with the most economical prices available.Last edited by lugweld; 03-11-2010 at 12:15 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:The point of the thread was a comparison of consumables to printer ink.....or wondering if consumables are a commodity (all the same, just different prices).Miller plasma systems have been using Hypertherm torches for almost 20 years. Lincoln has their own torch design that was developed by a former Hypertherm engineer....and succesfully sidestepped Hypertherms patents!When customers choose a low cost combination unit....their highest value criteria is price. I understand there is a market for low priced units.Best regards, Jim
Reply:Jim, Again, check their latest offerings.  I have seen trafimet on both Lincoln and Hobart brands lately.http://www.hobartwelders.com/products/plasma/http://www.shop.com/Powertorch+P20+P...09171-p+.xhtmlThe poster was asking about tig AND Plasma consumables...not just plasma.Last edited by lugweld; 03-11-2010 at 12:13 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I have as well.....Trafimet makes a good torch! Jim
Reply:Dont know why people disagree with a plasma expert that has worked in the field of plasma for more years than i know.Jim was giving his opinion on the plasma for the OP as its his field of expertise.Hypertherm woud have a more scientific way of testing/comparing plasma cutters and torches than any importer.  Not just cutting a piece on a bench and saying thats good or better.Hypertherm has been around longer than importers and are plasma experts.  That why they dont make a TIG.And from my PowerMax 45, the consumables are a little over a year old with considerable cut time ( and use for some production work and a little abuse and piercce ) and am still using them today.Over that time the kerf width grew 0.2mm and cut quality was almost idetical to a new nozzle and electrode.Im sure ive saved a heap of money on consumables too!
Reply:Not disagreeing with the claims he made, but questioning them.  The point is, that the thread is about 2 specific units and their consumable pricing, and he brought in irrelevant, other brand information to confuse the issue. He has expertise in Hypertherm plasma, not everyone's.  He knows how to get the most out of his machine, just as other manufacturers know how to get it out of theirs.  In fact, if you will recall the oxy fuel/plasma thread he hot into, it showed his opinion wasn't infallible.  I have recently watched a hypertherm torch on a track cutter with a Miller plasma cutter give way less than stellar performance, even with advice from the dealer and going through a double fist full of consumables in all sorts of configurations.He has been personally involved in testing, no doubt....Hypertherm testing (one could infer that from the context  I think).      Engineers are notorious for manufacturing comparative tests by designing carefully controlled testing parameters whereby their product will shine...Just as ESAB makes a public claim against Hypertherm, I am sure they (ESAB)  can support that information out of their own test data, which they claim includes TOTAL consumables and factoring the price of swirl rings, cups, electrodes etc, over their life into a price per foot cut, not just electrodes and tips. Attached ImagesLast edited by lugweld; 03-11-2010 at 02:52 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Funny...that chart from Esab is quite a bit different than ours from Hypertherm!  And it is worthless without material thickness, power level and cut speed....kind of typical. I could provide you with a spreadsheet of all Hypertherm systems of cost....with every component included....air cost, electric cost per kW, consumable life, and dozens of other factors that are necessary to develop those calculations. It compares the different Hypertherm systems to each other...not to competitive systems....and it is real data developed in cutting situations...not in a marketing department. Consumable cost per foot of cut on 1/2" plate with a Hypertherm 1650 is $.038  (thats 3.8 cents per foot)  not the 11 cents per foot on the chart in Lugwelds ad, I mean post!And while I like to help all members with their plasma cutting issues regardless of brand, clearly I am more knowledgable about Hypertherm product as compared to other brands of plasma.....I'll stay away from logos and blatant advertising....a good product will sell itself.Any way Lug, I'm glad you think the way you do!  Thats what makes life interesting for all of us. I'll just stick with my old gray clunkers with the majority of the rest of the world. Our company focuses on our core competency...thermal cutting.....we are not interested in welding.JimLast edited by jimcolt; 03-11-2010 at 04:23 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweld     Engineers are notorious for manufacturing comparative tests by designing carefully controlled testing parameters whereby their product will shine.
Reply:Jim,No one said anything about Hypertherm being a clunker.  I did not anyway.  What I do point out is that marketing is always part of sales.  If Hypertherm has ever printed a single brochure, then you cannot  claim they "sell themselves".Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:God , i wish i had an Everlast powerTIG 250EX and a HyperTherm Powermax 30 or 45.........Game Over........End.......Nirvana............but anythang from either company is Awesome , Luvm' both.        thermal arc 252i  -  millermatic 350P -   miller XMT, cp300ts, 30a 22a feeders, buttload of other millers, handfull of lincolns, couple of esabs  -   Hypertherm 1250 G3
Reply:Lug, I guess you misunderstood. I said I will steer away from logos and blatant advertising ....meaning on these sites...as I enjoy helping people out with plasma cutting. I did not say that Hypertherm would steer away from it....we have a very competent marrketing department and some of the best sales literature in the business. But thats not what I'm here for, rather, I like to enlighten people on the good and the bad as far as features and performance...then let the systems sell themselves! Brochures and flashy stuff are on the Hypertherm and Thermadyne and other web sites...shouldn't be here (my opinion)Regardless we are getting way of track of the original posters requests.....and for that I apologize!Best regards, Jim Colt
Reply:Originally Posted by jimcolt... However, some consumables/torches have advanced technology that utilizes all of the laws of physics ....
Reply:Actually what we all want to do is rewrite the laws of physics. Imagine what we could then do with a plasma torch!Really though....has anyone wondered how a 25,000 degree F plasma arc can pass through a tiny orifice in a copper nozzle....and the nozzle can actually last for thousands of feet of cut? Is it magic, or are we pushing the laws of physics.If anyone is interested.....we could start a new thread and talk about the "boundary layer" of un-ionized gas that is centrifically placed on the outer wall of the nozzle bore, insulating the copper both thermally and electrically from the arc, and the role the swirl ring plays in creating the centrifuge as well as controlling cut edge angularity. Thats what I'm talkin bout......physics! I wonder how much of this the guys that copy old torches really understand?Jim
Reply:Originally Posted by jimcolt... or are we pushing the laws of physics.
Reply:I have a PM205 I just bought.  I was dinking around and screwed up my #6 TIG cup.  I was able to go down to the local shop and pick up a Weldcraft cup for a few bucks.  In looking, it appears that the PM205 parts are pretty common.  If they weren't, I would have bought one.Just my 2 cents and I don't weld for a living but am trying to learn as a hobby.
Reply:Wow, This is deepI bought my HF 95136 to cut metal with but I see now I will have to back to school to learn the laws of physics.
Reply:always been told and from first hand owning tools that do more then thing. when you buy a tool that was designed to do one thing only vs a "do all". becuase when they designed no matter what brand they are good "try" to shoot to making the best they can no matter what.2-Lincoln idealarc 250/250, lincoln 225 ac/dc welder, lincweld ac 180c, hobart handler 210, hobart stickmate lx 235/160, Hypertherm Powermax30local 26 I.B.E.W Electrician
Reply:Much of the circuitry is shared in a multiprocess machine  and would be similar no matter what....No one would doubt the capability and performance of an XMT Miler series which can handle lots of demands and do it quite well.  In an inverter, changing processes are a lot simpler thing than it would be in a transformer machine.  Are the Multiprocess machines as good as a dedicated unit?  That depends upon many factors, most of which do not include the machine itself but rather the need and the application of the machine.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Lug, The circuitry is similar in that AC line power is converted to DC.....and output is either current or voltage controlled between stick, tig and plasma. The problem lies within fine tuning each process, as each needs somewhat different levels of current control in terms of voltage/amperage curves, current ramp up and current ramp down, as well as co-ordinating current ramps with gas flows (plasma)....which is absolutely critical to consumable life. Even inverter power supplies have transformers and chokes...which are magnetic devices...and must be designed to match the output requirements in order to be efficient.In order to make each process work to the utmost capability....the power supply designs are fundamentally different. (I'm sure there will be arguments on that statement!) The combo machines are a very nice tool for someone that does not need the highest level of performance of each of the processes...rather, they are on a budget and have occasional need for each.The reason the big manufacturers don't like to build combo machines is certainly not driven by the market...rather it is driven by the fact that engineers that develop these processes and equipment are driven to continuously improve their product performance with each new design....while attempting to stay within a bearable price range, and if you have to take a step backwards in performance to meet a market demand....that is a tough pill to swallow.I think the combo machines are awesome.....I'm not knocking the idea at all! They fit the price points and requirements of many users that don't have the needs or the budget to buy 3 separate machines. There is however a difference in performance...unfortunately it comes at a price!Jim ColtIn other words "Jack of all trades, master of none".
Reply:Originally Posted by jimcoltLug, The circuitry is similar in that AC line power is converted to DC.....and output is either current or voltage controlled between stick, tig and plasma. The problem lies within fine tuning each process, as each needs somewhat different levels of current control in terms of voltage/amperage curves, current ramp up and current ramp down, as well as co-ordinating current ramps with gas flows (plasma)....which is absolutely critical to consumable life. Even inverter power supplies have transformers and chokes...which are magnetic devices...and must be designed to match the output requirements in order to be efficient.In order to make each process work to the utmost capability....the power supply designs are fundamentally different. (I'm sure there will be arguments on that statement!) The combo machines are a very nice tool for someone that does not need the highest level of performance of each of the processes...rather, they are on a budget and have occasional need for each.The reason the big manufacturers don't like to build combo machines is certainly not driven by the market...rather it is driven by the fact that engineers that develop these processes and equipment are driven to continuously improve their product performance with each new design....while attempting to stay within a bearable price range, and if you have to take a step backwards in performance to meet a market demand....that is a tough pill to swallow.I think the combo machines are awesome.....I'm not knocking the idea at all! They fit the price points and requirements of many users that don't have the needs or the budget to buy 3 separate machines. There is however a difference in performance...unfortunately it comes at a price!Jim Colt
Reply:Lug, you are right about my knowledge of tig.....I can tig two pieces of metal together but I am not a pro. However, I have used the plasma function on more than one combo machine. They sever metal kind of like I weld with a tig!  I have seen them improve over time, and I suspect they will continue to improve. I'm not necessarily knocking any part of the combo machines. They have their market niche just as many others do. So....to clarify from my perspective...there is a performance difference with the plasma part of the combo machines....I am not qualified to comment on the welding side.....although I am very familiar with DC power supply technology, droopers, scr's, choppers, and inverters switched by field effect transistors as well as insulated gate bipolar transistors (Fet's and IGBT's)....and I am quite sure that one power supply cannot produce the exact voltage amperage curve required for three processes. The units that I have dissected share output rectifiers as well as current transformers.Jim