1/8th inch weld project with a lincoln 135..

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My paint skills are lacking (would love someone if they could send me an old autocad program!!) Anyway, here is our current project for class...Red & blue sections are 1/8th" thickness... I'm supposed to use a lincoln 135 welder to fill these channels with weld bead.... problem is the weld bead won't wet out.... at all. according to the unit with straight Co2 this unit's chart is X'd out with those parameters indicating not to weld it.... Is there a way I can get the puddle to wet out so I can make a decent bead on this project? worse part is their 20% duty cycle
Reply:google sketch-up is free.
Reply:Looks similar to what we did with basic angle, except we just worked on one position at a time. To fill these 100% and get good welds won't be easy. My guess is it's mostly to get you lots of practice running beads for a basic intro class, and less about penetration, so thats a help. You don't list your wire size. If you run a smaller wire, you can crank up the wire speed and get a flatter weld. If I had to do this, I'd probably run .023-025 wire, use the highest voltage setting I could and set the wire speed to match and go from there. A bit of preheat would help, especially if you stop and leave it to come back later. If you just run with it, it should heat up fine on it's own after 2 or 3 beads. I'd use 75/25 myself, but the CO2 will help some with penetration.One big thing that will help is ti besure to run the beads in the right location. Basically you will either end up running V joints or fillets. If you aim at the toe of the previous weld and try to get the beads to overlap 50% or more that will help level out the runs. If you aim to run beads so the toes of each touch, you'll have a tough time doing this well. It's easier to show than explain..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW thanks for the reply. we're using .025 wire, we're supposed to do a 50/50 overlap on the beads, but it's tough since the bead is so cold. it's really weird in my mind to try to learn how to lay a bead when you don't have good pen and a cold weld. I'll shoot some photos during class this Thursday to show you the carnage... settings on the lincoln are G voltage, usually around a 5.5 wire speed.
Reply:never mind.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:Is G  the highest setting on the voltage dial? If not, turn the voltage up and the wire speed if neccessary .ESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:Without picts it's tough to say. There are a lot of things that might change the bead. Push vs pull,  faster/slower travel speed, more voltage if possible, as well as playing with the wire speed. Some are combinations, such as turn down the wire speed a bit, pull and move slightly slower,  Or maybe pushing and moving faster with a bit more wire speed.Last edited by DSW; 03-22-2010 at 09:47 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:voltage is at max, wire speeds 5 out of 9 pretty much. i tried pull vs push, tried weaves, just seems like the beads sitting ontop with little pen. trying to figure out how to get more heat into the bead to allow it to wet out and look better then just a rope. I'll update once I have pictures. but I'm wondering if this welder just doesnt have the cohones to do 1/8"
Reply:In all honesty that machine is maxed at best on 1/8" with gas. All the higher amp (130-140amp) 110v migs are, regardless of brand. Anything that decreases the input power will degrade performance from there, use of an extension cord, too much draw on the line etc.Those little migs are great for sheet metal, but you have to recognise their limits.I looked at lincolns site. they have several "lincoln 135" machines. I'm not sure what one you are using exactly. The Promig 135 doesn't look to have a voltage higher than "D" so I'm guessing that not it. The SP135 plus looks like it goes up to "J" and the recomended settings for 12g looks like J-8 with 75/25 or 14g at H-7 on CO2. Knowing the actual machine would help to look up the manual and see what they suggest..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I believe it was the SP-135. J sounds about right, instructors assistant suggested going from 7 down to 5 for the wire feed. Like i said, when we looked inside the panel, 12ga was crossed out as a non-option or not recommended. Making thing's worse, me and three other stalls are on the same line different outlets, so when two of us get going at once, it snaps crackles n pops sadly.... at which point i wait for the other guy to finish his bead.Half tempted to cheat and use a 6013 electrode with the smaw..... But then I wouldn't be learning how to use a mig ....
Reply:Originally Posted by Crawfordvoltage is at max, wire speeds 5 out of 9 pretty much. i tried pull vs push, tried weaves, just seems like the beads sitting ontop with little pen. trying to figure out how to get more heat into the bead to allow it to wet out and look better then just a rope. I'll update once I have pictures. but I'm wondering if this welder just doesnt have the cohones to do 1/8"
Reply:I'd like to learn to use my little 3200 (same thing about) better too. Right now I just use .30innercore on most 1/8" angle iron projects, like a battery box for a little tractor for ex.  And! it probably isn't good welding but, using an old Generac 5500 generator  for power I welded every  saddle cut  2 7/8" x 1/4" upright to the top rail which was 2 1/8" thinner stuff on near 500 feet of horse fence.  It was what I had and I didn't know you couldn't do it.  To get a little penetration I learned to  bevel the edge of the 1/4" stuff real deep to a sharp edge more or less and then cleaning everything of paint, dirt etc I turned it to "D" and did it... it is mediocre really but looks good after I clean it up some and it holds well.That is why I wanted the old WeldanPower 225, it welds with 6011 real good (thanks to Joker and Mark who came over to help put it thru paces we KNOW it works good). I'm hoping to do the next 900 feet a little better. Some of the finished fencing all done with a little box store 110v Lincoln welder. I was quoted $29 /foot labor and materials ... that was an inspirational bid for me to give it a try Attached ImagesLincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelson1-I'm confused by your description--are you simply trying to attach 1/8" angle stock toflat or literally fill the angles full of weld?2-In either case of the above, it is do-able.The pics of this SP 125 work and setup might help you.3-Used Airgas 'steelmix'--a proprietary mix, that runs like a 90/10 mix. It lowers the voltage required for the arc--in half. IOW it can theoretically double the heat output of the welder at a given setting. In larger, 220v  MIGS, it allows for easy transition into spray.The SP 125 doesn't have the poop to do this, which is still okay.papalion - you have way more patients then me my friend, after the third bead of this 1/8th inch stuff I was questioning why bother & ended up going back to some smaller scrap sheet metal filling holes & practicing lap joints.4-Example shown is 1/2" dia. wrought steel ring with 1/8" thick steel washer welded to it,with the actual panel settings used. .024 ER70S6 steel wire used. 25 amp, low voltage drop power circuit. SP 125 has a 10 gauge, 50' cord to minimize voltage drop, which is whollymore important than the many of the professional experts recognize and newbiespay no mind to---since of course--Everybody 'knows' how to weld. http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1269312774http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1269312788
Reply:Originally Posted by CrawfordOur instructor wants us to fill one side in flat position, another side in horizontal, and the final side vertical. Personally i'd rather just continue practicing 3F with 7018 as I still need help with that, but I gotta fill this thing up before i do anything...
Reply:Originally Posted by DSW Knowing the actual machine would help to look up the manual and see what they suggest.
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonWell, since he's the instructor, then he must be able to show you the machine setupto accomplish this. That's 'why' he's the paid, professional instructor!In addition to my suggestions above, (and hopefully not treading on the toes of the instructor) the 120v migs are extremely sensitive to dross buildup on the nose of the contact tips. When this occurs it will mightily interfere with the arc and the resulting weld.The above just might have a bit to do with your problems. Solution is to keep pulling, prying, knocking it off; and stopping during the bead--if you see this occurring.I use custom hardened nozzle reamers for every size of MIG nozzle/tip I have.The tips are consumables and need to be replaced on a regular basis, along with the normalmachine maintenance and setup items.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Or just open the Door and look at the ChartCrawford,120v machines don't like Mill Scale- I know with my 135 Plus removing the mill scale really helps out. Make sure you prep the metal
Reply:Originally Posted by CrawfordOh, he did. He just cheated and used a fridge sized GMAW machine that's older then me....
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonDoing that is dead wrong. You're paying for instruction which he is not providing,therefore you have no use for him.Hold him to showing exactly how to set the machine up and do the taskto his satisfaction. That's instruction.
Reply:Just glancing at some of the machines off and on over the years I've noticed that some smaller machines list wire speeds of 40-400 ipm, 40-300, 30-500 and so on. It's interesting which ones list what for speeds. After all, no wire speed, no amps. Anyway here's what's on my mind. Regardless of the upper amps rating of any particular 120 volt machine, when you're running .023 solid you'd have to be humming at about 350 ipm to get 100 amps or there about. If, and only if, you happened to be using a machine that caps out at 300 ipm  you're only going to get about 85 amps regardless of the top end rating. For instance you'd have to move up to the next wire size to reap the benefit of a 140 amps machine that caps out at 300 ipm. So one machine is a 125 amp machine, another is a 135 amp machine and yet another is a 140, but what are the wire speed limits of each one and how do you arrive at max amps. Seems important to me. More important than setting it on a "7" on a dial.  A guy needs to know just what the numbers really relate to on the wire speed dial. Why in the heck they have numbers other than wire speed amazes me. Just what does 1 thru 10 or 0 thru 100 mean on a dial in terms of wire speed?Last edited by Sandy; 03-23-2010 at 12:34 AM."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:Originally Posted by SandySo one machine is a 125 amp machine, another is a 135 amp machine and yet another is a 140, but what are the wire speed limits of each one and how do you arrive at max amps. Seems important to me. More important than setting it on a "7" on a dial.  A guy needs to know just what the numbers really relate to on the wire speed dial. Why in the heck they have numbers other than wire speed amazes me. Just what does 1 thru 10 or 0 thru 100 mean on a dial in terms of wire speed?
Reply:Originally Posted by Crawford100% agree, was wondering what meant what myself the other day. I suppose one could figure out a little scale and create a chart but is it worth it? class is almost over and we aren't getting graded on these. Once I get a welder at home it's on like donkey kong... Neighbors will have to tear gas me out of the garage to get me to turn the machine off...
Reply:Sandy how do you know what amps the box is putting out with a wire size? Like .030 innercore it seems it is always too much speed.  Maybe I am using too heavy a wire for 1/8" projects?  Should I reload with lighter wire and use more speed maybe?Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:As Sandy mentioned and reminded people, WFS = amps.  And different machines have different top-end WFS limits.Keep in mind though, that the WFS/amps for a given wire diameter has a certain voltage that goes along with it.  Just because a machine has a wire feed motor that can supposedly spit out wire at 400 or 500 or 700 ipm or whatever doesn't necessarily mean that the machine can supply the needed voltage (the arc voltage) at that WFS and amperage to make it all work.fer instance, if the little 120V welder can spin the wire feed motor at 400 ipm that still doesn't mean it has the ooomph to try and run some 0.045 solid wire with CO2 gas at 125 ipm at 19V and 145 amps.  The machine will usually happily spit out 0.025 solid wire with CO2 (or C25 or similar) at 250 ipm and 17-19 volts at ~80 amps though.Just a reminder that -all- of the machine's 'capabilities' have to match-up for the task at hand for things to work out.PapaLion,In short-circuit transfer mode with solid steel wire (all the 'little' machines can usually do, no steel spray transfer mode there), here are some general numbers (right out the Lincoln literature), voltage numbers are for CO2 so drop that 1-2V for C25 ;0.025 wire = 100 - 250 ipm, 17-19V, 35-80 amps0.030 wire = 75-150-300 ipm, 17-18-22V, 35-70-130 amps0.035 wire = 100-150-250 ipm, 18-19-22V, 80-120-175 amps0.045 wire = 125-150-200 ipm, 19-20-21V, 145-165-200 ampsOne Miller reference says for solid steel short-circuit transfer;0.030 wire = 70-130 amps and 15-21 volts0.035 wire = 80-190 amps and 16-22 volts0.045 wire = 100-225 amps and 17-22 voltsThose numbers match up pretty darn close from the two sources (remember to allow or take into account the differening arc voltage with different shielding gases, CO2 vs C25 is a 1-2 volt difference lower for C25 for the same amps/WFS).Further, in the short-circuit transfer mode below the current saturation limit for the wire size while still in the linear WFS vs amp relationship of the wire, the following rough numbers apply;0.023 wire = 30-90 amps and 3.5 ipm/amp0.030 wire = 40-145 amps and 2.5 ipm/amp0.035 wire = 50-180 amps and 1.6 ipm/amp0.045 wire = 75-250 amps and 1 ipm/ampCurrent saturation for 0.030 solid wire (pushing it all the way into spray mode and the exponential part of the amps-vs-WFS relationship curve) is about 200-210 amps at 700 ipm.  The wire can't push more amps than that no matter what.  The linear part of the amps-vs-WFS curve tops out at about 120 amps for this size wire.For 0.035 solid wire, WFS vs amps is pretty linear up to about 200 amps, and then it enters into the exponential curve from 210 to 280 amps.  This wire size tops out at about 280 amps at 720 ipm.For 0.045 solid wire, linear range on the chart is about 120 to 270 amps, and then goes into the exponential part of the curve up to a top limit of 370 amps at 500 ipm.Want ESAB's recomendation for amps vs wire size in short-circuit GMAW?0.030 wire = 50-150 amps0.035 wire = 75-175 amps0.045 wire = 100-225 ampsFCAW is different values because it is a different wire.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by PapaLionSandy how do you know what amps the box is putting out with a wire size? Like .030 innercore it seems it is always too much speed.  Maybe I am using too heavy a wire for 1/8" projects?  Should I reload with lighter wire and use more speed maybe?thank you, Moonrise and Sandy.  I will need to absorb this info some, new ideas to me. But, for sure I want to know exactly what the speed really is on my little Lincoln don't I,  so I can figure some choices.  I have learned at ~hardknocksU~ to keep the tip clean whatever it takes, and to grind the material down some and no paint, oil etc... Since you clued me to Airgas selling a nice mix for Mig I'll go see my guy there who is patrient with me, and see what he can add.    Hoping Crawford finds some useful direction too.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Want to know what the what the WFS is?Just measure the time and the amount of wire that spits out at that time.  Pick a setting on the knob/dial.  Get timer/stopwatch ready and then GO.  Stop feeding wire after, hmmm, let's say 6 seconds.  Wait for wire to be electrically cold (we're not welding here, just measuring how much wire came out!   ), then measure how many inches of wire came out.  Multiply that number of inches times 10 (because we measured for 6 seconds and 6 seconds times 10 equals 60 seconds or one minute  ) and that is the WFS in ipm at that setting on the knob/dial.Repeat as desired at other numbers/letters on the knob/dial.  And you have measured the WFS of -your- machine.Yes, keep the contact tip clean and clean up the piece you want to weld.  Because you are trying to weld metal, after all, and not some rust or mill scale or paint or grease or stuff that is -not- clean shiny metal.    Some processes (like some 'stick' welds) can -tolerate- certain amounts of 'not metal', GMAW usually tolerates less 'not metal', and GTAW tolerates almost no 'not metal'.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...