any trouble getting argon cylinders refilled?

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Hi folks, I recently bought a very large argon tank from a local car shop with an Airgas sticker on it. The owner said it used to be a lease, will this keep me from getting it refilled at a local Airgas or do I have to take it to a smaller LWS?Also, how can I read the stamping on the cylinder's shoulder? If possible, I'd like to contact Airgas to make sure this isn't a stolen cylinder, and I would like to find out what the actual capacity of it is. By my estimations it's 5ft tall and roughly 8-10 inches in diameter.Miller Dynasty 200 DXeverything else Harbor Freight
Reply:more than likely they  (airgas) owns its (if it was a leased tank best thing would be call them and tell them you have have it but tell them . you bought it. im sure it that won't help get money back.but at least be honest so they don't think you stoleyou may have to go and ask the guy you bought from for a refundor they may let YOU lease that tankair gas  is hard to deal with in my area (i don't use them any more best of luck
Reply:Originally Posted by primeralHi folks, I recently bought a very large argon tank from a local car shop with an Airgas sticker on it. The owner said it used to be a lease, will this keep me from getting it refilled at a local Airgas or do I have to take it to a smaller LWS?
Reply:99% that the cylinder belongs to airgas, and the seller had no legal right to sell the cylinder.  My supplier (airgas) will not sell large cylinders.  I basically own my cylinders, and they are airgas cylinders.  However, it is not what it sounds like.  My father bought  life time leases on the cylinders that he was using back when Kennan's auto parts was servicing welding supplies.  Air products bought out Kennan's, but still honored the lifetime leases.  Then Airgas bought Air products, and even though my father is still alive, but out of the business so to speak.  Since I am a loyal customer they basically extended the lifetime lease to me.  However I can't sell the cylinders, and if I die or no longer need the cylinders they still are property of airgas, and are to be returned. Basically it just means that as long as I am alive and need the cylinders then I can use them without a yearly lease price.  I will be willing to bet that the cylinder you have is one that was left after the shop stopped dealing with airgas, or one that someone just stopped paying a lease on and it got over looked.  I would call airgas, and talk to them and explain the situation.  Hopefully you are in the clear, or atleast can get your money back for the cylinder.  Good luck.Last edited by Hammack_Welding; 06-22-2009 at 11:14 AM.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I agree that cylinder most likely belongs to airgas and not you, regardless if you gave money to someone for it.One thing may work for you. Take it in and just swap it out. From time to time I would borrow tanks from my buddy if I got jammed up on a weekend with a project and needed gas, usually O2 or acet for lots of heating or cutting. Frequently the tanks I'd grab would be partials and I'd swap them out and return full ones to him. I'd usually just go in tell them I need to swap the tank and have cash. Sometimes thats all it took. Other times they would want to know the account number and I'd just explain whats going on (that I borrowed the tank and want to give it back full) and again no problem. However on rare occasions at some branches the counter guy won't do anything without an account, I'd either call my buddy for the info, or just say, ok by if I couldn't reach him. I don't really have any issue any longer however. Now I have an account at the same company he uses, so I just give them my number. The fact I don't have any large bottle leases has never been a factor. I have a bottle with their name, I have and account, so I get a new same size tank. However I don't use airgas as my gas supplier.Last edited by DSW; 06-22-2009 at 11:41 AM.
Reply:In my dealings with airgas, they have always been really picky about cylinders. Call airgas (anonymously) to see if it's servicable. But my guess is, I think I would be taking it back to the guy I got it from.What does the neck ring say? If it's blank, like my argon, in the pics, your clear. If it says airgas, or any of the former LWS that airgas now owns, your SOL. If it's got a name like my oxygen you'll probably be ok too. As long as you don't mind the ocasional air strike.  Attached ImagesLast edited by fortyonethirty; 06-22-2009 at 11:48 AM.
Reply:Yeah,If you have it and its theirs, they CAN consider you to be in possesion of stolen property.Airgas IS hard to deal with.   I wanted to rent a 125 cubic foot cylinder of argon for a few months.  Not only did they start sending monthly rent statements,  They had 10$ addtiional in Hazmat fees and other "junk" items on top of the rent.  They said unless I leased it, they would impose the Hazmat fee monthly on the same bottle of Argon whether I filled it or not.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Airgas is funny I have one that is extremely easy to work with and one that is full of a$$holes that I have to deal with occasionally. But I have found that if you deal with them as in a business like manner they are easier to get along with. Just be straight up with them tell them what happened and what your expectations are. They may not be willing to fulfill all your expectations but this gives them a little room to wiggle and maybe work a deal. Would almost bet that you have to sign a new lease though and are out the money you paid the shop but you could maybe get the lease for less so that they now know where the bottle is.
Reply:I agree I have seen a lot of airgas stores that are on both sides of the spectrum as far as customer service.  The one I do my business with I drive an extra 20 miles to do business with, but the two closer ones I refuse to buy from.  It has more to do with the people working in the store than the company.  I've had some stores that will fight you over what they can and can not do, while other stores pay the same thing no attention and do what they want.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Primeral, I have had good luck working with AirGas. I think it helps if you are already doing business with them. I bought my first welder with all accessories from them. At that time, they told me if I found a bottle at a flea market or yard sale, even if out of date, they would swap with me for a full one. Recently I saw 2 bottles for sale on CL. I called the store manager to ask if he would swap them and he said he would, just be sure to see him when I came in. They turned out to be 200 cf, and I only wanted 125 cf, so maybe he came out ahead. But I'm pretty sure the bottles had been leased at one time. I think they have a fair amount of discretion in taking bottles.When I was selling farm supplies, we had a saying that we would give you the baby chicks if you promised to buy all the feed from us. I expect they are the same. They really want to sell you the gas, the welder, the rods, the helmet, the gloves, etc. Taking a bottle from a good (or potentially good) Customer is good business. Since it has their sticker, it is most likely theirs. They can put it back into their inventory so what does it really cost them? They aren't getting any income from that bottle now anyway.I agree to call the store manager and explain the situation. If he works with you, then do all the business you can with them. If they won't refill it, and no one else will either, then you have already lost what you paid.Last edited by wb4rt; 06-22-2009 at 09:34 PM.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Gents, thanks for your replies. I will contact my local Airgas and explain the situation to them.I emailed the guy who sold me the cylinder to find out exactly where it came from. He said not to worry, just remove the sticker blah blah ... I don't really want to take that chance. HahaAbout getting it traded out, this cylinder is pretty large. I wonder if anyone will have anything to trade with meMiller Dynasty 200 DXeverything else Harbor Freight
Reply:I my area , Airgas only sells 80cu ft. bottles. The one you have my have been on a lease. Go to your local Airgas and fessup, maybe he will work with you. Connecticut
Reply:My two cents is that you give them no information about how you obtained the cylinder. Its none of their business. You own this thing now. If it was stolen, or the leasing party decided to stop paying, then Airgas will need to send them to collection and go through that legal avenue. You own a cylinder and congratulations.Bill
Reply:Originally Posted by WHughesMy two cents is that you give them no information about how you obtained the cylinder. Its none of their business. You own this thing now. If it was stolen, or the leasing party decided to stop paying, then Airgas will need to send them to collection and go through that legal avenue. You own a cylinder and congratulations.Bill
Reply:It could have been like one of my bottles.  I owned all of mine and had them swapped at the local Airgas.  They all say Airgas on them now eventhough I owned the originals.  As far as I'm concerned, these are mine.  I don't give a **** who's sticker is on them.
Reply:There is a difference between a stick-on label and stampings or raised casting letters on the ring. Some companies, like Airco, supposedly never sold any bottles so any with the Airco name stamped or cast on it will be considered theirs unless something proves differently.Long ago, I was given an old tank which had even longer before belonged to a blacksmith. It was an Airco bottle, last tested in the 40's, first stamped in 1927, IIRC, and had some unusual symbols on it. I wrote a letter to Airco, giving them the serial number, the symbols and the dates; I received a letter stating that they had no record of the bottle and presumed it belonged to me. I need to send a copy of the letter with the bottle whenever my LWS sends it to be filled.
Reply:I have some Air gas tanks and now some proxair tanks.. I use to deal with sirgas all the time until they jacked the prices way up. My tanks are called customer owned, but in fact one of them was "barrowed" tank from an ex-employer many years ago,, But my tanks never get filled so to speak, they are always exchanged.. So one we it might be an air gas tank that I got from proxair or it might have a different name on it from who knows where.. But never seen one with USAF on it! LOL.. Try Proxair, in San Diego they ae by far the best price on 75/25 steel mix, 56.00 for a 200CFT tank!Miller 252Miller 250Miller Syncrowave 250Esab Plasma Powercut 1250HF Basic oxy/act torches
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmIt could have been like one of my bottles.  I owned all of mine and had them swapped at the local Airgas.  They all say Airgas on them now eventhough I owned the originals.  As far as I'm concerned, these are mine.  I don't give a **** who's sticker is on them.
Reply:Airgas is a pain around here. Nobody will take them except airgas. I called them after buying two helium tanks. They accused me of stealing them. I said the heck with them and will cut them up with the plasma. I did not steal them and do not like being accused of stealing them.According to my LWS Airgas will aggressively get after you and will confiscate the tanks when you take them in. It was recommended to me to give them to airgas or cut them up and scrap them. In addition to the sticker or neck ring, there is a serial number on the tank that identifies the tank as airgas. I would go back to the seller if possible and demand a refund.Find a company that will exchange cylinders of companies that are out of business or customer owned (no neck ring printing) and use them from now on.All tanks over a certain size are consider rental tanks no matter what company name is stamped on them.The LWS I deal with will take ANY tank of ANY size as long as it is not airgas. In return I get a cylinder with nothing on the neck ring and my account shows it as "Customer Owned."
Reply:By law gas distributors are not allowed to accept tanks owned by another company.  There was a local business who was taking tanks from anyone, and swapping them.  Well to make a long story short he did time in the pen for it....   Bob, where did you buy the tanks from?  Airgas? or an individual.  As I stated earlier.  Just because someone buys a tank doesn't mean the seller legally had the right to sell it.  Doesn't mean the buyer was in the wrong for what he didn't know.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Hey Guys, The airgas here is really good about things like that. I personally bought all my cylinders from Airtec years ago as the company I worked for bought theirs from Interstate. I did this to avoid any chance of confusion, and they were closer to my home shop. And I was able to buy 150CF cylinders no issue, and have 7 of them ( from 80-150 CF all gasses ). Anyway the home shop got mothballed for things like marriage, and moving 3 times to follow a job or my wifes schooling etc etc. Well in the 3 year span of having my cylinders last filled, and now starting up the home shop again, Airgas had bought out both companies. Well somewhere in one of the moves I had lost all of my paperwork, and airgas had no record of my personal cylinders. Apparently I wasnt the only person to fall through the cracks, and Airgas made an account for me and put all my cylinders on it as customer owned, no issues. I think its all in the individual store, and mine is excellent. Its worth a call to them, never know.
Reply:I bought the tanks from a guy on Craigslist.
Reply:i have some old oxygen tanks that say "army air corp" on the ring around the neck. my local air gas won't touch them with a ten foot pole.Dynasty 200DXPassport plus w/ spoolmate 100victor 315c oxy/(act and prop)Miller digital elitemilwaukee power tools
Reply:oops, just saw the last posted date, sorry for the revivalDynasty 200DXPassport plus w/ spoolmate 100victor 315c oxy/(act and prop)Miller digital elitemilwaukee power tools
Reply:Thats OK, I had just ran into my first problem with my "Valley national gases". I just bought 2 new 80cf (size code Q ) cylinders off a eBay store named GTS welco for a way cheaper price than you can get them here for. I took them to VNG to get them filled but they would only exchange them,$44 for the mixed bottle and $33 for straight Argon and have the opportunity to upgrade to a larger size when I decide too, that was the story over the phone but.......not the story I got when I arrived there after my 30min drive. The story now goes, we miss quoted you and its $58 for the shake and $47 for the straight with no chance of ever being able to upgrade because the 2 new tanks didn't come from there. After a few words I just took there filled tanks and left. I decided to call Airgas and see what they would do in this situation, they gave me the same story and same prices.....because I didnt buy it from them they cant upgrade it but will exchange it, so at least the two different places stories match and made little to no sense. NOW.......heres the kicker, I called Praxair and talked the head person (or only person) there and he thought that it was all a little interesting that they wouldnt upgrade when I have papers showing there mine and they have no neck ring or name anywhere. He told me to bring the ones I got from VNG to him when there empty and not only will he beat there prices he will upgrade the size of the tank when I decide too. I couldnt believe the low price he gave me for the refills, $21 for the mix and $20 for the straight. He just got a new customer for life and the word of mouth will always help because I am in a business where we sell welders and small (20cf) empty cylinders and now I will steer customers his(Praxair) way instead of the other two. The one thing that stands out though is how little or no cooperation I got from VNG or Airgas, dont they still operate from money that comes from sales, I know I didnt spend a fortune there but when I pulled out the greenbacks (118 of them) to pay at VNG there eys lit up like I just made there day in sale but it was the way they went about handling the situation that pissed me off . They have the way of making me feel like Im not good enough to shop there or be helped.Long story short, give Praxair a try if you have no luck with your Airgas or VNG you might just be surprised.......like I was  SQUARE WAVE 175 TIG   DUAL MIG 151You got a fair price from Praxair, thats roughly what I pay for the same cylinder fill. Whats weird is the other companies would exchange be NEVER upgrade for you.UA Local 598
Reply:I consider myself lucky I don't have to deal with this system.  I bought my cylinders (on sale at a pretty fair price) from my LWS and take them wherever I want to get them filled without any problem.Lincoln AC225 & MigPak 140, Lincoln Magnum SpoolGun, Miller Spectrum 375-X Plasma, Syncrowave 200 TIG, Millermatic 252 MIG, Miller Digital Elite, General 7x12" horiz/vert bandsaw, 3' box/pan brake, 20 ton press, milling machine, 12x28 lathe, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by WHughesYou got a fair price from Praxair, thats roughly what I pay for the same cylinder fill. Whats weird is the other companies would exchange be NEVER upgrade for you.
Reply:Originally Posted by fortyonethirtyIn my dealings with airgas, they have always been really picky about cylinders. Call airgas (anonymously) to see if it's servicable. But my guess is, I think I would be taking it back to the guy I got it from.What does the neck ring say? If it's blank, like my argon, in the pics, your clear. If it says airgas, or any of the former LWS that airgas now owns, your SOL. If it's got a name like my oxygen you'll probably be ok too. As long as you don't mind the ocasional air strike.
Reply:I am just curious what a lease on a large bottle runs (Size K i think? The 5' tall 9-10" wide ones)I used to get the itemized bill when I was in grad school for all of out tanks and iirc some of them were only 29c a month (prob because the tanks were from the 50's).  On the other end of the spectrum some idiot ordered a big tank of Flourine and we never ended up even using it once it was found out that the regulator for it was 1,200 bucks but that tank was $65 a month.
Reply:I don't mind the local airgas staff.   I HATE how corporate ties the hands of the poor SOB's that have to actually give a crap about the customers.  Air products is currently attempting a hostile takeover of airgas and i cant wait till the green monster dies.    The pretty much run a monopoly around here.  They bought up every decent LWS and turned them into useless corporate arms of paperwork and BS.If the neck ring says AIRGAS on it then find the nearest river and dump the cylinder overboard.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:Technically Praxair (Linde) fills the customer owned tanks and you go back later and get 'em. In the real world they are exchanged.There were two times after a store manager change I started getting rental bills for the tanks not exchanged within 30 days (no rent if you turn them that fast). I took my DOT titles in and said "this one is yours, mine is somewhere in your system, wanna go find it?" That fixed it...I'm still smoked about buying an aluminum 90cuft argon cyl for portable work (plain collar) first fill was Liquid Air. Got back home and took it to Praxair and went back the next week and they handed me a steel tank. I was told Praxair doesn't fill high pressure aluminum tanks, and when they get them they are returned to the owners... Pretty neat trick finding the owner of a plain collar cyl I think (this was post DOT title days in Illinois so all I had was a reciept with mfg indentity and ser #s). SCREWED!Matt