Pre-heating is slowing the job down

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I'm an ironworker working at WTC and we've been welding and erecting steel in various parts of the site for about 8 months now.  Its starting to get really frustrating when you can't weld something that calls for a fillet weld without pre-heating.  I've wanted to get onto this job since I started my apprenticeship 5 years ago, been a journeyman for 2 and now my motivation and morale is going down the drain because of this job.  The empire state building was completed in 13 1/2 months, we are approaching 9 years of barely any progress.  Has technology advanced since then?  I say we go back to erecting with rivets and guide derricks.  Sorry if I am going off on a tangent but on friday I got sent home for the day because I went four steps up a ladder and didn't tie off in time before the whole saftey entourage turned the corner.  There is an endless army of saftey people, inspectors, and engineers who relentlessly slow you down.  I understand sometimes these people are justified but it is out of control.  It takes a day for 4 guys to get a couple hours worth of work done, literally!  Past couple days it was very difficult and time consuming just to get a propane tank and a rosebud to preheat the steel so the inspector, who is in his mid twenties and never welded a day in his life, could make sure that the temp was at 225 degrees.  All of the big full penn connections get preheated and that is understood.  We are welding these hangers that are roughly made of a W8X20 beam with studs welded on it and clips on one end that get a 5/16 fillet weld all around on the underside of what seems to be a W36X800 (just a guess).  The beam that these are getting welded to has a 3" flange.  These hangers will support stairs and they will be totally encased in a concrete and rebar wall.  The inspector seems to have an extreme lack of practicality and like every other person in a white hardhat, common sense will not be tolerated.  The only kind of welding that I can say I am pretty damn good at is stick welding.  Within my 10 years of welding with stick I've seen how welds respond in many compromising situations.  This is strait up steel on steel.Basically I am just trying to see, depsite everything else that which slows progress, if there is any way around this.  I am not an engineer, I just erect the steel according to the drawing.  My boss is trying to get the detailed welding procedure.  Untill then alot of time is wasted preheating in a situation that seems like it should be uncalled for.  Is there any way around this?  Here are a couple pictures...The first two are sideways.  In the last picture you can see that this area has other bolted hangers which some had marking paint on the steel that had to be removed before we could bolt the pieces up.  In the last picture one of the guys is grinding out the weld so we can pre-heat it to 225 degrees then re-weld it. Attached Images
Reply:"Sorry if I am going off on a tangent but on friday I got sent home for the day because I went four steps up a ladder and didn't tie off in time before the whole saftey entourage turned the corner."Thay make you tie off on the frickin ladders? What are you tieing into? What kind of snatch block are you using? WOW, sounds like I would have left already! Thats sounds like a bunch of safty dicks that know nothing about what your doing.
Reply:You might want to look into induction heating systems such as those by Miller: http://www.millerwelds.com/products/induction_heatingThe equipment may be a bit expensive but it could eliminate the need for open flames (or any flames) and compressed fuel-gas cylinders which should make the safety guys happy. Also, it can heat steel up very quickly which should make you and your boss happy, and Miller's systems can use integrated temperature probes to control and record temperature very accurately which should make the inspectors happy.My suggestion would be to read up as much as you can on the technology and then send an email off to Miller explaining your situation and where you're working (WTC). Also, Ask your boss and/or any other superiors for permission/authority to try and set up a demo with a Miller rep. I suspect that Miller would be very eager to get some of their new high-tech systems on to such a high-profile job. Don't forget to keep the safety guys, inspectors, and engineers in the loop, keep them happy and things tend to work smoother.Visit Tensaiteki.com
Reply:66mynd, you're prolly not going to have any luck getting the pre-heat waived, it's done here to remove any possible surface moisture in the area of the weld. Really 220° will work but somebody had to pick a number and 250° sounded good I guess (yea it's that stupid).You can speed the pre-heat up a bit by pulling the air propane torch back a bit maybe 8" or more and see if things don't go faster for you.You can also see if you can get one of these things at the bottom of this page;http://www.belchfire.com/torch-produ...dAirTorch.aspxIt needs compressed air also, so maybe you could get a operator that will run the compressor and make good coffee in the bargain. Also make sure the guys with the shirts and ties are close and everyone has a phone cam ready when you open the air valve. I figure an 8" spot at a 24" distance will gain 100° per minute on a 3" section.Then go back to the local and ask the VP when you're going to have to show up for work with full face mask, body armour, boxing gloves and steel toe "mickey mouse boots" that float.The contractor saftey guys have been just turning the inside trades upside down in my area, just zeroing in on the UA and IBEW(inside). Been some formen terminated...Good LuckMatt
Reply:The technology to get the steel heated up is pretty cool.  I'm sure if we had 50 of these to do it would be worth the time and money but I am pretty sure its just a handful that need to be done.  We should have been done already but besides the pre-heating we have to get a fire permit, wait for saftey guy to come out and inspect the area before we start, set up fall protection (tie off over 4'), wait for the inspector to show up and check that the temp of the steel... etc.  We are constantly moving between 2-3 locations a day trying to get something done somewhere while we wait for approval/clearances somewhere else.  Its time consuming moving oxy/act setup, the welding machine, lead, and tools to different spots a couple times a day.  Is there something that I am missing here?  Is it really necessary?  Because if so I'd like to understand why this particular thing needs to be preheated where as other things don't.  Do all fillet weld need to be preheated?  If not which ones do and which ones don't?  This may prove to be a good learning experience for me.  When I get to the next job I can be properly set up and know what to expect.And as for the whole saftey thing, I don't know how much more out of control this can get.  Sorry to see its affecting some of you guys too.  I'm not sure how it ever became cost effective to pay people to have the authority to stop you from working for such absurd saftey infractions but this is the reality of it.  I am trying to adapt to this and be productive but when kids out of college and other people who have never lifted a tool come around and look down upon you, constantly stop you from working and try to tell you how to do your job, it takes a toll on worker morale.
Reply:66mynd, are you working on misc. iron, add-ons etc? If so this will all be documented like crazy down to the stuff made at the last minute down the street at the local non-union blacksmith's and hand carried back to the job.Matt
Reply:At WTP for Bechtel, they had us tying off in a scissor lift. Government job means lots of positions that will be pissy if they are not included. Safety douches being just one aspect.UA Local 598
Reply:It's not really the college kids fault, they only know what's in their manuals. Weren't you introduced to "OSHA Standard 1926" during your apprenticeship ??? If not then your learning has a loooooooooooong way to go because that's only the tip of the iceburg...lmao !!! 1926 is only one of several manuals you will be becoming familiar with. And like Matt stated, it's to sweat the steel...........ENJOYAnything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:My 1st blind guess is that they are worried about the heavy W36 beams sucking too much heat from the weld area and  the beads/ heat affected zone cooling too fast. It may also be that the steel is higher strength than "normal" and requires the preheat in general. I could easily see special steel like that in a very tall high rise structure in the columns.Last it could be the engineer just covered their @ss with the procedure and didn't realy have a clue. I've seen this any number of times where they call for rebar/ wire in concrete in areas that really don't need it. Usually it's because some where down the line they thought that you always needed to do it that way. Often they take one specialized case in the past and think if it works here, it should work everywhere... On a huge project like this, there's hundreds of "engineers" working on the drawings/specs. Often many are kids fresh out of school doing the menial grunt work after the "pro's" do all the complicated stuff. As far as eating up time... I'd be honestly surprised if 1 engineer in 10 have ever actually been to a site and really had an understanding of whats going on. None of that stuff is covered in school. In fact usually theres almost no real life experience done in school. Most learn how things are put together from a book or drawing, not because they've seen it done. Very few probably have any experience in the building fields at all. I saw that when I went to school for architecture. In the one class we had that actually had us do plans for a building, my "instructor" told me that the footings I designed were not the way they "do it in the field". Yet day in day out I dug and poured 160+ yards of footings for a project exactly the way I drew them for the class. Her way would have taken a week to do what we did in less than a day. Her reason was that the small amount of extra concrete cost more than her way of laying block. She completely neglected the added labor costs doing it her way.I seriously doubt you will get anyone to change anything about the procedure. A change would require the engineer to sign off on it. A change would require them to research and spend time to be sure that they wouldn't cause an issue. Time is money, and I soubt you'd get anyone to agree to foot the bill. The only way you might get them to change is if you could proove there's a problem doing it their way, not that it's an inconvience to you..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by Matt_Maguire66mynd, are you working on misc. iron, add-ons etc? If so this will all be documented like crazy down to the stuff made at the last minute down the street at the local non-union blacksmith's and hand carried back to the job.Matt
Reply:Originally Posted by 66myndBut back to really dig a little deeper with my original question... if pre-heating is justified in this instance, then despite all of the non-preheated field welds I have done in 10 years, what makes something deserving of pre-heating and something not?  Where is the line?
Reply:I've gotta go to the office tomorrow, I'll see if I can get my hands on A92.6 while I'm there.Anything worth doing is worth doing RIGHT
Reply:Am I missing something?  Do you get paid by the hour or by the joint.  Yes, you get paid by the hour.  Who cares if they want you to pre-heat it or not, its not costing you a dime.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:I have only had to preheat in the winter,you don't mind it too much when it's about zero out but I hear it's been in the 90s there thats gotta suck. Did they x-ray the welds and say your not getting good penetration or is this something he just thinks you should do? Is it time and material or bid? If its not in contract or on the prints then it an extra. Nobody wants to see their company loose money and if they do they usally think you screwed them. Even though the shop made every thing wrong and you have to rework every thing in the field, but it can't be their fault because they don't make as much money.
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88Am I missing something?  Do you get paid by the hour or by the joint.  Yes, you get paid by the hour.  Who cares if they want you to pre-heat it or not, its not costing you a dime.
Reply:Originally Posted by 66myndThe technology to get the steel heated up is pretty cool.  I'm sure if we had 50 of these to do it would be worth the time and money but I am pretty sure its just a handful that need to be done.  We should have been done already but besides the pre-heating we have to get a fire permit, wait for saftey guy to come out and inspect the area before we start, set up fall protection (tie off over 4'), wait for the inspector to show up and check that the temp of the steel... etc.  We are constantly moving between 2-3 locations a day trying to get something done somewhere while we wait for approval/clearances somewhere else.  Its time consuming moving oxy/act setup, the welding machine, lead, and tools to different spots a couple times a day.  Is there something that I am missing here?  Is it really necessary?  Because if so I'd like to understand why this particular thing needs to be preheated where as other things don't.  Do all fillet weld need to be preheated?  If not which ones do and which ones don't?  This may prove to be a good learning experience for me.  When I get to the next job I can be properly set up and know what to expect.And as for the whole saftey thing, I don't know how much more out of control this can get.  Sorry to see its affecting some of you guys too.  I'm not sure how it ever became cost effective to pay people to have the authority to stop you from working for such absurd saftey infractions but this is the reality of it.  I am trying to adapt to this and be productive but when kids out of college and other people who have never lifted a tool come around and look down upon you, constantly stop you from working and try to tell you how to do your job, it takes a toll on worker morale.
Reply:Hey there 66myndWe do a lot of pre/post heating where I work.We have one of the Miller induction heaters and, in my opinion, it won't work for your application. After attaching an adequate layer of insulation, you need to wrap the cables in close contact with the insulation/metal. The cable would wrap around the flanges nicely, but would not contact the web at all. If it didn't just give you a fault code it would take forever to heat up. Besides you are only going to 250, even if you could get a good wrap, it would take five times longer to wrap it than it would take to heat it.I would recommend an Oxy/Propane rosebud. (Victor Type 55 Heavy Duty Heating Nozzle) It will get you 250 surface temp. in less than a minute. They can be as portable as a Oxy/Acetylene torch, and if you get one with a long enough wand, you won't have to get your feet above 4' off the ground.        I have my own thoughts in regards to safety inspectors, 20 year old CWIs, and engineers. I think it best to keep them to myself..Will
Reply:66mynd,  You are in a catch 22.  Since you are working at ground zero any and all buildings will be inspected two to three times so everybody covers their own a$$.  The second part of it is, most people do not like the designs.  So they could be slowing it up hoping that the MTA will wake up and rebuild the correct buildings.  It feels weird talking to someone who is working on them.  I watched them go up as a kid.  Just keep one thing in mind, you have the pleasure ( and pain) of working on one of the most important sites in the City.  Their is no other building as important as the WTC.  I know right now it does not mean much, but when you are done people for generations will be talking about and coming to see your work.  Be proud of where you are working and what you are working for.I am tired of Ketchup, I want the Gravy...
Reply:Hi again 66mynd,I guess you are feeling like you, or your skills are not trusted... And per the above post if you can ever tell someone "I helped build that". That would suck!The  pre-heat in this case to remove a possible cause of "hydrogen cracking". Perhaps this link will help a bit;http://www.twi.co.uk/content/jk45.htmlIf steel is at any time "cooler" than the dew point some moisture will condense on the surface. It can be heavy dew, or you may not see it at all. From a number of different reactions the H2O can disassociate and some hydrogen will migrate into the parent material itself. At welding temps many of the H2O molecules are broken apart and not turned to steam or evaporated. This is where the bad voo-doo can happen.Care is taken with the rod as the flux can retain large amounts of water (you know this part). What is not generally discussed is how much water can be retained in surface rust, dirt and scale. Sometimes it is enough to cause problems.If you take a piece of cold rolled and clean it, leave it be for a few days and place in gycerin it will outgas bubbles for a short period of time. These will mostly be hydrogen. If you let it rust and sit for months it will outgas for hours, if it is hot rolled it can outgas for a day or two. Free Hydrogen and free oxygen can go through an argon tank over time and re-combine as water inside (takes a while). Gas atoms can be slippery little ba$tards!If you weld two hot rolled coupons with new lo-hy rod and place it in glycerin (let it cool to room temp first) it will outgas at the weld violently for a short time and can take weeks before the outgas is the same rate as a non welded coupon placed next to it.Matt
Reply:Structural steel for the WTC, in all likelihood constructed in accordance with D1.1.225°F is what's required for base metal thicknesses greater than 2.5".  If they're making you preheat 225°F for anything less, they're likely interpreting the code/procedure incorrectly.
Reply:The idea of preheating and post heating is addressed in the AWS standard, it also has a lot to do with the metallurgic components of the structural steel that are being used. I would suggest that you speak to someone at your hall and ask them to find some information about why this is being done.
Reply:66mynd,  First let me touch on a couple of points. You state you are not an engineer. This is very important. While many may not think very highly of engineers, they are the ones ultimately responsible for the structure. Next you state that your boss is trying to get "the detailed welding procedure". He should have already had this prior to anybody striking an arc on this project. I know this is code work, most likely AWS D1.1. NYS specifications may even exceed the code, much like their safety requirements may “meet or exceed” OSHA regulations.As for the young inspector, well he may be young and may indeed have never struck an arc but if he is an AWS CWI then he has proven his ability to inspect your welds and welding procedure to any given code. I am sure his credentials were checked out well before he was assigned to this job. He is the "middle man" so to speak, between the EOR and production. He must insure that the work is done to code and customer specification. If he deviates or allows you to deviate from the preheat requirements set out by engineering in the WPS he is then responsible in the event of a failure. Surely your boss knew of the welding and safety requirements before taking on the job and if not, shame on him/her. I am quite positive that you would feel very bad in the event of a failure that was traced back to the deviation from preheat requirements, especially if there was a loss of life/lives as a result. What makes something deserving of preheat is determined by the engineer and conveyed in the specifications and the WPS, not by the foreman, welder or the certified inspector.As for this job, seeing as how it is very unlikely that preheat was not covered in the job specifications and the safety regulations were not additions after the fact, you are going to have to bite the bullet. Some people have disdain for safety and QA/QC guys that do their job correctly. I am one that has a serious disdain for safety and QA/QC guys that turn a blind eye thinking they know more than the governing bodies or because they do not have the nut’s to do the right thing. I also have a disdain for companies that bid a job not knowing the safety and quality requirements or knowing of but thinking they will not have to adhere to the safety and quality requirements. Companies should not bid the job if they can not fulfill the requirements.Having said all this, to find out if there is any way out of it or if you are being held to criteria that is not required, you will have to go back to step #1 which should have been looked at before the job started. Applicable code, specifications, welding procedures ect. Best regards,Jrw159
Reply:JRW excellent post.66mynd, I have to say these things should have been addressed in your apprenticeship, IMHO I believe that you should know these things so you can strive to be the best union ironworker you can be. I believe that the complacent attitude that you show is clearly an issue that you need to address. I would also say that the inspector that you talk about who has never struck an arc, I bet you could learn a lot from him. And it is a wonder why the general public don't believe union members about being the best trained trade workers out there.
Reply:Good thread here people, lots of info. 66mynd, I'm surprised the 3" flange in your pics doesn't have insulation wrapped all over it to retain the preheat. For faster heating you guys should try making a simple sheetmetal shroud, just like your car radiator, to focus the heat. We do it here in the winter time. Also, don't let the slugs bring down your morale & effort, they're everywhere, union or not. Sky Hy out.
Reply:I would have expected that particular jobsite to be that way to the nth degree. no one wanted to be held liable for ANYTHING that failed in any way shape or form on the WTC. Can you imagine the feeling of the engineer or design firm who could have possible prevented them from coming down? Lets not get into an arguement about how or why they came down. In the the hypothetical scenario where I designed a building that came down and killed thousands of people regardless of being hit by a bomb/plane/nuke whatever I would be up all night for the rest of my life trying to figure out what I could have done differently to change the outcome. I promise 99.9999% of the people who designed or are designing these buildings has had the exact same thought at least once. Every single i will be dotted as well as every t crossed. Count on that. This is from the perspective of an engineering student turned welder for 8 yrs about to turn engineering student again. btw I've had to tie off over 4ft and preheat EVERYTHING while welding on mining equipment. I didnt always agree with what I was payed to do but I did my job the best I could and as quickly as I could despite my hourly pay. It's just the way it is and you get used to it or you dont. I didn't get used to it so I'm going to go finish my degree so I can tell you how it should be builtJrw159 great post!  You pretty much covered everything I could throw at you guys.  I appreciate everyones 2 cents as well.  I know there is a lot I have to learn still and get used to.  I am used to going on to jobs and getting things done as best I could and ahead of schedule.  If we are not making the company money no one is happy.  I have never ever had a weld fail and welded in some pretty compromising circumstances at times.  I usually don't put up an argument but this time it got to me.  I do see things more clearly now and I'm not sure how this job was bid without having checked the welding procedure.  Maybe it is time and material, my company is subbing for another company who is subbing for another (Bovis)!  I don't want to come across as putting down other proffessions its just that when you get frustrated it can sound that way.  Sometimes it feels like people are trying to get over on you but in the end they are just doing their job.  Not too long ago we put up a small building in Long Island, it was hurry up and get the rig outta there for two days till the steel was set.  Then no pre heat, reflector vests, no harness... just threw the thing up, bolted, spread the bar joists weld it, toss the deck and weld it, etc, get in get out.  Every job site is different and to be good at this trade you have to adapt where ever you go.  I'm still getting the hang of this!
Reply:Originally Posted by mmchughJRW excellent post.66mynd, I have to say these things should have been addressed in your apprenticeship, IMHO I believe that you should know these things so you can strive to be the best union ironworker you can be. I believe that the complacent attitude that you show is clearly an issue that you need to address. I would also say that the inspector that you talk about who has never struck an arc, I bet you could learn a lot from him. And it is a wonder why the general public don't believe union members about being the best trained trade workers out there.
Reply:If the WPS says to preheat, then preheat.If the applicable Code(s) say to preheat, then preheat.If the applicable regulations say to tie-off or wear a pink hardhat, then tie-off or wear the pink hardhat.As to WHY there is preheat required, it could be because of the steel being used requires it.  Or the applicable construction/welding Codes require it.  Or the WPS requires it.  Or all of the above.Yours is not to wonder why, yours is just to do it.  There could certainly be a misapplication of some Code requirement, but if the specs (prints, plans, WPS, whatever) say to preheat, then you preheat.Think of it this way.  If the 'suits' spec it out one way and the Code(s) say to do it that way, and -you- do it differently, who is going to be responsible if it EVER fails?  You.Don't cut corners.  It is unprofessional, unethical, illegal, immoral, etc, etc.Now if your question is 'Why is preheat required?', then sure that is a good and valid question.  And the answer is because the folks in the labs and such figured out that preheat is required often because of hydrogen cracking concerns or the HAZ or actual weld bead coming out 'better' when a certain preheat is applied.  It may be because of the steel alloy being used, or the filler alloy being used, or the physical size of the steel and thus the heating/cooling characteristics of the steel and the weld bead and the HAZ, or all of the above.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseNow if your question is 'Why is preheat required?', then sure that is a good and valid question.  And the answer is because the folks in the labs and such figured out that preheat is required often because of hydrogen cracking concerns or the HAZ or actual weld bead coming out 'better' when a certain preheat is applied.
Reply:Originally Posted by Matt_MaguireMoonrise, please examine "the folks in the labs" statement and post back. I think that I may disagree with it. Think of where all construction materials came from, who practiced using them, and who really had an interest in the fitness and correct use of them. And who really has the mountain of data submitted, that is studied and practice is drawn from.Then we can go more to the very valid question the OP had, of "why" and wanted to post up instead of having the answer at the ready or very close by.It is a big leap for any of the above posters to make any assumption about the OP by his question.I DO think something is breaking here regarding trade practices and management of same, and I think it is getting worse.Matt
Reply:66mynd  I do not have a low opinion of you, I am a union member and proud of the time I spent with the union, I was simply stating that due to your idea that the inspector that you spoke of  had no time behind a hood or time in the "real world" my words not yours, I believe you could learn a lot from him about the metal from a person who has the book knowledge. I realize that most union ironworkers have a very negative view about these people. But surely you could understand that that person could help you understand why something is being done. I don't expect that all union ironworkers have a degree in metallurgy but I do expect them to have a basic understanding of the the idea of metallurgy. I do wish you luck in your job and your career. stay safe and best regards.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseOh, don't get me wrong, I HATE stupid and idiotic regulations.
Reply:matt, can you let me know what books and other learning material you are talking about either post it up or send me a pm. My concern was with the metallurgy aspect of things, this is becoming more and more of an issue IMHO, people doing because they are told too, with out having an understanding of the who's, what's, why's, and where. That to me is a bigger problem, if we as weldors, erectors and others dont understand these things then how can we as professionals more forward and get better? this is not a slam against anyone, and I do believe it took a lot of guts for the OP to come on here and ask this question.
Reply:An engineer deemed it necessary to pre-heat so thats why it must be done.  He has been educated in the "why" and I have been educated in the "how".  And what I am getting from you guys is that pre-heating, aside from removing moisture, makes for a better weld.  Not that a good welder can't make a great weld on a piece of steel, a good welder can make an even better weld if it is pre-heated.  So where do you draw the line?  I mean what happens when you are asked to weld something or prepare for a weld/bolted conection in a way that seems like complete overkill?  Today we couldn't bolt a beam up till we removed some marking paint that was in the connection.  I know that in essence a welder shouldn't question an engineer because the welder was trained in how to weld and the engineer went to school to determine the procedure for the task a hand.  But should we really keep our mouths shut all the time?  Is it not sometimes appropriate for men in the field to challenge something that doesn't seem right?  I barely see engineers out in the field.  They have not seen as many welds that have failed, how much a tac weld can hold before it breaks, bolts sheered, cables snapped, columns buckle, beams overloaded etc as the guys who actually build it and see how steel behaves every day all week long.  There is a different but necessary skill an ironworker / welder gets from constantly working with steel everyday for their whole life.  By no means am I dismissing what is taught in school and textbooks.  But in a way it is asanine to just dismiss what we, tradesmen, have spent years doing, experiencing, seeing in real life and being physically and mentally affected by.  4 months ago I was on a beam, cut it loose from the rig, and me and my partner went down 25' along with half the building and somehow went home that day (good thing I know when and when not to tie off, in this case I wasn't).  Ive read about that in apprentice class, saw videos but its hard to catch when there are alot of things going on all being important.  You can bet that when I see anchor bolts that don't look right to me, I don't care what it says in the detail or textbook, i'll go the extra mile to make it safe so I am happy.  Its easy to press the wrong button on the calculator, but whos going to catch it?  Thats right me!  There is an ocean in between the men in the field and the guys with the degree.  We are dealing with the same material but we study it from two very different point of views.  Two schools of thought and two egos' in need of stroking.  Its like two cooks in the kitchen spoil the broth.  No one ever came up with a way to harness each others skill and work together.  I'm telling you its us vs. saftey, us vs. engineers, us vs. inspectors... being so divided makes for animosity and bitterness, it puts huge damper on work and things take forever to get done.  The lower profile jobs that I go on are way more productive.  People have their own money at stake, not tax dollars or wherever the big boys get their funds from.  They have families to feed.  When we get the steel and the prints we get the job done, we do it safe by our standards and if it doesn't fit we modify it in the field as we see fit.  Its worked like that for 100 years.  For everyone who says that if I change it I am liable, damn right!  I risk my *** everyday, its usually not a money thing that makes me think twice about what I'm doing, its my life.Last edited by 66mynd; 07-10-2010 at 07:15 PM.
Reply:66mynd-  I think you may have hit the nail on the head with your last paragraph,  and as already has been said you are on the highest profile job in the country. As far as when the line gets drawn, on preheat and post-heat it is truly up to those that make way more money then most of us who work in the field. It would seem that most of the people in-charge of this job are worried about the minor details, and it looks like that is how it is going to be, which is most unfortunate for you because you do seem to still care about your career. again best of luck to you and stay safe.
Reply:mmchugh, right on.  If I were working on a full penn connection, crane boom, some foreign metal or different grade of steel I woudn't be asking all of this.  But thanks for giving my question some merit.  I believe that the bigger picture is a good look into how the industry is evolving... and its not a pretty picture.
Reply:Originally Posted by 66mynd... I believe that the bigger picture is a good look into how the industry is evolving... and its not a pretty picture.
Reply:I agree with both of you, it is amazing that young people coming into the trades as a whole want the same respect and understanding as someone who has been doing this day in and day out for 20 years. these people in general have been given everything throughout their lives and think that they are owed something. This is one of the main reason's that I am no longer involved with the union, I have no ill will towards the men and women that know their jobs and everything that goes along with that. Some other issues IMO is the ideal of political correctness, protection of the environment, and even the idea that most of the BA's and others in charge of the labor unions have failed their membership, they have forgotten that dues paid by the members pay for them. most BA's believe they know what's best for the membership and will do everything in their power to accomplish their goals(opinion) which seem to be in direct conflict with what the membership want. Engineers in todays construction world are not the same as the engineers of old, most of these people have no clue on what they are doing unless they have a computer in front of them telling them what to do, to me the other issue with engineers is the simple idea that the book is always right. This idea alone I blame for people no longer learning all aspects of their jobs, it has invaded everything in our life, this mentality is going to be an issue for a long time to come I really doubt that it will change in any of our life times.
Reply:Originally Posted by mmchughmatt, can you let me know what books and other learning material you are talking about either post it up or send me a pm. My concern was with the metallurgy aspect of things, this is becoming more and more of an issue IMHO, people doing because they are told too, with out having an understanding of the who's, what's, why's, and where. That to me is a bigger problem, if we as weldors, erectors and others dont understand these things then how can we as professionals more forward and get better? this is not a slam against anyone, and I do believe it took a lot of guts for the OP to come on here and ask this question.
Reply:Below is Penton's Welding and Fabricating Handbook. This was for sale but often was purchased by the LWS or suppliers and then given to customers. I have several , earliest was 79. The data portion changed each year and if you have enough of them, you have the same data submitted for texts used in education. These were advertiser supported and were sort of a "yellow pages" to the trade.  I have included sample pictures of a page on GMAW (showing Miller Electric referring to "CV" as "CP" in 1984) and a page showing suppliers for copper fillers conforming to AWS 5.7-77 (in case you might want to talk to the manufacturer, contact info is in another section). Pre-heat is discussed in some of these handbooks.Disclaimer, everything pictured for sale, I reserve the right to refuse any offer. Matt Attached Images
Reply:Next up is from US Steel Catalog and Reference, originally "free as air" and now very rare. I had to include a sample page of A-7 (pre A36 and A992). At that time, they weren't very concerned with welding the stuff. A-7 was withdrawn in 1967 for A36 but in tonnage still existing in structure, it remains the "king".Also shown is T-1, still useful after all these years. The info provided here is pretty clear and has welding info that notes "moisture" and "high restraint" as cautions.Disclaimer, everything pictured for sale, I reserve the right to refuse any offer. Matt Attached Images
Reply:Last is "not free as air" unless you are dumpster diving. Workshop Technology by W. Chapman (pre 1978 re-works) are the best texts I've ever seen for the shop. These copies were provided to our "Peace Corps" volunteers in the 1960's. Although more intended for the shop or industrial engineering these also contain a crap ton of useful stuff for the chemist or met-lab in plain English. Before page 50 in the first of three textbooks, you will be able to at least understand most of what you may find in a met-lab filing cabinet.Pictured are; covers for Vol.1&3, index for Vol.1 (2 pics), page 28-29 for Vol.1, and pages 20-21 for Vol.3.Disclaimer, everything pictured for sale, I reserve the right to refuse any offer, used booksellers just love these things.  Matt Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by mmchughmatt, can you let me know what books and other learning material you are talking about either post it up or send me a pm. My concern was with the metallurgy aspect of things, this is becoming more and more of an issue IMHO, people doing because they are told too, with out having an understanding of the who's, what's, why's, and where. That to me is a bigger problem, if we as weldors, erectors and others dont understand these things then how can we as professionals more forward and get better? this is not a slam against anyone, and I do believe it took a lot of guts for the OP to come on here and ask this question.
Reply:pre heat is a bitch some times but it is required in some areas and we have to deal with it but look at it this way you will get alot more hrs out of the job you are on and it all goes into the pension&annuity. Mmchugh i dont know what union you were a part of but tell me this where are you going to get a job that pays you the same for the identical work and will offer a good retirement and a annuity to boot.ive worked all around in my time and there is allays b.s where ever you go but i chose to stay where i have the most freedom and make the most money. bty what union were you in to make these statements?After the arc has died the weld remains
Reply:Boilermaker- Let me say this I have no ill will towards any union or any of it's members. To answer your first question there is NO WHERE that you can make the same money, the pension and annuity if you invest correctly you can easily match or exceed what any union provides. You are correct about the B.S. it is EVERYWHERE! I would have loved to stay in the union, but in reality I am not going to be specific about my union affiliation, I can say I learned a lot during my time in the union, my four year apprenticeship was a lot of fun and I really did enjoy it. Again let me say I did not make any untrue statements in my earlier post. If you boilermaker believe this is a cop out I am sorry for your opinion about that. also boilermaker stay safe and best of luck to you.