Utility Trailer Modification

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Hey all,I picked up a used, stoutly built 5x8 utility trailer for cheap. The only problem is it has no suspension...the axle is welded directly to the frame with 1" steel connectors. It tows just fine with a load, but empty it's a bit bouncy. Scale weight on the trailer is 800lbs. I'm going to buy some leaf springs and a hangar kit, but I had some questions for you trailer and welding experts:Since there's some spanner material between the axle and the frame I'm assuming it's safe to cut it from the frame without comprising the axle integrity?The axle is 3" diameter and rated at 5200+ lbs. 90% of the workload on this trailer will be much lighter than that since I bought it for yard waste and the occassional gravel/dirt load. Will a pair of leaf springs rated at 3500lbs provide a significantly better tow experience than some 5000+ lb springs? Are there certain leaf springs that accomodate wider load ranges?If I buy all the parts and task the welding to a professional what am I looking to pay for him to cut the axle from the frame, weld on spring hangers and axle pads, and put everything together? I stopped by 1 slim shady shop and showed him the trailer and he said it would be super easy...but he wanted $250 for a few hours work. That seemed a bit pricey to me, but I'm not familiar with welding prices for small jobs.That's all I can think of for now. Any info is appreciated. Thanks.
Reply:That is a fair sounding estimate. It will take a few hours to cut the axle off, clean the frame where new hardware will be located and weld on new hangers. The axle will still need to be reattached, and any brake wiring reconnected, I assume you have brakes...We try to match the hatch with weight ratings, you will de-rate the trailer to the rating of the weakest link. 3500 pound springs (rated as a set) will be the limiting factor for load capacity. A 5.2k axle deserves a matching set of springs, tires, wheels, coupler, tow vehicle, etc. It needs to be built to handle that one time big, gnarly load of 2 and a half tons of concrete, dirt and rocks, or that will be the trip that breaks the camels back. City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Originally Posted by tanglediverThat is a fair sounding estimate. It will take a few hours to cut the axle off, clean the frame where new hardware will be located and weld on new hangers. The axle will still need to be reattached, and any brake wiring reconnected, I assume you have brakes...We try to match the hatch with weight ratings, you will de-rate the trailer to the rating of the weakest link. 3500 pound springs (rated as a set) will be the limiting factor for load capacity. A 5.2k axle deserves a matching set of springs, tires, wheels, coupler, tow vehicle, etc. It needs to be built to handle that one time big, gnarly load of 2 and a half tons of concrete, dirt and rocks, or that will be the trip that breaks the camels back.
Reply:The trailer weight rating is determined by the WEAKEST link.If you put 3500 lb springs on a 5200 lb axle which has tires to handle the 5200 lb load, you just turned the trailer into a 3500 lb trailer.  Which means you need the rating tag to reflect the 3500 lb limit.If you want/need a 3500 lb rated trailer, then put 3500 lb springs on it and you then have a 3500 lb rated trailer.If you want/need a 5200 lb rated trailer that already has a 5200 lb rated axle on it, then put 5k-6k lb rated springs on it.About the $250 estimate?  That would be what, about 4 hours labor time at a shop rate of $60/hr.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:The comments about the springs are right.The question on my mind is how sturdy is the trailer? It sounds like it was built with "available materials".  Is it built like a 5K trailer or is it closer to a 3.5K trailer.  The lack of springs might point toward a lower design weight.Just a thought.A simple hand drawn sketch of the frame with some material sizes would be helpful.
Reply:$250 sounds like a fair price that the shop gave you.
Reply:5000# springs on an 800# (EW) trailer?You might as well leave the axles welded to the trailer frame.You're not the first who thinks (who doesn't know what's involved) that the shop "is quoting too high".  The shop most likely thinks, "This bonehead doesn't understand what he's talking about".Don't know where you're posting from, but in VA, any trailer with over a 2000# GW requires brakes.Lots of issues here, the least being the rating on the springs.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseThe trailer weight rating is determined by the WEAKEST link.If you put 3500 lb springs on a 5200 lb axle which has tires to handle the 5200 lb load, you just turned the trailer into a 3500 lb trailer.  Which means you need the rating tag to reflect the 3500 lb limit.If you want/need a 3500 lb rated trailer, then put 3500 lb springs on it and you then have a 3500 lb rated trailer.If you want/need a 5200 lb rated trailer that already has a 5200 lb rated axle on it, then put 5k-6k lb rated springs on it.About the $250 estimate?  That would be what, about 4 hours labor time at a shop rate of $60/hr.
Reply:In -most- locales, it is not the Empty weight of a trailer that determines whether brakes are needed or not.  It is the weight rating (max 'allowable' loaded weight) that determines if brakes are needed/required.And in most of the info I have seen,  a 3500 or 5000 lb GVW trailer -requires- brakes.You can try reading up about trailers and axles and brakes and such over at the Dexter Axle website.http://www.dexteraxle.comand especially http://www.dexteraxle.com/resource_library  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseIn -most- locales, it is not the Empty weight of a trailer that determines whether brakes are needed or not.  It is the weight rating (max 'allowable' loaded weight) that determines if brakes are needed/required.And in most of the info I have seen,  a 3500 or 5000 lb GVW trailer -requires- brakes.You can try reading up about trailers and axles and brakes and such over at the Dexter Axle website.http://www.dexteraxle.comand especially http://www.dexteraxle.com/resource_library
Reply:Once in awhile an 'empty trailer/spring ratio' just doesn't work out. Towing empty and hitting bumps the springs actually help launch the dern thing in the air and/or let it keep on bouncing after it hits the ground again. Doesn't happen a lot but it does happen. When it does you need to change something. There's no formula for predetermining that. One thing about springs that a bit on the stiff side, it can't tow any worse than it does with no springs while empty, but it can sure tow better than no springs loaded. Nothing worse than an overloaded "rubber only" trailer or one where the springs are flat as a pancake. Just plain squirrelly with a heavy load and no springs.."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:One plus of a torsion axle is you can keep it somewhere around the same height if that is something you would like.The job should be easier and less exspensive as well, even tho it may cost more.On that trailer it would be my pick considering it was not designed with springs....but then this thread is somewhat a crap shoot without pics.Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:Some things don't seem to add up right. A trailer with no springs makes me think about torsion axles. The "spring" is built into the axle tube itself. Often these are light duty axles. That might be why they passed the trailer with no brakes, and why you are mentioning 800 lbs. I've seen any number of trailer "inspections" where they just slap a sticker on it and don't really inspect anything. I seriously doubt thats the case where the state does the inspections however. As mentioned a 5K trailer should have brakes as well as a battery and brake away switch to apply the brakes inthe event the trailer comes loose. I can't see the inspection tech missing those issues. There has to be more to this than you understand.Don't count on your inspection tag to get you by a DOT cop however. If stopped, the lack of brakes, lack of brake away switch will add up to a decent chunk of change. If by chance the previous owner used a 800lb axle instead to dodge the brake requirement, ( wouldn't be the first guy I've seen who went cheap because they didn't need the heavy axle, but needed to replace it to pass inspection) having 5K on an 800lb rated trailer will net you a very heafty over weight fine, and red tag the trailer so that it will need to be unloaded and/or towed on a flat bed. I know near me the DOT cops love to sit and wait near dumps, quarries, and landscape centers just waiting to rack up fines on trucks and trailers, especially small ones whose owners probably don't know the regs. The local cops have found this to be a very easy way to generate income, because theres almost always something they will find wrong with the truck/trailer if they stop it and look a bit. Lights out, over weight, improper licence/registration, Inspection out of date, no tarp, bad tires, bad brakes, dead battery for the brake away switch, safety chains not properly hooked up, items not properly secured with the correct number of straps/chains the correct distance apart....No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWSome things don't seem to add up right. A trailer with no springs makes me think about torsion axles. The "spring" is built into the axle tube itself. Often these are light duty axles. That might be why they passed the trailer with no brakes, and why you are mentioning 800 lbs. I've seen any number of trailer "inspections" where they just slap a sticker on it and don't really inspect anything. I seriously doubt thats the case where the state does the inspections however. As mentioned a 5K trailer should have brakes as well as a battery and brake away switch to apply the brakes inthe event the trailer comes loose. I can't see the inspection tech missing those issues. There has to be more to this than you understand.Don't count on your inspection tag to get you by a DOT cop however. If stopped, the lack of brakes, lack of brake away switch will add up to a decent chunk of change. If by chance the previous owner used a 800lb axle instead to dodge the brake requirement, ( wouldn't be the first guy I've seen who went cheap because they didn't need the heavy axle, but needed to replace it to pass inspection) having 5K on an 800lb rated trailer will net you a very heafty over weight fine, and red tag the trailer so that it will need to be unloaded and/or towed on a flat bed. I know near me the DOT cops love to sit and wait near dumps, quarries, and landscape centers just waiting to rack up fines on trucks and trailers, especially small ones whose owners probably don't know the regs. The local cops have found this to be a very easy way to generate income, because theres almost always something they will find wrong with the truck/trailer if they stop it and look a bit. Lights out, over weight, improper licence/registration, Inspection out of date, no tarp, bad tires, bad brakes, dead battery for the brake away switch, safety chains not properly hooked up, items not properly secured with the correct number of straps/chains the correct distance apart...
Reply:Originally Posted by FusionKingOne plus of a torsion axle is you can keep it somewhere around the same height if that is something you would like.The job should be easier and less exspensive as well, even tho it may cost more.On that trailer it would be my pick considering it was not designed with springs....but then this thread is somewhat a crap shoot without pics.
Reply:Originally Posted by mefferzOk. There are no brakes to worry about on the trailer.As for the springs...I know a lighter set will limit the load, but do you have any experience with light load ride quality between 3500lb springs vs 5000-6000lb springs? A little.I just don't have much experience with leaf spring suspensions. Does 3 vs. 4 leaf of the same load rating make any difference? Thanks.
Reply:Torsion axles ride best at about 80% capacity.  So if you want it to ride nice empty go with springs.  I use torsion axles on all my trailers.  Around here, trailers over 2000lbs EMPTY weight require brakes.  They don't care how much it can carry.  In fact, my registration doesn't even say what the GVWR is.  I verified this with the DOT when I built my dump trailer.  Doesn't make sense to me, but that's the way it is here.Oh, and about 4hrs labor would be reasonable to slightly high depending on the current set up.  I just replaced a bent axle for somebody in 3 hrs, but I had to cut off one of the hangers, replace the springs, shackles, and straighten a few other things.Last edited by Boostinjdm; 10-29-2010 at 11:53 PM.My name's not Jim....
Reply:So I ended up ordering a 3500lb leaf spring set and all the hanger hardware from Etrailer for dirt cheap. I found a welder with a nice shop that didn't look like he cooked methamphetamine in his spare time and he cut the axle and mounted all the hardware for an easy $150. I towed the trailer home tonight and it tows 10x better now. I think I made the right choice with 3500lb springs as they aren't too stiff when the trailer is empty and it still leaves me around 2500lbs in payload capacity, which is plenty for a 5x8 yootie.
Reply:I'm not sure here - because I have been away for a while, but what this person is looking for is to get some sort of ride quality out of his single axle trailer.The answer is - that it is not going to tow well when it is empty.I realize what you are saying about how heavy the trailer is empty and you feel that you do not need to haul a lot of weight and that the weight of the trailer - with the right suspension mod's would be the way to go in your opinion.But in all actuality, there is a lot more to hauling a trailer then just buying a trailer and a ball hitch and hooking it up to your vehicle and going down the road.In my travels - I have seen a lot of stupid mistakes made by people who wanted to build their own trailer - but had no experience building trailers.When you attach the axle solid - you do not give the frame or axle anyplace to put the suspension travel when you tow it down the road.  In the end, you usually bust something in the most inopportune time.Having a suspension with two axles is the way to go.It takes the load and divides it into two loads and then it reduces the amount of tongue weight the trailer exerts on the rear of the vehicle.A double axle trailer has less of a tendency to sway back and forth when it goes down the road and it usually backs up easier in my opinion.My opinion also is that a single axle trailer is worthless and that the longer the trailer it - the easier it backs up.I have a 5 x 8 trailer and I have spent several summers replacing the rusted out steel on the frame and I have made my own axle out of 2 x 2 box tubing and I have replaced both spring hangers and I can tell you that when you do it right, the ride of the trailer will not be so bad - as compared to having a solid axle trailer.One thing I would make sure of is that if you are going to use it for the whole 5000 lbs gross weight that I would have a 2 5/16ths ball on it and some trailer brakes.Nothing smaller then a 2 inch ball!
Reply:I'm glad I'm in oklahoma we can buy new 7k gvw trailers with no brakes brand new and be legal don't even have inspections or have to have tags but brakes are awesome. If it wasn't for the price of a brake kit I would install a set on my trailerMiller Bobcat 250 Cornwell Box Lot of Snap On Tools