More pics of my frame repair

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Hey Guys,I could not get anyone to come to my garage to help with this repair. So I fabricated some 14 gauge plates and plug welded through the existing repair and onto the plate clamped to the inside. I used 3/8 holes. The plates span my original repair seam, two plugs on one side and three on the other. I did take your advice and practiced first. I attached a picture of the exact same weld on some scap. I tried to break it off with vise grips and a sledge hammer. Attached Images
Reply:Be careful and do it right...I can remember in the 7th grade my mom said "people will offer you drugs" by the 10th grade I was like, "where the hell are these people?"
Reply:Is that a 72-74 Baracuda you are fixing?http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000825140116 Lincoln Weldanpower Model # AC-225/DC-210/6 portable,LN-25 suitcase feeder,Harbor Freight 80 AMP Inverter DC Tig
Reply:Hey Chris,Just personal observation of pics 2 & 3, your beads look to be a bit cold. Can't really see a heat line on each side of the beads.....of course, photos can be deceiving. Your metal looks to be nice & clean as it should be. Also, I didn't see your listing of the equipment used, ie.; welder used, filler, heat parameters, etc..DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Thats a cool picture...not for the owner I guess.Yes, 74 Barracuda.
Reply:By the way, this is the repair I'm talking about.When I did a test weld using the same settings, metal thickness, etc, I discovered that the penetration was not all the way through. Attached Images
Reply:I agree with denny, welds look way too cold.Ya gotta spend money to make money!
Reply:The ends of the plates should have been cut to a point and fully welded.  Not fully welding that repair creates a place for moisture to collect, and quickly rot out the already weakened metal.  A good example of this is the second generation Mazda B-series/ Ford Courier pickups.  They all rotted in the same spot in the front fenders within a few years due to a simple design flaw.  At the rear of the front fenders, there is a brace spot welded on, that paint could not fully get behind so it held moisture and caused them to rot out, some within a couple years if salt was involved.  Do yourself and your customer a favor and seal it up.  It'll be stronger and be less to worry about.
Reply:Originally Posted by 4x4_WelderThe ends of the plates should have been cut to a point and fully welded.  Not fully welding that repair creates a place for moisture to collect, and quickly rot out the already weakened metal.  A good example of this is the second generation Mazda B-series/ Ford Courier pickups.  They all rotted in the same spot in the front fenders within a few years due to a simple design flaw.  At the rear of the front fenders, there is a brace spot welded on, that paint could not fully get behind so it held moisture and caused them to rot out, some within a couple years if salt was involved.  Do yourself and your customer a favor and seal it up.  It'll be stronger and be less to worry about.
Reply:Millermatic 130, voltage 3, speed 50, wire .023, steel 14 guage, gas 75/25.I am plugged into a 15 amp outlet though, I will post again after I install a 20 amp outlet for this welder. Probably install it this afternoon, and try welding tonight or tomorrow.My practice welds looked good, then when I tried on the car, a noticable difference.Will I be able to grind these welds off and then weld over the same area? Someone posted here about not being able to weld over a heat affected area.What about the plug welds? Do you think they should hold this area?
Reply:What about using seam sealer around the outside of the plates to seal out moisture?
Reply:Also, I coated all metal surfaces with Bloxide from Eastwood. Expensive stuff, it has aluminum, and is a weld through primer. After, all these plates will get two coats of Rust Bullet, to match the rest of the frame.
Reply:Some of those welds didn't make into the joint, in addition to being cold.  Turn it up and aim the wire right into the joint.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:OK, installed a 20 amp circuit and increased voltage to 4 and speed to 55.Cut out the old welds, and did over. Attached Images
Reply:still looks cold, maybe leave the power and turn down the wire, or switch to straight co2Dynasty 200DXPassport plus w/ spoolmate 100victor 315c oxy/(act and prop)Miller digital elitemilwaukee power tools
Reply:Originally Posted by welderShaneI always herd to stitch weld a repair like this as it will allow it to flex where as doing a full solid weld could cause cracking down the line.
Reply:Your beads are improved, but as was suggested, you might turn the wire speed down and burn in a bit more. I won't say that you can rework your frame indefinitely, though. The thing about plug welds I find, is that they are a chore to remove. Short of blowing a hole clean through the entire plug weld, I don't know how else to remove them. Why remove them you say? Well, make sure your part is located correctly and is not gonna wear out, or need replacement any time soon. Plug welded trailer hitches come to mind.  Poundin', grindin, yellin' at 'em, pain to remove. But if needed, plug welds do add strength.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Your welds look like they are improving.  It is hard to tell from a picture and a mig is capable of laying down a nice looking bead that has no penetration into the base metal if not done properly.  Weld it solid.  Stitch welds help prevent distortion of sheet metal panels but you need to strengthen your repair as much as is feasible.I still think you should practice on some non critical welding projects before you finish your frame repair.  This is no place to be experimenting with your first welds."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:Thanks, by the way I'm not being stubborn about trying this myself. I have contacted local restoration shops, talked to people at car shows, searched on-line, etc.. No one wants to make house calls or has time. I can understand, its a small job, someone elses garage, on and on. Up until now I have been asking people with an automotive background. I also have an add on a popular car web site looking to hire someone to inspect or fix these welds. (no responses). There are local guys advertising industrial welding. I'm thinking one of these guys should be ok.
Reply:As already said:- an auto frame is NOT the place to learn or practice welds. - an auto frame repair patch should generally be done with the patch plate like this  in order to 'blend' the welds and stresses.- plug welds are NOT the proper way to weld a patch plate onto an auto frame.- leaving the repair plate and the original frame with a separation is just begging for trapped corrosion to destroy everything pretty quickly.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:The first thing you have to do is get yourself some cold galvanizing spray or weld through primer to rustproof your work,very important in unibody, the second is remove the peices you spot welded in and get a new peice of box section and try to maintain the same standard of thickness as other sections on your car; make it look appropriate, it isn't more work.The holes you welded are done incorrectly for automotive spot welds they are to big in size, try make them about 6 or 7 mm no larger and space them out about an inch and a quarter apart, and use plenty but for the pic you showed maybe put long lines three high all the way along the member.Spot welds are used to create a small haz and spread the stress around evenly and allow flex therefore no cracking.A good way to gauge how many you are going to need is to look at the rockers or A-pillar spot welds.You are also going to have to make or buy the appropriate type of spot weld tool, this keeps your spot weld plates snug against each other as you press the mig torch up against the member.You want to set your welder to spot and weld onto the stacked plates a button of steel about 3-4mm high, end result perfectly round, so your going to have to practice a few, you want it hot and fluid, but not so much that you melt a hole through the back.Then if you can put a dolly behind the spot weld and hammer the crown flat to stress relieve.The finsihed spot weld should be raised like a thin button and flat.Be careful not to create a sinusoidal profile when removing the peice you welded in prior because it makes welding new spotwelds hard to do.Try to do a good job if you are determined to do it go at it slowly, insurance companies now check vehicles for prior body work on new damage claims, so it can come back to bite you.here is a link that may help http://www.esabna.com/euweb/mig_handbook/592mig11_2.htm Attached Images
Reply:Ok,I did coat all surfaces with weld-through primer. Also, I just bought some 1/8th steel to fabricate the patch that others were talking about.Is this the idea?The red line is where the repair patch was welded in. Attached Images
Reply:Mostly.  You would need to make the reinforcing plate b-i-g-g-e-r.And also, you round the corners so that there are no sharp, pointy corners anymore.  Sharp or pointy means the stresses tend to get REAL big right at the points or transitions.  You want things (streses included) to 'flow' smoothly around things.  Curves are good.    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:OK,  Thanks for staying with me.....How this, Attached Images
Reply:OK, Some practice welds at different settings.I changed the wire to .030.So, MM130, 75/25 mix, 1/8th patch welded to 14 gauge.Looks to me like voltage 3 and speed 40 was my best effort.Very difficult making that turn, I seem to do better by making small circles rather than a zig-zag pattern.Thanks again for your advice.Also this was done in the upright position as per DSW. Thanks. Attached ImagesLast edited by chrisd6875; 11-10-2010 at 08:16 PM.Reason: additionCan you try and post another pict thats a bit better? It's tough to see that very well.A few thoughts that might help... Try some auxilery lighting rather than use the flash. Halogen work lights work well, but sometimes it helps if they aren't aimed right at the work. Back up and zoom in. Usually you gey it to focus better that way. If you have a macro mode try that as well. Also sometimes if you shoot a large area pict at high res, and then crop to just show the section you want, you'll get a clearer view..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:How about these.... Attached Images
Reply:Can you pull back and give a picture with about 5 feet of reference.It looks like all you did was coat the plate you spot welded badly.You know you could do a nice job of this if you wanted to.
Reply:i think those are just test peices,   not the actual part on the carBill BerryKeith Berry & Son Ltd.machine work, and weldingBear River Vollunteer FD
Reply:The way to fix damaged box section of a unibody frame is to try get a replacement peice from an auto wrecker or a car of similiar body style.You should not put any reinforcements like fishplate overtop in this manner, you will fail inspection and it will crack.To reinforce a box section like the one above you can buy it from a jobber panel dealer that sells rust repair panels(or have one made up) and slip the box section inside of the two mating panels before welding them up. So you would take the replacement section and prepare them for a butt weld and before doing the butt weld slip the reinforcement box section inside and use spot welds to adhere the reinforcement to the original panel and then new panel, then weld up the butt weld.Keep you HAz very small.
Reply:I think the reason you can get any car guys to help is LIABILITY! New guy+ car frame= void insurance, lawsuit, man slaughter charges,etc.200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.