This close to taking the plunge

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Hi guys,  I almost ordered my first welder just now but I put my credit card back in the wallet to ask for your last minute advice on a couple of things, so here goes:1. I'm having a tough time deciding if I should get a MM135 or a HH140.  Hobart is a cheaper by about $120 at cyberweld.com which should help pay for other items like the bottle, jacket, gloves etc. However, I really like the blue color  and the Miller reputation among the pros 2. HH180 is about $130 more than the HH140, I prefer the 115V unit for portability (even though I have an unused 220V circuit in the garage - but I can't take it elsewhere like a friend's house or the backyard etc). I've heard of people being able to use the MM and HH 115V units to fabricate space frames for kit cars and dune buggies which is the most welding I will ever do, if I ever did. However,  I do want to be able to build some small parts, brackets etc for cars and possibly a fun/go-kart (out of 7/8" round tubing) as a project, will HH140 or a MM135 work OK ? Yes, I understand about the duty cycle and at 20% it will take me a while to build anything extensive but I'm more concerned about the strength. After reading quite a bit about welding I realize that for strength I may have to use more than one pass (but don't quite understand what that means and how to find out how many passes something needs - but that's another topic  ).3. What else do I need to get started ? Unfortunately, I can't find any schools in the Los Angeles area (go figure) that offer weekend classes nor do I know anyone who welds so I'll be a self learner. I assume the welder comes with some basic video to start you off and after that its all practice ?Thanks for any last minute advice you can offer. I will be back bugging you guys with more questions once I get the welder  Cheers.
Reply:go blue, you won't regret itStangnetShop Full Of Stuff. Joey
Reply:I have a handful of welders, to include a 110v model.  Honestly, they never leave my garage.  The thing about the 110v models is that although they'll run off of just about any old 110v circuit, they really require a dedicated 20a circuit with big wires to carry the current.  It's not rally something you can take to a friend's house and plug into an extension cord plugged into an outside GFCI outlet, at least not if you want to weld anything larger than 1/16" since you'll be current limited.  That said, I use the 110v fairly often just because it's durn convenient to have something that small that I can drag around the garage close to whateve I want to weld.whodatIs it really worth getting that worked up over?
Reply:Whodat made some good points.  If you have to go to a friends house have a cord to reach 230V or run a circuit.  I would take the difference between the MM and the HH in the 135 class and go to the HH180. It is twice the machine for 20% more money. If you were playing poker this would be money well spent.www.urkafarms.com
Reply:Here's the real deal:Miller's reputation is well deserved, as is Hobart's.  They are both part of the same company, carry the identical warranty, are serviced by the same people, even use many of the same components.  In a lot of ways they are identical.  To suggest in general one is better than the other is silly (in this class of machine, as Hobart no longer makes true industrial machines).  I think most people saying that haven't come to grips with the fact that neither Hobart or Miller are the companies they once were, and are actually part of some massive corporation and built in the same plant.IMHO the Hobart is the machine to buy in that size range.  It is simpler and easier to learn on than the Miller.  I think most people familiar with both would agree with me.As far as size goes, I wouldn't own a 110V unit.  They are just too small to be a primary machine.  If you can only have one, get the 220V machine, and don't look back.  You won't regret it.  You seldom hear people talk about buying too much machine, but often hear people complaining about having too small a machine.Take it from someone who learned the hard way: welding is an addiction.   You think you'll start out small, and then as you figure out the range of things you can do you start upgrading equipment, and in the long run it would just be easier/cheaper to get the larger machine first.
Reply:I've used a 110v 135 amp mig for several years and have completed a lot of projects and repairs including some pretty extensive modifications to our sand rail.  It can be done but if I ever replace this unit it's going to be with a 220v 180 amp class machine.As the others have noted the input power quality is critical on these small machines, there just isn't any output you can afford to lose on any of the tubing gauge usually used on buggies.  Yea, you can spend additional time with joint prep, make sure you have good input power (I've replaced my welder line cord with heavy gauge and use an outlet close to the breaker box), perfect your technique but it's much easier to use a welder that's got the power you need.  You'll like the look of the joints better too ;-)As far as training, check into the Community Colleges.  I just finished up a few semesters of night classes at Orange Coast College in Costa Mesa.  Started from the basics with stick & oxy then took mig, tig and even orbital just to hang around the lab.  You can't beat the cost for all the electricity, gas and stuff you use plus you're exposed to a lot of equipment and techniques that have been invaluable to doing a "professional" job on these garage projects.  Welding wasn't as easy or intuitive as I'd thought ;-)Final note..  I just added a 220v / 200 amp TIG/Stick inverter box to the garage and I'm in welder heaven with having more than enough heat for what I'm doing.  Watch out..  the more projects you do the more equipment you want but dang it's fun :-)TinkerTinkerCentury 135GS, ThermalArc 250GTS
Reply:the hobart 140 unit is very very very easy to use for a newbie, me and the 14 year old boy are doing some pretty nice beads after reading the welding 101 stuff on the hobart site, we got it for 475.00 with cart at praxair in canoga park los angeles area, picked the rest of the stuff at harbor freight. however I dont have 230v so I had to go with the beefiest 115v unit I could find and you do need a dedicated  20a circuit with this unit.
Reply:It just like plasma cutters in some ways. Sometimes 120 volt power is the only thing around and you have to use what you have. I owned two Miller 130/130xp machines and they were very handy for doing car auto/body muffler work. You can build decent fence's with them,etc. If I only had one machine it would be a 240 volt unit and probably a inverter to boot. I always think the 120 volt units get a bad rap for being useless. That is not true at all.I use to plug my Millers in all over the place and never blew a fuse or Breaker. I would like to have another one but would prefer they built one like they use to. 120/240 volt operation.They could do that with inverters if they wanted too. It would cost more but it would be impossible discount how handy it would be. The model cost $900.00 when it came out and just could not really compete with the 200 amp welders that were around at the time. It is about like a 175 Lincoln or Hobart. I could of picked it up for about $250.00 and probably should have. Attached Images
Reply:Excellent suggestions, thank you all very much!
Reply:I found a guy through a friend who runs a race car setup and fabrication shop (he also races in SCCA). I spoke with him about my needs and he said the H140 will do just fine (welds 1/4" in one pass) for most of the automotive work. He said he's had several welders over the years and he used the 115V Miller for a while before moving up to better machines...he now has several including a few TIGs.Best of all he said he'll give me a few lessons on how to use the MIG (and even a TIG) if I was interested. He's attended the Miller motorsports program so hopefully I can learn a thing or two from him.I just went ahead and ordered the H140 with cart plus free shipping and no tax from cyberweld.com ($499 out the door). Need to get the gloves, jacket, hood and a bottle still which I'm thinking of picking up at the local Harbor Freight store.Do the bottles come empty ? How does the whole bottle exchange/refill system work ? do I go to a welding place with my empty bottle and get it refilled or do they give you a pre-filled bottle in exchange etc ?Can't wait to get the new toy!
Reply:Congrats, I'm sure you're going to have fun and find a zillion excuses for using your new welder to build and repair all kinds of stuff.I'd originally bought a couple of the smaller bottles (C25 and Argon) because the fit into the cart that came with my first welder.  I bring them to Airgas and they just exchange them for same size filled bottles.  Depending on the amount of welding that you're doing you may find that you're making fairly frequent trips for gas or running low at the wrong time.  The gas places I'm using have short hours on Saturday and are closed on Sunday.We've got a neighbor that was a tool dealer and he had a couple of the large (120 CF?) full tanks kicking around his garage for years.  One C25 and the other Argon.   I've been using them for what seems like forever compared to the small tanks.  I'm hoping to get them exchanged when they eventually do run out but their history and testing is a little fuzzy so I've got my fingers crossed.  I'm sold on the big tanks and suggest getting one if your cart will support it or if you don't mind rolling the tank around from time to time (and securing it to something solid!).  BTW, based on the prices I've heard for gas it's more economical (cost/cubic foot) to get the big tank filled too.They lease/rent tanks too but it seemed less complicated to just buy the first one.  I'll let somebody else comment about that approach.TinkerCentury 135GS, ThermalArc 250GTS
Reply:Don't buy the little 20 cf Harbor Frieght tank, you'll end up regretting it. I know I did, especially when I found out to fill the larger tank was only a couple of dollars more. The larger tanks don't cost to much more to buy either. Invest in the larger tank. You'll be glad you did.
Reply:I got a 120 cu/ft tank with C25 for $146.  Cost to refill ($24) is $5 more than a 40 cu/ft tank.Do the math...
Reply:For $50 I got a 5yr lease on 330 CF tanks.  Exchanges/refills are only about $15 more than on a 80CF.  I went with two tanks, and after using them for 6 months I am no where near out of gas....   Refill charges alone will make the lease payments, probably within the first year or so.I guess it depends on your usage, though.