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I have been taking my stuff to a friends and using his Lincoln TIG 175 for a while now and he is moving, so I was planning on buying a 185 this week. The problem is that I have a 100AMP panel in my house and I am taking 60 of those AMPs to my garage on 6guage wire, my compressor takes 20 and the wifes clothes drier another 20+ but I can keep them off while welding. I know the Lincoln will work on 60AMPs for probably everything I will do but I am really starving the house at that point. This evening while browsing, I saw what maybe my answer, HTP Invertig 201, if I read the website correctly it will do everything I need and especially cool run on a 30AMP circuit. The 185 was $1,700 + tax, the HTP appears to be $2,300 so the price different is not a killer. No sales tax on the HTP but I see issues of getting repairs since that not local but is that really a problem ? I always thought of HTP as junk and the only stuff I considered was Miller and Lincoln, based on reading the web I was wrong. I really like the idea of the power draw and it has pulse which I have never used but think I want. I will be welding steel rarely above 1/4" thick and thin aluminium 1930's British race bodies. For thick steel I do have a lincoln SP125 MIG anyway. Should I consider the HTP ? Just because of the 30AMPs it looks too good to be true and I know that old saying about what looks to good to be true.
Reply:I bought a HTP plasma cutter......it got here and had a dent on the side of it...poorly packed...no styro on the sides, just carboard...so the dent was right there on the side. Duhhh. You'd think they could pack their products. Toggle switch and knob on the front of it were crappy dime store imported junk. I invoked their "satisfaction guaranteed" clause and told them I wanted to return it.....I did, and they made me pay the freight BOTH ways (which I didn't mind all that much), but what really torqued me was their crappy attitude about it. Convinced me I will NEVER buy anything from them again. And.....my Lincoln mig welder has top quality switches, etc. Besides Lincoln and Miller, the only other co. I would consider buying from is Thermal Arc. Have you looked at their TA 185 Tig machine? About $1700-and some delivered, on eBay and elsewhere. For that price, it comes with torch, and foot pedal. People on weld forums rant about how good it is. It is made in Japan for them by a co. called Sanrex and I have never heard a bad thing about it. Another good choice is the Miller Dynasty 200 DX....more expensive, but top notch. Both of these machines are inverter based so the amp draw will be low.
Reply:mikeyr,the new Lincoln is one sweet machine,I've welded up to 1/4" and haven't had to turn the amperage past 150.I have mine on a 50amp breaker,and haven't tripped it yet.I think you'll be fine with either machine in your garage,provided you keep the dryer and the compressor off when welding.I'm not really sold on the inverters yet,I have a craftsman colormatic stick machine that was bought new in 1969,and it still runs fine.The only thing i've replaced is the leads and rodholder.Anyway good luck with your purchase,and remember to compare both machines as a whole,not just input requirements.......Cat
Reply:Good point about comparing both machines as a whole, I was blinded by the low current draw and I don't even know what an inverter machine is and how it affects the weld or the technique of the user doing the weld if any. I spoke to my friend about it and he says the HTP is a good machine but he has a Lincoln so that if it breaks (and he does not expect to) he can get it fixed anywhere. I will go read up on the TA 185 right now, I have some projects that need welding and my friend already packed up his Lincoln (why did he have to move away?)
Reply:so what is the difference between a inverter TIG and a non-inverter TIG. I am now leaning to a TA 185, it seems to be the best of everthing for me, including low power draw. Catfish said he was not "sold" on inverters yet, what is the difference ? I see the TA 185 as a potential problem when all those electronics start to fail but maybe I am being over cautious due to the expense. The HDT is nice but a bit much $$$ for this hobby welder but I can do it if I need it. Being new to this type of welding, what are the features I need to look for ? Pulse I think I want based on marketing. By the way, I have been Oxy/acy welding for 20 years, got my MIG last year. If I read the TA 185 specs correctly it has all the features of the Lincoln just named differently.Last edited by mikeyr; 03-28-2005 at 09:15 PM.
Reply:The advantage of the inverter type machine is it is ADVANCED squarewave technology, not just square wave technology. You have much more control of the arc when welding AC tig for aluminum. You can vary the AC output frequency and not have to use a balled end tungsten for a more precise weld bead. The controls are better. Go and read about advanced squarewave technology at Lincoln amd Miller's web sites. The inverter machines will do everything and more that the transformer machines will do, and in a small lightweight package that uses a lot less power out of the wall. I am not a tig welder, but if I become one, I won't buy anything but a inverter machine. Go to this talk forum on Miller's web site and search on this topic...you'll get a grunch of info.http://www.millermotorsports.com/mbo...isplay.php?f=3
Reply:I have been welding over 20 years, and used just about every name brand machine. I bought a thermal arc 185 tsw last year. It is the smoothest machine I have ever run. My dealer sells lincolns, millers, hobarts, and thermal arcs. I was sckeptical at first, but my dealer insisted I should try the thermal arc. I was impressed. The next day I was back with cash in hand. Demo a miller or lincoln, the try a thermal arc... Keep on smashen those cars- show me the money.
Reply:wow.....makes me want to buy the thermal arc, even though I'm not the guy that started this thread. I sure have heard lots of good things about the TA 185. Seems like a great value for a little over $1700 with about everything included. The Miller 200DX is awesome but about 800 to 1,000 more to get the torch and foot pedal with it.
Reply:Bodyman,did you demo the Miller Dynasty 200 DX? Do you use you TA 185 a lot? Has it held up well?
Reply:well unfortunately, my local shop can sell the TA 185 and he can take care of sending out for repair if it needs but he does not have one in the shop for me to try. He is also very expensive compared to what I have seen on e-bay, I bought my MIG from him and my bottles so he knows i will be in for that at least. He has never sold a TA. So anyway, I have been reading all over the web about these and I have found one flaw, very little to no support. A lot of electronics to go bad and I have found Miller, Lincoln chat boards like this one but not TA. That kind of bothers me a little as I am worried about how long term reliable they are (realizing that model has only been on the market for a year), I did download the owners manual. Guess its time to quit thinking and buy the thing. Hope its not a expensive mistake in a few months. I will of course brag or whine about it when I get it.
Reply:One thing people forgot about the Dynasty's is that it can run on three different power sources. 120..220..440...That means if you can can take it just about anywhere and use it. On DC voltage (mild steel) you can run up to 150 amps on 120v. That extra grand in price over the TA185, means you still get parts and support long after the warranty is over. And someone in the states who knows how to fix them. It's an agonizing decision. I've been there. Never once regretted my decision...HTH...Millermatic 210Dynasty 200DX Fisher CZ-5Trek 5500
Reply:Originally Posted by Wheatup to 150 amps on 120v. That extra grand in price over the TA185, means you still get parts and support long after the warranty is over.
Reply:Well be sure to let us know what you bought. I lean to the Miller.....built in America, will take any power input, Miller's great support. On the other hand...I have yet to read a note where someone had any kind of problem at all with the Thermal Arc 185. It must be a great product. If $ were not an issue, I'd buy the Miller Dynasty 200DX. If $ are a very big issue....I'd buy the TA 185. But whatever I eventually do buy (if I buy a Tig), it will be an inverter machine.
Reply:I do painting and bodywork for a local const co. They have 2 dynastys, I tried theres before I bought my ta. It was a nice machine, but in alumn the ta out preforms it by a long shot, in my oponion. My welding supplier repairs the ta at there store. That was an issue with me also. Knock on wood I havent had any problems with my machine yet. And it gets alot of use. I do mostly resto work, so I prefer it over my mig most of the time. I did a swap with the dealer, when I bought it. I didnt want the foot control. I prefer a torch mounted slider myself. I rarely do any welding on a bench, and am usually in to awkward of a position to use a foot control. I own a bodyshop, so you can imagine the positions on a vehicle you have to get into. Keep on smashen those cars- show me the money.
Reply:thanks for the info, bodyman. you say the TA 185 outperformed the dynasty in aluminum??? is that just a general impression or what specifically do you mean in how it outperformed it? it is interesting how many people rave about that Thermal arc 185.does your slider operate with the thumb? was it hard to get used to?
Reply:Sorry, but I disagree with rain 252 as far as HTP's customer service. I bought a MTS 160 unit from them months back and have nothing but good to say about them. I have had good shipping time, all items shipped and in new/good condition, follow up from the company after recieving the unit, and info promptly sent from the president of the company himself including not only the pros of the unit, but also the cons before I purchased the unit. I cant speak for the Invertig 201, but, I do know I would not part with my MTS 160.A few of my toys !LinuxMintManjaroMiller Roughneck 2E Lincoln WeldPak 100HTP MTS 160 Chicago Electric 80amp Inverter Victor O/A
Reply:I use my pointing finger on the slider. I have the slider on the top of the handle. It attaches with velcro, you can put it on however you want. As far as performance goes. You ever dip your tungsten in the puddle of molten alumn by accident? What happens? Keep on smashen those cars- show me the money.
Reply:bodyman,well, I have only tig'd a couple times during a demo, so I'm not a tig welder by any stretch.........what does happen? does it crap up the tungsten? smawgmaw,I'm glad you had a better experience with HTP than I did. If a company is going to offer "satisfaction guaranteed" then they need to stand behind it and not get crappy about it when a customer decides to take that option. They were crappy with me and it bugged me enough I will not give them another opportunity. After I got all done with them, I was pissed, and I don't go looking for trouble. I will give a company hell if they deserve it, and I will give a company praise when they deserve it. Besides, the workmanship on the plasma cutter they sent was inferior to the Lincoln and Miller equipment I own or have been around. Chinky little switches that screamed imported. Just my opnion and experience with them.....not trying to get anyone to agree with me. But since it WAS my experience, I will tell anyone that wants to know my opnion of HTP. And they ain't gettin another dollar out of me....and that is a guarantee.
Reply:rain 252, sorry you were treated that way by them. Not taking up for them or trying to promote their company, just my experience in dealing with them. I know how you feel to get treated the way you did as I have been down that road with other companies before. By the way, I was considering a plasma unit from HTP, which one did you buy and return so that I will know which one to steer away from?A few of my toys !LinuxMintManjaroMiller Roughneck 2E Lincoln WeldPak 100HTP MTS 160 Chicago Electric 80amp Inverter Victor O/A
Reply:The guy at my local Praxair actually says HTP is pretty good, but he pushed either Lincoln or Miller as a preference. I drove to L.A. yesterday and tried out the Thermal Arc and well, it welded. Not sure what I can say since I am not a great welder to begin with, I did let me lay a nice bead on aluminium and I was able to join 2 20guage steel pieces without burning holes in them (unlike my MIG where I would have burned holes). The decision has been made, TA 185, trying to support my local guy but he is $294 more than the guys on ebay, so it will probably be ebay. I will report back when I have it next week. Thanks for all the discussion, I would have skipped inverters completely and gone with the Lincoln 185 if I had not asked.
Reply:smawgmaw,I totally agree with you that we are going to be affected by our particular experiences. The important thing is how did they treat you, and if you have been pleased, then thats all that matters. Maybe I just got them on a bad day or it was the person I dealt with. Who knows. The plasma cutter I ordered was their small one, it was an inverter type.I never even fired it up. For all I know it may perform great. I didn't start it because of the dent on the side, and they offered to send another one, but I declined because I felt the construction didnt indicate the quality that I feel can be had for not much more money. I ended up buying a Hypertherm just a couple weeks ago. They have been doing plasma cutters for a long time. But if you have had good luck with HTP, thats the best reason I can think of to stick with them. Besides.......you always have their "satisfaction guarantee".....if you don't like it, you can always just pay the shipping and return it. Since they will take them back from other people, I would make sure they agree to send you a new-in-the-box unit. The only thing you're risking is "two-way" shipping....as I believe in the end, I think they refunded only the price of the machine. But I ma be wrong about that part of it...its been a good while.
Reply:mikeyr,glad you like your TA 185. There sure are a ton of people who like them.I may get one myself one of these times.
Reply:well it keeps getting complicated...I still have not received my TA 185 and now I am told it will be yet another week. My local Praxair guy that I have been buying from for 20+ years has "made me a deal" on a Precision TIG 185, works out to $100 less than the TA and I can have it this afternoon. I have a 60 AMP panel into the garage and I will have to make sure the wife is not running her clothes drier but other than that, I am back to Lincoln unless someone can talk me out of in the next hour or so. I have stuff I would have liked to weld this weekend.
Reply:you'd throw away advanced square wave technology, throw away a small amp draw for a big amp draw and restrict the usage of electricity around the house while using it, throw away a 40 lb machine for a 200 lb machine......in other words, to save $100 and 1 week you are going to toss all those advantages?? did you ever go read what advancd sq. wave arc control is all abaout??If all this doesn't get through, I would just say....go buy that big, old technology, heavy Lincoln and have a ball!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply:yup, i did read about advanced square wave but I am not sure I am a good enough welder to tell the difference. This is strictly a hobby welder for me because I am too lazy to take my car parts in to someone and have them welded also the convinience of doing it now. I was quite happy with my friends Lincoln 175 that did not have pulse and AC balance. I have 3 or 4 more years before this car is on the road so I have the week to wait for the TA. Critical suspension and chassis parts, I tack up and take to have welded by a pro because I am not good enough, what I need is be able to weld up all the non-critical parts like exhaust, various brackets, etc. And the body is 70 year old cracked all over Aluminium (the reason for TIG over MIG). I did not get to the shop to pick up the Lincoln yesterday so the TA is still on its way for now. by the way, my wife has a solution to the power problem, remodel the kitchen and the new range she wants requires more power so we would have to upgrade the house panel from 100 to 200AMPS, isn't she nice the way she thinks of helping me in the garage.Don't you think your skills are going to improve as you continue to weld things? A lot of people on weld forums say to buy more than you need now becasue you will outgrow what you are able to use now. Since you're going to be welding aluminum, you are going to be happy you waited for the TA 185....that is where the advanced arc control is going to be a lot better. You made a good decision you waited, but I'm not sure you understand why yet. You will, when you see how much more capable the inverter machine is than the old transformer type Lincoln. And the space savings etc., etc.The Lincoln is a fine machine, for its time. But for $100 to be able to have the best Tig technology (inverter) is a slam-dunk decision.Last edited by rain252; 04-09-2005 at 02:41 PM.
Reply:The one advantage to the older transformer machines is they are easy to trouble shoot if a problem comes up. Sure they are only squarewave, not advanced squarewave output but it worked for years that way. If you liked the 175 then you might like the less complicated PT185 over a TA 185. Sure it uses more power, but they are tough. I'll stick with my Miller transformer unit.
Reply:those are some good points. One of the few negatives of the TA 185 is it is made in japan. Some people have questioned how hard it would be to get warranty work done. on the up side....everybody who has one seems to say they never have a problem. Miller has great customer support. If money were no object, I would buy the Miller Dynasty 200DX. But then......money usually is a concern for most of us.
Reply:well the TA never arrived, it was promised 2 weeks ago on Friday and didn't make it, it was promised last Friday and didn't arrive, went and picked up the Lincoln 185 and yeah, I gave up a lot of things on the TA but they are things I didn't know anyway. Might miss them someday, might not. No more worries about reliabiity and getting it repaired. Not sure what the hold up on the TA was, they claimed to have them in stock when I bought it but didn't have it in stock after I gave them my money. My local guy here made me one hell of a deal, matched the ebay prices on the machine and then gave me a box of cups along with a different back for the torch (free), a few tips and 6lbs of different fill wire and a bottle of argon at his cost, sometimes it pays to support your local guy as I have for 20+ years. Rain, a few weeks ago you asked me if I was not planning on improving my welding skills so that the TA features would come in handy, the answer is yes and no. I don't weld often enough to really build up my skills, welding is just a infrequently used tool to keep my cars on the road so I have the Lincoln and I welded some scrap body steel as practice, it works. Maybe a advance square wave would have helped but after grinding and painting I don't see how it would have. It is HEAVY though and sure takes the AMPS.
Reply:My buddy has a Lincoln AC180S, can anyone give me an estimated age?
Reply:Hello, I am new here, but I wanted to point out that my Sales Rep that sold me my Lincoln 185 told me to use a 30 amp breaker. IT seems to go to town at full throttle...Of course I am still learning how to use it.
Reply:30AMP for the Lincoln PT 185 ??? Wow, my rep told me 50AMP and the manual says 50, I am running on 40AMP because its what I had and so far have not blown the breaker but I am welding thin stuff. Nice big breaker will be put in this coming week when we upgrade the main house panel.
Reply:I was out there today with it set at max and was welding (OK burning up) like crazy. I really think 30 is big enuf to max out this machine.
Reply:To wire the supply right for the Lincoln Tig 185, you really need to provide at least a 50 amp circuit. This means #6 AWG wires (in the walls) with a 50 amp breaker.#6 will carry 55-65 amps (depending on where you look it up). 50 is a big breaker size that is readily available (typical amp ratings are 50-amp for #6 wire, 40 for #8 wire, 30 for #10 wire, 20 for #12 wire, 15 for # 14 wire) . The main thing is to be sure not to have a breaker that is too large for the size of the wires.....this would be a fire hazard as the wires would then be the limiting component. The cable from the wall to the machine is usually smaller wire size from the mfr., because wire that is in open air is rated to carry higher amperage due to better heat dissipation in open air.I say all this because if you look at the specs for the 185 on Lincoln's web site, it says that 64 amps is the input amps for "rated" output......185 welding amps at a 15% duty cycle. I would not run this welder on a 30-amp circuit it you can provide 50-amp circuit for it. If you do and you're welding heavier metal, you'll probably just trip the breaker. But why challenge it? Just provide at least a 50 amp circuit if you can. And.....consider that most welder mfr.s quote "rated" output specs.....rated is not as high (usually) as "full" output, which would demand even more amps input, even though you couldn't run it long until tripping a protective device in the welder and causing it to shut down to protect itself. Moral of the story....provide a supply circuit that will handle the highest "rated" output of the machine, with maybe a small extra margin if possible. This is exactly one reason why the inverter based welders are superior.....you'll use less juice and so can provide a smaller supply circuit for it.Last edited by rain252; 04-25-2005 at 01:48 AM.
Reply:Still, I dont want to argue, but at 30 amps (with proper wire size rated for the task) I have yet to even get my breaker warm? Does this mean my welder is not pulling enuf current to hit the 185 the display is showing? Perhaps, but I wanted to point out that if a guy has 100 amps in his garage box and only has 30 left he can use this machine with no ill performance. Being realistic, I doubt if I would need to weld at 185 for very long for what I do out there, if I needed the duty cycle it would be an easy change for me as I have huge room in my pannel, but the guy who sold me this unit supply's may fab shops and factory's so I took him at his word.
Reply:FXRocket,You know, if you're doing it on a 30-amp circuit and not popping the breaker open, what the heck. If you kept going at full output, I would imagine you'd trip the breaker at some point. It would be interesting if you had access to a clamp-on style amprobe so you could have someone measure the current draw on one of the hot legs coming out of the breaker. I'd be interested to hear what amps you saw when you have the machine at the high end.Have to figure ampacity ratings for wire have some safety buffer built into them. And when you consider that the cord that was built onto the machine at the factory seems to be smaller than the supply wire size recommended, you'll probably be just fine on that 30-amp circuit. Its just that with electricty, with all the energy involved and the hazard being fire, its best not to pull the tiger by the tail, if possible, by giving it plenty of room..... big wires to flow through.Also, with a 100-amp service in that box, I believe it is ok if all the loads attached add up to more than 100 amps. Thats because it is assumed you won't be running ALL the loads at the same time. But you wouldn't want it to be a LOT more than 100. I'm sure an electrician reading this can look up NEC code and tell us numbers. Please correct me if I am wrong about this, but isn't that pretty much the gist of it, electricians?Last edited by rain252; 04-28-2005 at 04:18 AM.
Reply:I know I would be more concerned about using a 40 or 50 amp breaker with the wire I am using. I would rather the breaker be the weak link than the wire gauge... If it (the wire) were undersized for the breaker or load it would cause more heat in the breaker would it not? I am not an electrician so I really do not know for certain. I did have an amprobe laying about, if I can get someone to measure it while I weld I will let you know! Altho I may have trashed it in the last garage sweep...
Reply:The problem with having a conductor (the wire) being fed by a breaker that is over-sized is that the wire, as you said, becomes the weak link. The protection against overheating the wire and causing a fire has been taken out of the picture by the breaker being too big. #10 wire should be fed by a 30-amp breaker. #10 is rated for 30 amps. If a 50-amp breaker is used, then more than 50 amps will have to be going through that wire until the breaker decides it is time to trip. No, having a smaller wire fed by a "too big" breaker will not cause overheating of the breaker. Overheating is caused by more current than a device is designed to handle. The overheating will be in the wire because it does not have the right breaker to trip and protect it from overheating. Will the #10 wire overheat and start a fire? Very possible if the currrent is over 30 amps and applied long enough. In cars, they have a device called a fusible link. Its just a piece of wire rated to burn in two and open a circuit that has too much current flowing in it. When people put oversize breakers on a circuit to keep the breaker from tripping, they have really created their own fusible link and are rolling the dice with the fire hazard. All circuits have to be supplied by the appropriate size breaker for the wire size.Last edited by rain252; 05-02-2005 at 12:23 PM. |
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