This Is Going To Be Fun!!

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Finally something to weld that's "Interesting"..Anyone know exactly what this is called?I know they are exhaust parts for a big azz boat..Bayshore with a "Hino" diesel in it..Owner can not buy these (2) anywhere soooooooo...We are gonna make'm!!I took these pics last week as we were going over our options..So far here is some stuff...Here is a rough draft mock up..Now the boys have been at it all week machining the angles and other parts that are needed..Now there is a whole pile of parts to weld..I'm starting the assy process tomorrow A.M.The boat owner has been "involved" from the start..I asked if it's a salt water boat and he said yes..I questioned using steel in a salt enviorment and he said "That's not for you to worry about"...Ok I'm not worried now..This is gonna be fun..There are lots of parts...And it's all mine!!!!BWHAAAA HAAA HAAAA!!!..Do stay tuned..I get all the fun jobs.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Be sure to take and keep good notes. Steel in salt water means job security. You may have to do it again. I wondering if maybe he's selling the boat and is just going to let the next owner figure out what to do when it rusts out.
Reply:I know what it is now, it's an anchor! City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Yep, a disappearing anchor!!Zap's right, he gets all the cool jobs!!*Rick*Having just enough knowledge to be dangerous!
Reply:Most of those big saltwater boats run a closed cooling system using a raw water pump and a heat exchanger.  The raw (saltwater) runs through a kind of radiator along with the coolant (best I can remember).  I'm sure someone will chime in with specifics, I've only worked on one boat with this type of system.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Now this is interesting. Its going to be made out of solid steel right? Not those tube things right? Isn't that cast? I got to see this.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterAnyone know exactly what this is called?...zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by littlefuzzMost of those big saltwater boats run a closed cooling system using a raw water pump and a heat exchanger.  The raw (saltwater) runs through a kind of radiator along with the coolant (best I can remember).  I'm sure someone will chime in with specifics, I've only worked on one boat with this type of system.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterFinally something to weld that's "Interesting"..The boat owner has been "involved" from the start..I asked if it's a salt water boat and he said yes..I questioned using steel in a salt enviorment and he said "That's not for you to worry about"...Ok I'm not worried now.....zap!
Reply:a little primer and a couple of cans of krylon and you'll be good to go
Reply:Originally Posted by prop-doctora little primer and a couple of cans of krylon and you'll be good to go
Reply:Cool Zap Can't wait to see the finished product.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:I don't care if it lasts or not, I want to see you build it!David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:cool zap but i would build it out of 330 ssChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:Thanks everyone for the comments..But at this stage of the game I'm just doing what I'm asked..OK now here's todays progress so far..Getting "set up"..After figureing where bevels and champhers go it's ready to go..\Sub assy..Welds..Next!...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Couple more pics..I think there is 6 or 7 more pieces to this..Then another complete assy after that..Well it's time to relax and have a few It will be noontime soon and then we commence with the More on Monday......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:once again Z man, nice welds. at least they will be the last thing to rust away."Retreat hell, were just fighting in the other direction"Miller Trailblazer 302, Extreme 12 VS, Dimension 400, Spectrum 375, HF 251D-1, Milermatic 251 w/ spoolgun  Hypertherm 1000Lincoln sp 1702000 F-450 to haul it
Reply:What does it do?Me!
Reply:looks good ZAPChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:Originally Posted by Me!What does it do?
Reply:is that piece watercooled? it looks like it has waterjacket plugs or something. is the new one going to be watercooled?
Reply:There's a reason the original elbows were cast.The elbows you're fabbing up won't last a season in salt water.Boat is probably a Bayliner.  Bayliner used a lot of the Hino diesels (only builder that I know of that did).  Bayliner owner's were never too concerned with quality/longivity or they wouldn't have bought the boat they did.I'm kinda surprized that a company like BARR doesn't make a replacement elbow for that application.  They're generally a lot cheaper also than the OEM.Personally, I would never have taken on that job, knowing full well that the part is destined to fail (due to no fault of the welder).  When it does fail, the exhaust gases will be dumped directly into the engine compartment and the raw water will be pumped into the bilge.  Could create a very DANGEROUS situation.I've had the end caps blow off the back of a SENDURE heat exchanger and dump several hundred gallons of water into the bilge before the hi-water alarms went off.  The raw water pumps on those engines pump several thousand gallons per hour.  That's nothing compared to an exhaust failure.  On many of the Bayliners, the engines are mounted very low in the bilge.  Should an elbow let go, you may get backflow thru the exhaust into the bilge, thereby sinking the boat.I'd make sure that the owner signed a release before you let the part out of the shop.Bottom Line:  Only a fool would ask that someone "weld him up a set of exhaust elbows" and a bigger fool would take on the job.Last edited by SundownIII; 04-28-2008 at 08:32 PM.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Bottom Line: Only a fool would ask that someone "weld him up a set of exhaust elbows" and a bigger fool would take on the job.
Reply:SundownIII, did you just call Zap a fool? Oh. Ok. Just checking.Dude, you have a great way with people.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:Hey Zap,Any chance that the guy is having you make up a prototype for him to later make molds out of and use stainless or something? Maybe send it out to china for manufacturing? Or is that lame in that he could have used the originals for molds?Just wondering because of his reply "that's not for you to worry about."Not everyone gives the laborer the full story....just my experience.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brainJoker,Let's get one thing straight.  I call it like I see it.I am an engineer by training and have had to stand behind my product for many years.I have also been in the marine industry for more years than I care to think about.There are times the customer is NOT RIGHT and needs to be told that.  That exhaust elbow carries the exhaust and raw water out the stern of the boat.  Elbows deteriorate from the inside out so any failure is likely to be catastrophic and with little warning.  In a best case scenario the bilge (and subsequently the entire boat) would be filled with carbon monoxide creating an extremely dangerous environment for any occupant.  In a worst case scenario, the carbon monoxide would be combined with thousands of gallons of raw water, potentially sinking the boat.  The raw water pumps on those diesel engines are designed to pump several thousand gallons of water/hr (much more than any standard bilge pump can handle).  Some of the better yacht builders (Viking for instance) even plumb the raw water pumps so they can be used as a crash pump in an emergency.Exhaust elbows are not something a normal "welding shop" should be taking on.  If you don't believe me, call Florida Exhaust Systems and ask them what they think about a set of welded cold steel elbows.In the event of an accident (a given I feel) the insurance company will deny payment because a non OEM part was substituted.  Furthermore, no creditable marine surveyor would ever overlook such a gross transgression, consequently the boat will never "pass survey".What we have here is a boatowner trying to be "cheap" and a shop that doesn't understand the ultimate liability.  Not a very good combination in my book.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIWhat we have here is a boatowner trying to be "cheap" and a shop that doesn't understand the ultimate liability.  Not a very good combination in my book.
Reply:Keep posting these odd ball fixes. I'm in the same boat, customer wants something ya do the best you can to give 'em what they want. When it's possible I try to talk some sense into people but in the end they pay the bill they get to be boss.
Reply:After nearly 30 years in the marine business, (stated several times I'm not particularly a welder by trade, although some amount of it is required) I have to say this:  Sundown makes some valid and verifiable points.On the other hand... I would never call to question Zap's judgement.  He does have the company "veil" to protect him. (So long as he, personally, isn't contracted to do the work). I think it's fair to feel that it wont be the welding that causes the failure!Either way, it's unfortunate to be put into this position. To be forced (to remain employed) into doing something when you know it has the possibility of injuring someone, especially the innocent, (friends, family, kids, etc...) To Zap: Keep it up man! There's damn few that don't eagerly await your next post, myself included...  If I needed a job done, you can weld for me any day!, just not that piece.To the rest of the board:  Really guys... this is an opportunity to learn about something you don't all see every day.  One of the most important things you can know about welding, is "when not to weld".  There's a bigger picture than just whether it can be done, and if it looks good when it's completed. FYI:  Even the "Hot Boats" running open headers outside of an enclosed engine compartment use water jacketed headers...  Ever wonder why?The best things in life all come on a stick!
Reply:This customer is an idiot!  He just must be trying to fix it good enough to get rid of the boat and to hell with whoever buys it.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Look Guys..and Gals for that matter..I am an EMPLOYEE..I do what is asked to the best of my abilities...Sure..In the past I have questioned alot of what I am asked to do..Not just where I am now but everywhere where I have been employed...The bottom line is that I get my $$$$$$ from what I can do..The place where I am now has been in buisness for 50 yrs under the same family name so they must be doing something right..I don't think they are worried and neither am I..The boat owner "Runs The Show"  and I'm pretty sure the bosses think the same thing...Who is to say that it won't work anyway???I'm done with this..I'll continue to post pics of the project but as far as it goes now..No comment....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:every post on this board turns into an arguement with someone calling someone else wrong or incorrect or whatever the case may be.  Its almost as bad as pirate 4x4, which i dont read anymore for a reason...im interested in the pics, and how you did acheived the results, so i say keep it coming.just out of curiousity, how would zap go to his boss and say he didnt want to continue with the part anyways?  "hey boss, some engineers on the internet told me this thing wont work, so im not gonna build it"  if i did something like that at my job, id be getting 2 checks, and the second one isnt a bonus hahagranted you guys who work around marine applications are probably correct, i say let the man continue =)
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterLook Guys..and Gals for that matter..I am an EMPLOYEE..I do what is asked to the best of my abilities...
Reply:Originally Posted by drivethruboy54"hey boss, some engineers on the internet told me this thing wont work, so im not gonna build it"  if i did something like that at my job, id be getting 2 checks, and the second one isnt a bonus hahagranted you guys who work around marine applications are probably correct, i say let the man continue =)
Reply:believe me, i have no problem walking away from something i feel is unsafe, or that in not capable of doing, ive done it before, ill do it again, .My point was the point your making, dont take the internet;s word for anything, do your own research, talk to someone in the know.  When i build something, i make it my business to know everything i can about it.as far as calling bosses and customer fools, in my opinion, not the greatest idea.  I was taught to never burn a bridge, it may come back to bite you in the end.  I have learned the hard way (seems to be the only way i know how to learn anything) and im still learning.  To each his own, im sure you have no problem finding business.Personally i find it slightly offensive comparing nazis who were purposely murdering people, to welding an exhaust elbow.  Your talking apples and oranges, i understand your point, but its not the same.  The fact that every has to be scared about anything they do these days is a crock of you know what in itself.  Everybody is so consumed with trying to sue one another, it makes me not want to leave my house for fear that i may be sued for anything i do.  One of the people who taught me to weld was an ex lawyer, got out of law because nothing is about morals, ethics or the like, its about the consequences for the prior in dollars.anyways i think everyone is entitled to there opinion, and i enjoy reading them all.
Reply:Originally Posted by mark8310Same defense used by the nazi germans at the Nuremburg trials ....  didn't work there.  Here in the US, today, it is very clear it isn't a defense here either.
Reply:Bravo Brett.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:well said Brett  I'm not one to pizz in anyones pocket(aussie slag saying but I think you guys will work it out must mean near the same thing over there ) but I like to see work that others do so keep it coming zap Last edited by wello; 04-30-2008 at 07:32 AM.Creative metal Creative metal Facebook
Reply:Yeah, forget all of the negative comments from some of these guys Zap. They don't speak for all of us. I am interested to see the finished product. Keep up the good posts!Lincoln AC/DC 225/125 Stick Linde HDA-300 MillerMatic DVI MIG Miller Dynasty 200DX Hypertherm Powermax 1000
Reply:Sundown...It's called tact...Look it up if you don't know the definition.  Just because you've been an engineer for years doesn't give you the license to be a prick.Seriously, if you want people to respect what you have to say, exercise a little tact.  I've read a couple of your posts, and you seem to have to valid points; but nobody wants to listen to somebody who is so rude and insulting.  Speaking for myself, the rest of your posts will get ignored, no matter how correct you may be, because I really can't stand your attitude.  At this point I'm wondering if I'm feeding a Troll...  I'm constantly amazed at what people will say on the internet that they'd never say to another person face-to-face...Brett makes a good point, it is easy to be an anonymous hero(or jerk)...Zap, keep up the good welding work and keep the pictures coming...I'll second a recommendation to gently and tactfully press for some more information on the job, or a warning for the customer.  Tell'em you were curious and dug up some info on the internet(and find something besides this forum) that makes you question the judgement or rationale for what you're doing...Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:There is nothing wrong with SundownIII's post.  He laid it on the line in plain English.  IF you were shocked, or took offense, you missed the point.  Some things just shouldn't be played with - It just isn't worth the risk.  Regardless of what they are made of, OR who builds them, these will inevitably fail...... It is a given.I currently work as an "Employee" too, and as such, am bound to do pretty much whatever my employer tells me.  That being said, I also have the "Right Of Refusal" and can refuse any work that I feel is unsafe, OR I can stop it until details are corrected to where I feel it is safe to proceed. I personally would not do this project.  The consequences are too great.This is on a pleasure boat so obviously the owner has money.If he can afford the boat, he can afford to purchase the correct OEM or replacement parts.Just my take on it.Last edited by Black Wolf; 04-30-2008 at 09:50 AM.Later,Jason
Reply:zapster-non illegitimatum carborundum(latin- "dont let the bastards wear you down")
Reply:I like......lamps.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Well folks I just showed my boss this thread and he read it all..Here is his quote..."PFFFTTTTTT!!!!I guess nobody has any balls now-a-dayzeThey will be sent out for "Jet Hot" coating after and the rust ends there"So I guess thats it huh?More pics to come soon.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:That's right people are spine-less now-a-days. So scared of being sued and losing their material possessions. Ah, boo-hoo. You know what, sooner or later, 50% of this great United States will be in poverty again anyway. Anyone remember the Great Depression? The dollar is getting weaker by the day. The 10% of the people with the money control 90% of the economy. Those same 10% are killing off manufacturing as we know it from their uncontrollable greed. Wal-Mart alone took 52 BILLION dollars just in the Southeast sector in quarterly profits. Then they take that 52 billion and buy 88% of their products WHICH ARE IMPORTED FROM CHINA. This is a known fact. We sit, we watch TV and we eat fast food...and try not to get sued. Too bad more people like Zap and his boss don't have balls. :RANT OFF:John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:First off, I am always impressed with your work.  More importantly to the owner, the single wall construction is probably a really bad idea.  I like the JetHot idea and think that will buy some time.  The owner should really reconsider the single wall construction because of how incredibly hot the metal will get in an enclosed engine compartment.  There are alot of hoses with important fluids running through the engine bay that will melt if they come in contact with the exhaust in a single wall application.  Even the exhaust wrap will not be enough to keep surface temps under control.  Boats run at moderate to high power levels any time that they are on plane which means extended high temp operation.  Whatever they choose, it's not going to become your problem or fault, but they really should have you make the same thing in double wall, preferably 316l.  They are really risking burning or sinking their boat.  Just my $.02.  Keep showing us pictures of you projects.  I always am interested in checking them out.ReneLast edited by zerepener; 04-30-2008 at 12:00 PM.
Reply:BlackWolf, you are also incorrect. There was something wrong with Sundown's post. And just as he stated.....I call it like I see it. He could simply state that Zap had a bad idea and that he disapproved. His post was offensive in tone but his post crossed the line when the name calling started. That's the end of it. No need to reply.Zap, I want to see the final product so please keep the pics coming. I used Jett Hott on my big block headers and it is an awesome product. Those guys do a great job.Lincoln Power Mig 210MP MIGLincoln Power Mig 350MP - MIG and Push-PullLincoln TIG 300-300Lincoln Hobby-Weld 110v  Thanks JLAMESCK TIG TORCH, gas diffuser, pyrex cupThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 101My brain
Reply:Originally Posted by zerepenerFirst off, I am always impressed with your work.  More importantly to the owner, the single wall construction is probably a really bad idea.  I like the JetHot idea and think that will buy some time.  The owner should really reconsider the single wall construction because of how incredibly hot the metal will get in an enclosed engine compartment.  There are alot of hoses with important fluids running through the engine bay that will melt if they come in contact with the exhaust in a single wall application.  Even the exhaust wrap will not be enough to keep surface temps under control.  Boats run at moderate to high power levels any time that they are on plane which means extended high temp operation.  Whatever they choose, it's not going to become your problem or fault, but they really should have you make the same thing in double wall, preferably 316l.  They are really risking burning or sinking their boat.  Just my $.02.  Keep showing us pictures of you projects.  I always am interested in checking them out.Rene
Reply:Without trying to make this thread any more political and posturing than it already is, I will say that there are thousands of commercial vessels operating year round on our coast up here with all dry exhaust systems, in fact once you leave the sporty boat arena dry exhausts become the norm. Many applications have a water cooled turbo - then move to dry exhaust, but not all. There are even thousands of dry turbo applications, and they can all be safe if proper care and attention is given to the planning and the installation.I have built dry exhaust systems out of mild steel and sched 40 pipe, right from the turbo outlet back and out the stack. They will not last forever, but they last for decades - which is long enough for many applications. Consider the last boat I was working on; (I had to rebuild the genset inside the engine room). The boat was built in 1974, has packed fish all over the BC coast for 34 years and has over 50,000 hours on the original main engine, CAT 334. The engine has never had the valve cover off, and the exhaust is all original. There is a water jacketed turbo, (not wrapped up) a dry cast steel elbow coming out of the turbo (wrapped in glass lagging) a short piece of 6" steel pipe (wrapped in glass lagging), a 2 foot section of ss flex pipe, (wrapped in glass lagging, and then wrapped in glass exhaust wrapping tape), then the dry muffler (covered with a custom exhaust blanket) and then mild steel pipe going up inside the aluminum stack. There is good ventilation in the engine room, and the surfaces close to the exhaust system are covered by fireboard. (used to be adbestos based - not sure what is is made of now)I guess all I am saying is that it works very well when done properly, and a blanket condemnation is not appropriate in this case. Actually I am a bit surprised at the attitude I have been sensing from down across the line lately. As a Canadian I was brought up to respect the USA as a nation of "can do" guys, who would find a way to "get'er done" in some really amazing circumstances. Be careful that you don't de-masculate an entire generation in your efforts to avoid the rampant litigation, and runaway political correctness we now have to deal with on both sides of our border.Have fun with the project Zap, have the owner take a look at some of the commercial boats in your area if he wants to do it right. -Ryan
Reply:Originally Posted by Joker11BlackWolf, you are also incorrect.  That's the end of it. No need to reply.