stick welder's !!!!!!!! cast welding info needed

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hi name is scott joris and i live in the land of ice and snow this is my first post on this site ( new member )   . I have a bit of a problem . I scored a old bridgeport "m" head  a while ago , and have been restoring it . You can see it off to the side  ( yes its blue ) . The jib crane really dawrfs it , but its a little smaller than ur average mill . [IMG][/IMG]  If any one is familiar with the older bridgeports , they will know that the Cross feed lock is a POS Almost all of them have been over tourqued . and yes they crack , renduring them junk   well I got an old AC stick welder . It works great , and i have never welded cast before ( with TIG yes ) with stick I am a certified " c.w.b." stick welder and am in no way knew to the sport . But cast ? i just never had to many chances to weld it . so what i need is 1. a good rod ( AC ) for welding cast .......this weld needs to be very stong and i don't know what type of rod i'm looking for 2. a preheat time ?3. finally , what kinda techniqe ( lay it right in there  , or glue it a little - run away , glue it a little and run away ) thanks
Reply:Well My knowledge of cast is little to nothing but this is an excellent read. http://www.locknstitch.com/CastIronWelding.htm
Reply:http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...ronpreheat.aspAbove is good start on the basics.  Post a picture of the part with the crack(s) visible if you can.  You will probably get more info out of folks here if they can see what you are talking about.  Also, I would try to scrounge up some more cast iron similar in size to the part to practice on.  You can get nickel rods pretty much at any welding supply company, but a bit of practice on some scrap would always be a good idea before attacking a job on a part you might not be able to find a replacement for.  (I think railroad spikes are cast, anyway...)  The lincoln site doesnt specify if ac or dc is appropriate (for the rods), I have used ac+nickel rods to repair cast, but it was only lawn furniture, and the owner was not too concerned about the possibility of failure.  It worked fine, but.....a cast iron table is not a bridgeport (If it was I might be able to talk my wife into one).  If the option is available, you might want dc reverse polarity, because too much heat is mentioned repeatedly as a real problem.  I would also think that welding in intervals would be a good approach, allowing the base metal to cool to the preheat temps before restarting.  Hopefully someone else has some insights on this, cause I feel like I am not providing exactly what you are looking for.Last edited by smithboy; 08-11-2005 at 10:19 AM.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:hey Scott, Welcome.  One important thing when youre doing cast is to peen it.If I was me, I'd bevel it good, pre-heat,and the welds should be as you said. Maybe 3/4 long at the most,and then with an air chisel beat it good right on the bead. this will relieve the stress.Dont let it cool to fast.Maybe even post heat if feasible. Lotta good weldors on this site so somebody else will probably know more. Good luck! Keep us posted.
Reply:You can do everthing right when welding castiron and it will still crack sometimes.vee it out ,clean it up ,preheat it,short welds,peenit with chipping hammer.Nickel rods will work,but i really like eutectic 680 rods,they are very pricy but work very good.you should go to your local welding supply dealer and talk to them,they may be able to sell some of the specilty rods in 1 lb lots.eutectic 2240 is a cast iron rod,680 is an alloy rod,but very crack resistent[i use it on cast iron with good results].Or just plan old nickel rods will work but they aint cheap either.If you have some way to keep it from cooling to fast is a big help also.DONT vee it out to much ,so that you have this large gap to fill.Just did it on a pump casing last month.got it fixed but made myself a lot of extra work .Cast iron can be a bear to weld,but if you are a good stick welder you wont have any trouble.
Reply:another site that is not commercial biased is TWI out of Britain  http://www.twi.co.uk/professional/index.xtp#informationLook down to "job knowledge for welders"  there is a good discussion about welding cast.As stated before a picture of the complexity of the casting will invite more input.I have personally witnessed cold stitching and it is a slow involved process.  My boss closed up a two inch crack and it took him all day drilling and peening in the inserts.  He did not alloy ni-rod repair.  It was cold stitch or brazing.In many cases you can weld with nickel rod in short tacks about an inch at a time.  You must peen the cooling tack and then not touch the casting until it has cooled down and you can rest you bare hand on the tack and feel no discomfort.When I have done this on castings for a customer the job might take two electrodes but it will take most of the day for me to lay those in.   I would put in a tack and peen then go on to another job in the shop returning after fifteen minutes of more.Last edited by lotechman; 08-12-2005 at 12:02 AM.Reason: wrong keystroke
Reply:Scott:As others have stated cast iron can be very tricky to weld.The only preheat that I use is to clean the metal -  to burn an oil contamination out of the weld area.  I do believe that your bridgeport mill has some good cast in it which will make the welding a little easier.  I personally like  -Certanium 889sp-  for cast welding, I use a DC rod but I am pertty sure that they make the same in a AC - DC rod. although this  rod is VERY expensive - last time I bought it I am thinking it was in the neighbor hood of 65 or 70 dollars a pound   probably more now, that was two or three years ago. Lincoln also makes a pertty good cast rod - I think the number for it is  either 99NI  or 55NI it welds real good but dont lay down quite like the certanium.If you go to the welding supply to check out the cast rod  get the ones  which ever brand  that have the higher nickle content  they will do a better job, of course they will be higher cost also.  and do not let the sales person try to sell you some miricial rod that they claim will weld any dissimular metals. (ie. lincoln blue max)It will  NOT  weld cast  structrualy. If when you do attempt this job be patient with it - if on the first pass you get porosity grind it back out. that would indiciate that there is still oil contamination that is burning out. Someone above stated not to V out too much -- I think that is wrong  in any cast  it is my contention that it should be ground out as close to 100% as possible in order to get 100% weld because the remining crack under the weld will either crack thourgh the weld in time or along side of the weld fillment.Good luck:J.W.
Reply:You do need to vee it out 100%,but dont vee it so much that you have this large gap to fill,i did this using a 1/4 inch thick grinding wheel,wasnt watching close enough and i had a large gap to fill in.use a thinner wheel when you get close to the bottom of the crack.
Reply:Hi Scott and Welcome...   Don't forget about good ole 7018, Two weeks ago I was working on a cast pump for a Well Drilling Rig, The pump had a crack about eight inches deep from the landing were the head bolts on to the bottom of the cylinder.  Keep in mind this is a $12,000.00 pump.....   I had this pump beveled and Nuclear clean, I started out trying some 3055 in the joint with a preheat of just enough to bring out any moister and this stuff was popin' out like it was plastic, so I cleaned it up again, and tried some 22*33N same thing, I was almost stumped, I have miged up some casting with good success, so I figured what the heck...   I proseded with some 3/32 7018  it went right in there like it was carbon, I took my time welding on this to keep it from getting to hot, and crackin' I cleaned it up and pushed the sleves back in.................... and Bamm......         Back to Digging Wells. To make a long story short, without knowing the carbon and nickle content, Don't forget the good ole 7018......
Reply:Robin Hood, maybe you had cast steel?
Reply:TEK beat me to the punch 7018 is a real good rod to weld cast steel, but not cast iron. You would have to do a spark test to see what exactly you have  but I am willing to bet  most all I have that the bridge port is cast Iron. MIG has its place and it is NOT on cast of any KIND wether it be cast iron or cast steel , do either with a stick and you will have a whole lot less greif  ; a lot of people say it -MIG- will weld cast steel and cast iron = I call them lazy and unknolagable to say the least = to each his own but I will profess that you will have a lot better luck with stick on any castings, no matter what gas and or wire that you use. ! ! ! ! ! ! !! ! !! !! ! !! ! ! it may take a bit longer to do the job with stick but the repair will last if done properly. Perhaps I am old school but having been in the repair business for 25 plus years  experiance is speaking here ! ! !.J.W.
Reply:TEK, J.W. hey you guys could be right...   I didn't take a bite out of the thing    Just saying what I threw at it... I been at this Twenty Five years myself..and have done a lot of cast what ever, and have still only found it to be a 50/50 Odds it will stay.
Reply:im no expert by any means, but make sure you gind a little T at the end of each crack to prevent the crack from spreading. Then weld it up of course
Reply:The only way I have ever been able to succsessfully stop a crack from running is to find the very end of it, and then drill a small hole right thru the end of it.  If you grind a "T" you will have to grind all the way thru the material or the crack under the weld will in time spread thru the weld, and continue running. ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I use dye check to find the end of the crack ,then drill a small hole at the very end.
Reply:Crontron and Certanium products. The Certanium 889sp is nice and runs around $58.00 per pound, but if I had my choice I'd use Cronatron 211.  It requires no preheating and can be run pass over pass without chipping the slag, you can also weld mild steel to cast with it.  It has a tensile strength of 84,000 psi and is fully machinable at around $46.00 per pound.I managed a Boiler shop for 13 years prior to getting into sales and I had very little knowledge of Cast welding, but my customers have told me that the 211 rod was the best they have ever used and I have grown to believe that it is the best product we have.
Reply:It requires no preheating ..........
Reply:no preheating prior to being welded !
Reply:There are times when pre/post heat are just NOT possible, yes. In those time we do what we have to, yes. Some casts are more forgiving than others in that area, yes. But pre/post heat control is still the best and most preferred method and most touted and taught method by those who took part in founding the world of welding as we know it today. Heat input rates and cooling rates are always important if not critical in the welding repair of many iron castings. There is no reason to abandon the preferred procedure based on filler type. Welding procedures for cast are designed around preventing or minimizing the transformation of the parent metal into an undesirable structure due to heat input and heating and cooling rates. Type of filler is yet another issue. No rod, not even a wonder rod, can reach beyond the immediate area of the add mixture (puddle) and magically undue the effects of heat in metal that it has not come in contact with. Just think how much better your rod would work if applied as per the recommendations of the manufacturer of the castings. Just think how much easier it would be to sell if your recommendations were to follow all accepted practices and processes.
Reply:I agree with Sandy and most others here but I use to watch the old timers weld Cast Iron and they always heated and usually they wrapped after peening to slow the cooling rate down and I personally never saw one of their welds or base metal crack after that.Nobody moves nobody gets hurt(safety first)millematic passportmiller 375 plasmacutter
Reply:Anyone ever heard of metal stitching?  www.locknstitch.com  They have a section on the webpage that shows real world repairs and the results are impressive.
Reply:That is why we have designed this rod to eliminate the need to preheat. you also can weld thru paint and grease due to the properties of the flux.I'm not saying the old guys are wrong, I'm just saying there is some new technology in the specialty welding field that will make everyone's life easier and quicker.  Our products are design to get machines and such back to working and not shut plants down, they can't afford to wrap stuff and let it cool down before firing the machines back up.  I have one papermill that has a big digital screen in the lobby showing how much it cost for one of their paper lines cost if it isn't running, the last time I was there one had been down for 3 hours at $1363 a minute due to a electrical problem.  Here's a link to the Cronacast 211 page.http://webapp1.cronatronwelding.com/...temNum=CW01034Our guarantee.Quality: Exclusive electrode coatings are guaranteed against deterioration or other damage. A 100% merchandise credit will be issued should this occur.Performance:Application results are guaranteed with the use of Cronatron products when used in the prescribed manner and applied to the described metals as designated in our literature.Satisfaction:Unconditional customer satisfaction is guaranteed with prompt, courteous personalized attention.Security:100 million dollar product and general liability insurance is in effect for all Cronatron products for all Cronatron customers.  I don't think many gashouse's will offer this type of guarantee on their products.
Reply:We used to use Cronatron tig rod at a place I worked at. Excellent rod, but it was too thick for the small welding jobs we did (resurrecting parting lines on molds). But for the other welding jobs we had, this stuff held up really great. I can't imagine that stick rods would be any different. Just an observation and sharing my experience with the products.
Reply:Howdy Howdy!  Pics would be nice   If the part is small, you can setup a little oven for preheat, and postheat.  Also, I too recomend using the drilling method at the end of the crack.  A circle has the lowest stress risers of any shape.  I PREFER to braze, if at all possible, but if not I don't hesitate in welding the item.  I too use a "stitch" technique I believe it is called.  With the 1 lb "jobber" bags of nickel rods.  I think it's like 10-15$/lb.  Just fine for a couple small farm jobs.  I would not use 7018 for cast IRON, unless it was all I had in the woods, and I had to get home before the polar bears ate me. ( referring to 4X4ing and on board welder...)  There are 2 main kinds of nickel rods. One machineable, one not machineable.  I prefer the machineable kind, though not as tough, it is certainly as tough as the parent material.  The best advice, is raise the temp very very slowly, and cool down even slower.  Slower then Molasses in an alaskan snow storm slow.  We take a bucket of hot sand with a lil bit of oil and some peat moss all mixed together.  Sometimes fireplace ashes work well, or the chemical lime? I think it is?  Maybee some other white powder... powdered sugar maybee? I don't know it's late, and I can't sleep.  As to the peening, I prefer to use an air powered needle scaler.  More blows, and alot less force per blow.  better for an all around stress relieving process.  Besides that, good luck!  Brian Lee  Sparkeee27
Reply:You should check the link, metal stitching without welding.  On the top right they have a section called repair examples, look in there.for cast iron welding you want to grind a groove in it(the part)so you can use it as a reference.not to deep,just enough so you can see the weld area,and the crack in the metal.pre heat cast iron to warm to the touch,using 3/32 cast rod,stitch the area every 2 inches ACROSS the repair area.Once down,let it cool,to warm to the touch,and run a regular bead,using a tight circular weave.Pack sand around the part to keep the area warm untill it cools off.usally 2hrs,depends on the thickness and size of what you are welding.I hope this helps anyone who has to weld cast iron.I usually weld cast iron parts every two weeks due to machines breaking,and I found this is a good methodLast edited by welderfabricationmec; 02-05-2006 at 11:30 AM.
Reply:When the folks are saying to Vee it out, Im hoping they mean simply to clean up the crack and the crack area before welding? the more cast u take away, the more u will have to fill and the greater your HAZ stresses will be. depending on the grade of cast, I have repaired parts with 7018 rod and a lot of peening without preheat, but preheating makes life much simpler
Reply:I think I speak for the group.  But a lot of us would kill for that jib crane. Lincoln 300 Vantage 2008300 Commander 1999SA250 1999SA200 1968Miller Syncrowave 200XMT350MPA/S-52E/xr-15Xtreme 12vs Millermatic 251 w/30A  Millermatic 251 Dialarc 250 Hypertherm 1250 GEKA & Bantom Ironwokers
Reply:i've used cronatron stuffim not impressed..cost vs. "practicality"the jury is still out on that one just my opinion  ...zap!
Reply:Do you have a torch?  A phosphor-bronze braze might do the trick.  It is stronger than the cast iron itself and is machineable unlike some of the nickel cast iron rods.