Root Pass and Grinding Questions....

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...on open v-groove 3/8" mild steel.  I'm a new student in welding school having problems with making a decent root pass(6010 rod at 65-75 amps with 1/8" gap) that doesn't need to be grinded to hell and also has good penetration all the way through.  I see some guys who's backside of the plate just looks beautiful.  Do you actually jam the rod into the gap and make it keyhole?How many rods should I burn on the root pass?  I've been trying to use 3 throughout the seven inch plate evenly.  It seems to give me a thick enough root so, after I'm done grinding, I don't burn through with the hot pass.  But that's only if i get a smooth weld all the way across.  Getting an even weld throughout is proving to be difficult with my rod sticking often.  Also, when connecting welds on the root pass i always screw it up.  The keyhole begins to close and I never seem to be able to deposit enough filler metal before the hole closes and i lose my arc.  I then have to grind that area down to nothing and it will continue to be a problem area.   It turns into a vicious cycle of grinding, welding, grinding, welding and my weld  never seems to get anywhere.  I've had some of these problems with the flat position, but it's multiplied with horizontal.  There is no doubt in my mind that it's all due to being a brand new welder and I'll eventually get it, but I'd appreciate any tips that could speed me up.
Reply:fotos.....
Reply:Judging by the numbers, and the fact that you are sticking and closing the keyhole and losing your arc, I'ld say you are too cold. Bump it up into the 80's and try again.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:If your keyhole is closing up you either need to tighten up your manipulation to concentrate the heat beter, or turn your amps up.  It sounds like your too cold, I usually run 75-85 amps with 5p+ on the root depending on the fit and the machine.You do need to keep the rod right in the opening, you shouldnt even be able to see much of the arc.  A good keyhole is a must for 6010 roots, learn how to control the size and you'll be golden.I use  around 2 rods on my roots, but that doesn't really mean anything.  All that matters is that you have enough material in there to lay the hot pass in.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Open groove or with backing plate?1981 Lincoln SA 200Miller Trailblazer 302gMiller 211 Mig Welder w/ AutosetI'm learning to stick metal together
Reply:Originally Posted by jsm11Open groove or with backing plate?
Reply:I can't give you any advice with authority since I'm just a student. I've been stuck on overhead and finally got the hang of it at the end of an 8 hour marathon session. I found that I have to really jam it up in the crack. It has been a two-hand procedure wiggling it back and forth. The tip of my electrode reminds me of a mesa.Also it seems like you need to be able to hear it roaring out the back. I'm hard of hearing and this is slightly problematic. Fortunately I am able to see the light and smoke coming out from behind which is useful while learning.
Reply:Your heat is in range, but you should have 3/32 land and 3/32 gap. You should be able to get that with 2 sticks of 1/8 6010 rod. Maintain your gap by placing a wedge about 3/4 of the way across the plate. I would stay between 65 and 70 amps. At the gap and heat you describe, and that you use at least 3 rods to get across the plate, I would guess that you are also having a hard time controlling the keyhole.UA Local 598
Reply:Originally Posted by WHughesYour heat is in range, but you should have 3/32 land and 3/32 gap. You should be able to get that with 2 sticks of 1/8 6010 rod. Maintain your gap by placing a wedge about 3/4 of the way across the plate. I would stay between 65 and 70 amps. At the gap and heat you describe, and that you use at least 3 rods to get across the plate, I would guess that you are also having a hard time controlling the keyhole.
Reply:Each person will have their own technique.What works for me on 1/8 land and gap with 1/8 6010 is about 80 amps. Strike the arc and hold for a second or so to heat it up. When you get to the tack edge push it in to get the weld to the back of the tack then start manipulating your key hole. When you get to your top tack push it in again  and point the electrode towards the tack to get to the back of the root.Practice makes perfect.Leo
Reply:I suggest you put that grinder away, you won't have that luxury when testing on plate.I too believe you're in the proper range for amps with 1/8 rod. I like a heavy 1/16 to 5/64 inch land, and same for gap. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88Did you read the post?
Reply:jsm, it's open.  My landing is 1/8" with a 1/8" gap.  My it's hard to describe and produce pics during the weekend but my keyhole doesn't exactly close up on its own. It's when I'm going to close it is where i get problems.  I'll be using a "c" motion with everything going great and i get to my previous weld.  I keep consistent with my motions and as soon as it closes i normally get my rod stuck.  What I am aiming to do is keep the arc going and kinda circle around  for a couple seconds where I just connected the weld to have enough filler in there.  Is that right?  I don't believe the issue is with being too hot/cold.  I can control that well enough now.  I haven't tried this but maybe starting in the middle would be better?CEP, I would gladly put the damn grinder away .  My instructor seems pretty set on us grinding any little imperfection to **** before putting another bead down.  It seems like overkill and it's a huge time waster.  Is there another proper way?  Again, I'm gonna try and produce some pics.  I have basically been welding, grinding the sides of the weld down SMOOTH, then keep going as to not have porosity in my welds, but it seems that i wouldn't have to grind everything so smooth.  Isn't this **** like 10000 degrees?  Wouldn't it melt an approximate 1/8-3/16" into the previous weld if all conditions are ideal?a lot of good suggestions, thanks.
Reply:Originally Posted by Green Welderjsm, it's open.  My landing is 1/8" with a 1/8" gap.  My it's hard to describe and produce pics during the weekend but my keyhole doesn't exactly close up on its own. It's when I'm going to close it is where i get problems.  I'll be using a "c" motion with everything going great and i get to my previous weld.  I keep consistent with my motions and as soon as it closes i normally get my rod stuck.  What I am aiming to do is keep the arc going and kinda circle around  for a couple seconds where I just connected the weld to have enough filler in there.  Is that right?  I don't believe the issue is with being too hot/cold.  I can control that well enough now.  I haven't tried this but maybe starting in the middle would be better?CEP, I would gladly put the damn grinder away .  My instructor seems pretty set on us grinding any little imperfection to **** before putting another bead down.  It seems like overkill and it's a huge time waster.  Is there another proper way?  Again, I'm gonna try and produce some pics.  I have basically been welding, grinding the sides of the weld down SMOOTH, then keep going as to not have porosity in my welds, but it seems that i wouldn't have to grind everything so smooth.  Isn't this **** like 10000 degrees?  Wouldn't it melt an approximate 1/8-3/16" into the previous weld if all conditions are ideal?a lot of good suggestions, thanks.
Reply:Originally Posted by Green Welder...on open v-groove 3/8" mild steel.
Reply:isnt ur teacher any help? thats the point of schoool-NateMiller Trailblazer 302gMiller Spoolmatic 30aLN-25 x 2Idealarc SP200Hypertherm Powermax 600
Reply:Just remember every weld echoes to the next. You want to be able to place each weld without wagon tracks, or imperfections so you can clean it up with the next pass. I can't ever remember taking a plate test where I was allowed the use of a grinder. Pipe tests, yes. Here is a root pass on the outside. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbead65 amps i thought we were talking 3/32 6010. are you saying use 65-70 amps on 1/8 6010? even with the 3/32 land it sounds low.....
Reply:thank you sir
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPJust remember every weld echoes to the next. You want to be able to place each weld without wagon tracks, or imperfections so you can clean it up with the next pass. I can't ever remember taking a plate test where I was allowed the use of a grinder. Pipe tests, yes. Here is a root pass on the outside.
Reply:I'm having a similar problem. Everyone in my class runs their machines at 65-70 amps. I know that's too low so I asked my teacher what to set it at and he said at 90. I'm able to run the root pass at 90 it's just I get this underfill at the top of the weld. He told me to either slow down, or my angle is wrong. He told me to hold the torch at the 10, 10 o clock position. I've been stuck on 2g for months and everyone else is ahead of me. I even sit through other classes just to get practice but still haven't gotten it yet. Any thoughts? Attached Images
Reply:Your teacher is an absolute retard if he thinks you should be running a root at 90 amps. Thats far too much heat. I teach my apprentices weather it be on practicing 3/8" plate or pipe of various alloys your fitup is your most MOST key variable. Every single joint i ever weld on high pressure pipe that allows me too i will take a file and file the the pipe true so their is absolutely no gaps or high/low spots inside the pipe. If you setup for a 3/32" gap/land you want 3/32 all the way around not 3/32 for 1 or 2" then  1/8" for 2" then back to 3/32" down to 1/16". You get to the point where you can work with those varying parameters just in rod manipulation and knowing how to dispurse heat by using your base metal. But when learning you want a flawless fitup. Setup your plates with a 3/32" land, and 3/32" gap. Once you have your plates beveled take them to a vise and file your land on, trust me becoming competent with a file isnt as easy as running it back and forth as fast as you can. As you file your land on put your plates "bevel down" on a flat table and check that your plates butt up pefectly against one another. there should be ZERO gaps, you shouldnt see anything between them. Use a 3/32" 7018 rod with the flux knocked and filed off smooth as your gap guage. Once tacked at each end i personally use around 78-80 amps for my 1/8" 6010 P+ now this will depend on machine/welder preference. As stated above it is wise to keep a consistant keyhole with 6010 to be sure your biting both edges of the material. Its not nessecary to jam your rod right through the plate as it risks snuffing the arc out and makes it harder to visually see and monitor you keyhole. Concentrate on short whips. You will hear the sound of the root being put in and when you whip, think to yourself " i need to hear the exact same sound everytime i whip" this will make your root consistant. To control your keyhole if it gets too small or is about to close up lengthen your arc length slightly to increase your heat input slightly (do this while still whipping), once you gain control of the keyhole again continue as usual. If it gets too large shorten your arc length and whip slightly further ahead to let the puddle solidify and cool slightly longer, once keyhole goes back to normal continue. Its hard to explain and not visually show someone but you can work on these steps. WIth the whipping if done properly you completely eliminate wagon tracks. Dont drag your root because your just setting yourself up for failure. especially if your not allowed to use a grinder.
Reply:when i took my welding class the teacher used to yell at everyone who picked up a wire wheel on a grinder or who had to use a wire brush excessively.at a certain point he only let use use our chip hammers. i couldnt take the test i was working overtime and am a carpenter so having a welding cert isnt on top of my list right now, but its getting there after stupid osha 40 (osha 10 isnt good enough anymore) but i remember him saying that if you need to brush off your slag for the test piece then your in troubleagain probably totally different then what your doinggood luck and do well!the grand ol' opry aint so grand anymoremiller maxstar 150sworking on an oxy/acet set up
Reply:Originally Posted by wearetheromans85I'm having a similar problem. Everyone in my class runs their machines at 65-70 amps. I know that's too low so I asked my teacher what to set it at and he said at 90. I'm able to run the root pass at 90 it's just I get this underfill at the top of the weld. He told me to either slow down, or my angle is wrong. He told me to hold the torch at the 10, 10 o clock position. I've been stuck on 2g for months and everyone else is ahead of me. I even sit through other classes just to get practice but still haven't gotten it yet. Any thoughts?
Reply:think about your SMAW fundamentals. If your instructor, or someone experienced is telling you that the amperage is OK, that only leaves rod angle, travel speed and arc length, all things you can control. Ive been doing moment welds on the job for the last few weeks, fit up is extremely important. 11 for 11 UTs so far.Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24Word. I'll have to mess with rod angle and speed more. Other question is drag or step motion?
Reply:Originally Posted by MadMax31You whip yer root, huh? I was taught to drag my roots, while watching the keyhole. Only time I whip is when keyhole is too big, or fit-up sucks..
Reply:I whip the root because I feel I have more control over the puddle. Maybe it's just nervous energy, I don't know. I'm not a pipe welder, never had any schooling at all. I just know what works best for me, I do what ever the puddle requires, I change the arc length, angle of rod, even direction of the rod if the key hole really opens up. If the key hole opens up too much I'll point the rod back into the weld, and close the arc length. If the joint gap closes on me I'll point the rod towards the direction of travel, and lengthen the arc length in an attempt to cut the joint gap open.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:CEP,Thanks for the response.  Since posting my question I re-read the thread, did some research and kind of came to my own conclusion that whipping the root leaves a cleaner face that requires less cleanup.  I also realized what was meant by 'wagon-tracks'.  When I drag the root it leaves a very distinct and uniformed raised section on the face, with two nice steep mini grooves on either side that have an amount of slag that WILL NOT come out with a wire brush, hence the use of the grinder to clean up prior to the hot pass.Thanks again.Jay DavisAWS-CWIC-60 Specialty Welding ContractorLoving husband, and father of two boys (
Reply:Those wagon tracks can be dangerous if you don't grind them out, or burn them out with your hot pass.Here is the outside of a whipped root pass, not too bad to correct with a grinder or hot pass. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Well I took pipe in school to get my 6G cert.  4 inch pipe with %70 bevel and 3/32 root with 6011 root and 1/8 fill to reinforcement.  Root was done with a whip and pause of the 6011 rod which allows the material to cool just enough during the whip away so that it doesn't keyhole out all over the place and amps were ran at 85.  Starts and stops were ground to make a smooth launch pad for the next rod to work with and any other grinding was kept to a minimum unless there was undercut with trapped slag or a booger.The past 4 plate tests I've done were with 5/8 plate with 1/8 backing plate all mild still except for the stainless test plate.  With the mild steel all beads were ran and each was ground at the toes and profiled to provide at good bed for the next bead to be laid and the same was done for the stainless.
Reply:Oh and remember this, slow and steady wins the race, quick and nervous destroys the pace.
Reply:I thought 3/16 was the minimum backing plate allowed?I hear you on the slow and steady.  Other students ask my how my vert up 7018 is so smooth and even, and I tell them to go so slow that it makes them uncomfortable.  If it all falls out, go a hair faster!Jay DavisAWS-CWIC-60 Specialty Welding ContractorLoving husband, and father of two boys (
Reply:Tell them to do a 1 2  count and to set it to a pace of one second for each number.  My previous instructor would tap his foot while doing it while I would chew gum in rhythm till I got it down without needing to do anything like that.
Reply:first one is half at 75 amps and half at 86 amps. the other is 2g at 90 amps. i like dragging the rod but bead comes out a little smaller than doing a whip motion. this guy was telling me to have a maximum of 75 amps but no more. told me that 65-70 would be better. isn't that too cold? Attached Images
Reply:1st pic 3g. 2nd is 2g
Reply:Looks like you should try 80amps with the 2g and throw a slight circle or weave into the 3g to take the ridge down and be sure you have good penetration into the bevel.  Another thing to remember is that all machines are not the same when it comes to what the dial says so even though it may say 75 amps it could be putting out 68 amps or 81 amps.  Not all rods burn the same either due to size and flux and type such as stainless which runs like water and requires greater control and a tighter arc than mild steel rods and 60xx rods run nothing like either and at least in my experience 6010 holds the slag less than 6011 rods which also make an uglier bead.