Fold-Away Welding Table

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In my garage, I've got a work surface that folds up out of the way when I'm not using it.  I use it for my table router and miter saw, mostly.  It's not designed with jumping-on-top-of strength in mind, but I've jumped on top of it to test it and it held up fine.The car isn't there when I'm using the table, but I made it somewhat idiot proof by working it so that the car could still pull in there even if the table was down.There's some empty wall space next to the carpentry table, so I'd like to add a welding table that would also fold up when it's not in use.  Since I might conceivably hammer on this one, I'll design a more-robust undercarriage -- the legs won't come down at an angle, for example.But I'm new to welding, and I've got some questions.  Aside from general sturdiness and an unpainted steel surface, is there anything else I need to build into this design?Today I took an unplanned step with this project and bought a 3'x6' steel table that I think I can adapt to this job.  The top is only 1/8" thick, which I hope won't be a problem.  Thicker would have been better, but having to lift the thing up to fold it away is another issue.  As it is, the steel plate piece in this table weighs 92 pounds and the undercarriage pieces add another 113 pounds. (Going to a 1/4" top would have meant adding another 92 pounds to the existing 205.)I paid $60 for the table from a place down the street from where I live.  I hope that wasn't a rip-off.  Here's the top of the table sitting down in the space where it will go.  The cat is there to show scale.The underside is painted, but I'll strip it along the edge and also on the top. You can see it's supported with 2"x2"x.25" angle stock.  There are five welded-in threaded lugs on each side for the undercarriage, but I'll redesign that part. You can see that the angle stock was welded to the plate every eight inches or so.  I'm leery about going in and welding the full seam because of potential warping.  But I don't think there will be a strength problem with the existing welds.Like I say, I think I can design a workable undercarriage that would unfold when the table swings down.  But I've also got to make the thing sturdier.  It's not that you couldn't jump up and down and hammer on it all day now.  But my thinking is that I could add a 1-5/8" layer of wood underneath the plate piece and then weld cross-supports with more of the 2" angle iron to support the wood.  Is there a downside to having wood underneath the steel?  Would it be better to simply cut some more 2"x2"x.25" angle and add more cross supports, with no wood behind the plate?  My thinking is that the wood will make the thing a little less gong-like when I'm pounding on it.Anything else you guys think I should consider?  As I said, this is my first project.  After that, I'm making a fence with panels that will be 34" x 60", which will fit on top of this table.  But I've got to finish the table before I can start the fence.Last edited by Jack Olsen; 04-08-2009 at 12:10 AM.
Reply:I just had a couple of thoughts on the matter...First, the whole cat thing being there for scale...I don't buy that, no cat does anything for anybody, the cat is there because the cat WANTS to be there.Second, the wood layer under a table top meant for welding is bound to get scorched, btdt (been there...). Looks great though! City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Given the pristine state of that garage, I don't imagine you're going to be doing alot of big, heavy, dirty stuff.That's a great table top.No need to weld the seam.I reckon a sheet of ply or something underneath would be fine. Maybe something that won't burn like the compressed sheeting we use over here for bathroom floors?Scott
Reply:Originally Posted by scott brunsdonGiven the pristine state of that garage, I don't imagine you're going to be doing alot of big, heavy, dirty stuff.That's a great table top.No need to weld the seam.I reckon a sheet of ply or something underneath would be fine. Maybe something that won't burn like the compressed sheeting we use over here for bathroom floors?Scott
Reply:Thanks.I do plan on a backsplash made of metal, and there will also be welding blankets and curtains on hand.It does get dirty.Bu then I clean it up when the project is done.
Reply:But then I clean it up when the project is done.
Reply:Yeah, I get to about 90% with most things and move onto the next project. So because I never completely finish anything, I never clean up. But what I have taken to doing is going out to my shed each night at 7pm. I get a beer out of the beer fridge, put the news on the TV, and make myself clean up and toss some stuff out for half an hour. Three nights in a row now and it's looking good.
Reply:I wouldn't spend any time trying to beef it up with a wood underlay.Buy a Cheap 55lb HF anvil for banging on.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I'm thinking of adding a trailer hitch receiver for a vice and a ginder -- and maybe an anvil.  Can you bolt those things down?
Reply:I've bolted a grinder and a vice to a tabletop before, but a trailer hitch receiver would be a better idea - quicker to swap and get them out of the way when you don't need them.
Reply:My plan is to put receivers on both the main bench and also into the wall adjacent to the welding table.  I think if I use the double-style receiver, mounted sideways, it'd even be stable enough to hold my drill press.  I'll just need to weld some 2" square stock to some plate for each tool.
Reply:Hey, are those Duncan Pfife phife fife wtf ever legs on that green table????Best doggone illusion for a table leg ever devised.  The taper gives an illusion of taper even though it's only tapered on the inside edge.  COOL STUFF"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:WW tradition Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:DO NOT WELD IN THE SAME AREA YOU DO WOODWORKING.Doesn't take much of a spark, laying in collected sawdust, to burn your house down.  Also, those cardboard storage boxes in a welding area are a NO NO.  My honest opinion?  I'd never even strike an arc in your garage.BTW,  The military has been using that concept you have for your bench supports on "troop seats" for many years.
Reply:Depending on how you design the table fold away mechanism, using gas lift struts from a vehicle hatch could greatly reduce the effort to fold the table away (or lift the table up to use...)Just a thought.
Reply:I'm with paweldor.Woodworking in the garage is one thing from a safety and clean-up and workspace impact standpoint.Welding is a whole other thing.Wood makes sawdust, which you can just sweep and vacuum up.Welding makes molten metal, which can burn things and set them on fire.  Things like the sawdust in the garage, the wooden workbench, the wooden baseboard molding, the vinyl(?) floor tiles in your garage, the cardboard boxes, the paint on the wallboard/drywall, the paper surface of the wallboard/drywall, etc, etc.And to do welding means you have to do grinding.  Grinding makes sparks as well.No wood on a welding table.  It's not needed, and at best it can scorch and at worst catch on fire.A 1/8 inch thick steel table top is not for pounding on, you need a thicker table top or an anvil (as mentioned) for that.  An 1/8 inch thick table top is OK for light-duty welding tasks, but thicker is better.  Now for all I know and since you didn't specify, maybe you are just planning on TIG welding small metal decorations or jewelry or such.  In which case an 1/8 inch thick table top is plenty thick.  If you want to weld bigger or heavier stuff or stuff that has to be clamped square or tacked square to the table, then 1/8 inch is kind of thin.The skip-welding of the table frame to the table top is fine for the intended purpose of the table as a layout-assembly table.  If the table were to be beefier, I'd say it would need additional cross-ribs underneath.  With a thin table top, you need more structure underneath to beef things up.  With a thick table top, you need more structure underneath to hold things up.  Weld out in the driveway.  Set up the table with some casters or such so that you can move it out into the driveway, set up the welding curtains around the table area to block wind and breezes and protect curious onlookers from the arc and such, etc, etc.IMHO.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Pawelder and MoonRise, I appreciate the cautions.  This is for use with a 110V HH140 Mig.  I won't be welding anything very thick.  I'm building a short wrought-iron-style fence out of 16 ga square tubing as a first project.  I'd never have sawdust around for welding.  I will have a backsplash, suspended curtains and welding blankets.  The floor is industrial ceramic tile.  Working out in the driveway is hard to get away with in a residential stretch of Los Angeles -- especially if I'm running a grinder and a chop saw.  And on a piece of property as small as mine, I'd have to be completely enclosed in curtains outside, both for people looking at the arc and fire issues.  It seems to involve most of the same issues if I enclose myself in the same way in the garage (only without the wind messing up my shielding gas) -- but again, I do appreciate the caution.  I'm going to look into the way the troop seats are designed.  chicksdigwagons, I've thought about a cable and a counterweight for lowering and raising the table, sort of like some older houses do for large windows.  The weight could move up and down inside the wall, between the studs.I'm dropping the wood idea.  If the table seems too flimsy, I'll either reinforce it with some 2" angle pieces or I'll add another layer of 1/8" plate on top of the existing one.The garage will always be clean when I'm doing welding in it.  You can see from this picture that I'll be able to take the car out and curtain off half of the space and have very little that's flammable nearby.  I know it's not perfect, but I don't have many options on my property.  (And for what it's worth, the garage is not connected to the house.)Last edited by Jack Olsen; 04-08-2009 at 01:30 PM.
Reply:Check out the wall mount.http://www.vansantent.com/Grinding_S...h_grinders.htmEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:I would 86 the Fold up Table and make one that fits next to your Tool Box.Pull the Car out, roll the welding table over there- this way you can walk around the table.You go to the Halloween Haunt?Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:If you are in a residential area and welding in your garage, how are you going to get ventilation and smoke removal?You don't plan on having sawdust around, but it will be there somewhere.  In the gap between the baseboard molding and the floor where a spark or skittling red-hot piece of slag or spatter bounces and then lodges, where it smolders and then catches fire in the wall later.  Etc.Hey, I didn't -plan- on setting the lawn on fire with the sparks from the abrasive shop saw either!    But it still happened.  A small splash of water and it was all taken care of.Sawdust floats in the air and falls to the ground (and coats everything in the 'shop' with dust  ).Grinder dust and metal dust can travel a pretty good distance too.  Except the metal could be more like a spark and not just a benign piece of room temperature metal.Molten metal spatters or slag can hit the ground and dance or 'skittle' a pretty good distance as well.  While still being red hot or hot enough to cause a smolder.I'd say you would have to put an attached metal backsplash onto the metal table top, and also attached (or at least firmly clamped so that no sparks can get underneath or between them) wing shields for the sides of the table as well to prevent sparks or hot pieces from getting off three sides of the table.  But that still leaves the fourth side where you are working from open.Hey, that steel table is nice and all, but it is not beefy enough in either the structure or the top thickness for pounding on.  I have a small steel table top only about 1/4 the size of your table or less, and I used 1/8 inch thick steel AND have a perimeter frame AND two cross ribs with a connecting lengthwise rib between them.  And that tabletop is NOT for pounding on, just to firmly hold a small lathe.The troop seats have the support legs pretty much just the way you have them for your woodworking fold-up table.  BTW, nice job on the table.    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Looking at the state of that garage, I get the feeling that Jack is probably fairly careful with everything he does.I have an undercover outside area where I do all my steel stuff, but that's because my shed is a mess. I'd say Jack would go into convulsions if he saw the state of my shed and run away screaming.
Reply:Originally Posted by scott brunsdonLooking at the state of that garage, I get the feeling that Jack is probably fairly careful with everything he does.
Reply:Thar garage shows some good self-discipline.  I like it.  I'll admit that I'm not psyched about the grinding wheel mess.  But one nice thing about the ceramic tile and painted walls is that it's pretty easy to go around with the compressed air hose and blow everything out of the nooks and crannies.  I'm thinking about buying another one of the tables and sandwiching the second 1/8 inch sheet on top of the first one (maybe skip welding around the edge?).  It'd bump me to a 1/4 inch of steel, although it would also add another 92 pounds to the table.But then, I'm also thinking of ways to put one or two automotive coil springs into the wall to control the drop rate of the whole unit.
Reply:You might as well go all out and mount a small winch to raise and lower the table,seen it on Monster House.Lincoln 225 ACLincoln Mig Pak 15Lincoln Mig Pak 10Purox Oxy-Acet Outfit20 Ton PressHonda Generator
Reply:Originally Posted by chicksdigwagonsDepending on how you design the table fold away mechanism, using gas lift struts from a vehicle hatch could greatly reduce the effort to fold the table away (or lift the table up to use...)Just a thought.I reckon dig a pit, Jack, and have a table that rises out of the floor at the press of a button - just get that little car out of the way before you hit the button.
Reply:Methinks that table should fold DOWN when not in use as opposed to up? I'd hate to think what might happen to that beautiful car should the latch mechanism fail!Ray DMiller 211TANSTAAFL  N 40º 11' 31.6" W 82º 55' 9.5"
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack OlsenThar garage shows some good self-discipline.  I like it.  I'll admit that I'm not psyched about the grinding wheel mess.  But one nice thing about the ceramic tile and painted walls is that it's pretty easy to go around with the compressed air hose and blow everything out of the nooks and crannies.  I'm thinking about buying another one of the tables and sandwiching the second 1/8 inch sheet on top of the first one (maybe skip welding around the edge?).  It'd bump me to a 1/4 inch of steel, although it would also add another 92 pounds to the table.But then, I'm also thinking of ways to put one or two automotive coil springs into the wall to control the drop rate of the whole unit.
Reply:These are all great(hilarious) ideas. Really, why attach it to the wall at all. If you must have it fold up, then just have removable legs. that way you can still move it to wherever you want. Casters on the side for moving it around. Dig a pit so you can put the legs on. A winch on the ceiling to pick it up after the legs are on. When you go to tip it over for storage, I'm picturing model rocket engines to act as brakes to slow the fall........Seriously Jack. Consider not attaching it to the wall. Either 1) remove or fold the legs. Maybe use a bracket on the wall to aid in setup and take down.2) leave on casters and move around (best option!) What if you stored it on the side and the legs slid under those shelves in the back? Or remove the legs and store it under the car. I dunno, it's late and I'm just thinking out loud. There's a way to solve this problem without creating a 300 lb Deadfall waiting to break you fingers or mangle your cat."We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. "   - Oscar WildeMaxstar STL150Eagle CPM30 Bender
Reply:I think I'll build a smaller steel table to roll around.  The more learning-to-weld projects for me to practice on, the better.  But I still want to do the big, wall-mounted one.  One of the nice things about it will be that it's at the same level as the woodworking table next to it, which will let me chop cut long stuff a lot easier.  I think I can engineer a way to have it raise and lower it safely.  And I think I can also fireproof it and have an air evacuation system, too.  Is there a negative side to having it be wall-mounted that I'm missing, though?I don't mean to be deliberately dense.
Reply:Is there a negative side to having it be wall-mounted that I'm missing, though?
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack OlsenIs there a negative side to having it be wall-mounted that I'm missing, though?
Reply:Relating it to woodworking, do you put the tablesaw up against a wall or do you put it in the middle of the work area with plenty of space around it so that you have infeed and outfeed and rip and crosscut capability?  The woodworking power miter saw (aka chop saw) can go along a wall because of the nature of the way the workpiece and the tool interact.  The long thin piece of wood just lays there and the saw head can pivot or bevel or both to make the cuts.The jointer or planer can similarly be near a wall as long as the infeed and outfeed space is clear, because again the workpiece size/shape is kind of long and thin (relatively) and the part movement is in one dimension.The tablesaw could be ripping long pieces or crosscutting a long piece or cutting large sheet goods, so it typically needs space all around it .Similary, a welding table typically needs space all around it because you may have to reposition yourself around the workpiece or the workpiece could be hanging off the table in certain directions, etc.And again, I STRONGLY caution against welding in that garage/woodworking shop area from a safety standpoint and from a mess standpoint.  Steel grinding dust gets all over the place.  Small 'delicate' GTAW (aka TIG) work?  Maybe.Big SMAW (aka stick) work?  Nope.GMAW (aka MIG) work?  Probably not.IMHO.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:MIG.  With curtains.  And ventilation.And I'm also going to make a smaller welding table.  But I can do whole panels of this fence on this table at the cost of zero floor space.(Even though it might leave me 'nought but grief an' pain.')
Reply:Once you make a fence panel, you will have a table for the rest of the panels.  So,  build one panel square and use it as a template and table top.   Can you get by with a skeleton table and put the top on when needed.  The skeleton would not have to be as large as your current top.  16g steel tubing or 1/8 angle would work for framing.  It would solve your table weight issues too.Railing/fencing really is easily built on tables without a closed top and on future projects you might find you can get by with limited need for a continuous solid surface.  Good luck
Reply:I hadn't thought of that.  You mean I could build a jig out of steel, basically (or a mix of wood and steel), and have it also function as a table?Where could I find a picture of a jig built for this kind of fence panel?
Reply:Jack,you need to build one like thishttp://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...d=1#post27521320' 2"x2" x .120 is 74.00 at M&K steel.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Jack,Nice garage and car!I would cut the top into 2 pieces and make a 3'x3'x 1/4" table with lattached egs and casters. That would give you a good size welding table for the garage, double your top thickness, and you could park it in line with your tool box (as pointed out above). The casters would let you move it to the center of the garage when you are welding to keep it away from the walls, sawdust, etc. and is easier to clean up. You would then build a couple of jack stand supports to hold the ends of the fence panels when welding them. Just an idea. My setup is similar - in a neighborhood, nice garage, need to be safe and easy to clean up each night. I have a 2' x 3' x 1/4" table and it works great for me.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:If I had a car like that, it would never be allowed in the garage again after the first welding or grinding.  The grinding dust and welding smoke will stay in the air for a long time,  think days/weeks, not min/hours.  The metalic dust will make a real mess of a nice paint job.Seriously though,  I would plan on permanently parking outside, or finding a buddy that will allow you to use his shop for your welding.  Around here, lot's of guys rent out storage units with power and use them for working on stock cars.  Yes, the storage owner knows what they are doing.
Reply:2 pieces of 1/8 not nearly as rigid as 1 piece of 1/4.  my $0.02 worth . . .fredI'm thinking about buying another one of the tables and sandwiching the second 1/8 inch sheet on top of the first one (maybe skip welding around the edge?). It'd bump me to a 1/4 inch of steel, although it would also add another 92 pounds to the table.
Reply:Nice RSR - Replica?  Looks very well done.  I've always had a fond spot in my heart for the 911R tail lights and those wide rear flares.Paul'82 SC'86 TurboGT2R 968T
Reply:Yes.  It's a replica.  Thanks.  It's a 1972 tub with a 1993 911 motor (3.6 liters), a modified 1977 transaxle (magnesium), a mostly-935 suspension, and all fiberglass panels except the roof.
Reply:Well I had a little time yesterday, so I fired up the Mig and made my first welds.  The bad news is that I'm pretty terrible, so far.  The good news is that I can keep practicing until I get better.  This is a first stab at a lightweight welding table.  The top is 3/16" thick, 22"x40".  It's going to be 37" high when it's done, the same height as my other workbenches.  I still need to do something for the feet -- maybe threaded feet to correct for uneven surfaces.  If I can find some with felt on the bottom, it will slide on my tile floor and I won't also need casters.  I also plan on adding some sort of stuff underneath for holding clamps and grinders for while I'm using it.You only get to do this for the first time once:
Reply:All right.  I made some progress this weekend.Here's the small welding table, buried under a couple of saws.  I added rubber feet and a couple of pieces of flat stock to hold grinders.  I put it in the space where my drill press used to go.For the fence project I want to do, I still want a bigger surface.  So my plan is still to make a fold-down table.First I made some legs out of 2" square tubing, and welded a nut to a big washer (I ground off all the zinc first), and welded it inside the tube so I could have adjustable feet.My welds are still amateur and ugly, but I'm getting practice.Since it's framed with 2"x2"x.25" angle stock, the table is pretty stout.  I don't think I'll need more support than is already there.  But if I do, I can always add it in.  The legs support the top piece, and are connected with strap hinges.  I welded on a pair of Harbor Freight 150# magnets so the legs would snap into position as the table was lowered.I used steel pieces to attach a dual trailer hitch receiver to the wall studs.  It's pretty sturdy.I'm also adding a pair of dual receivers to my other work bench.  I have a vise, an anvil and a grinder, and I want to be able to move them around.For slag and hot metal, I covered the wood walls with sheet aluminum.Here's the vise in the receiver.  I added a holder for a 32-oz hammer.  I also had some extra tensioning bolts from a parts order for my drill press, so I welded in some more nuts and each of the three receivers got an easy-to-tighten bolt.The red handle pivots so you can tighten or loosen it.I had some second thoughts once I started drilling holes in the anvil, but it's a cheap Harbor Freight model.
Reply:I painted all the aluminum and also the back of the table.  Now my woodworking fold-down table and my metal-working fold-down table look (almost) like a matched set.I mounted the drill press on the right side of my regular work bench.  You can see the vise in front of it, which is also attached with a dual hitch receiver.  (The 8" grinder is on the left side.  But they can all be switched around.)The bench folds down, and I put a set of C-clamps and vise grip clamps on the wall behind it.  They'll get a little metal dust and maybe some slag on them, but they won't catch fire.Here's a closer look.  In this picture, the grinder was mounted to the hitch receiver.The last thing I need to do is to strip the old paint off the top and front of the fold-down table.  I'll try to get to that later in the week.  I kind of took a shot in the dark as to what clamps I'll need.  (It was another trip to Harbor Freight.)The nice part is that I don't have to see much of anything when the table isn't in use.
Reply:Beautiful work!  You should be very proud of your configuration; I only wish I had my OWN garage I could work in.  My situation is similar to yours in that I'm working in my Dad's garage - all the grinding and cutting is done outside.  I am in the midst of making a fold-down table/dolly to take care of the space limitations so it's good to see someone else using a folddown table!Enjoy!
Reply:Originally Posted by scott brunsdonI reckon dig a pit, Jack, and have a table that rises out of the floor at the press of a button - just get that little car out of the way before you hit the button.