Quality vs waste: where is that line?

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I have no idea where this thread belongs, but I have a question:  where are the lines between half-a$$ed, quality and wasting time and money on a project?I got the first one figured out I think pretty well, but the second not so much. The pipe fence thread got me to thinking about this because we all seem to be doing the same thing, but almost everyone around my parts say I put too much time into them.  I notice though that they have wild hogs and cows out too. The comment usually is that whatever it is that I have built "won't go anywhere for a while". So, what do you think?   where is the general line on quality/craftsmanship and too much for a project?
Reply:In my opinion..... Build it to suit your needs and to your satisfaction and then it is done right.  If you are happy with it then it isnt overbuilt, if you look at it and say I should have done this or that then you know you didnt do enough.Please dont mistake my enthusiasm for talent!
Reply:Just to name a few things that comes to mind:Use the right tools.Make every move count.Generalize where applicable.  Custom "one of a kind" pieces always slows down production.  Keep them to a minimum. Don't over do it.  Experience and good judgment will tell you what is necessary.Set up your work day with timed breaks and lunch.  Stick to your time.  If 7:00 is work time then roll at 7:00, not 7:20.  Is quitting time is 5:00 then don't stop until then.  You can be surprised how much time can be lost in a day by not sticking to a planned work schedule.good luck
Reply:Well, I kind of agree with PF... if I build something to my satisfaction, then it's going to last.  But some friends build it to their satisfaction, and end up doing it over and over to keep it up - whatever it is.  For instance, I recently added some electric braided rope fence to create 2 more pastures for my horses.  Some friends and neighbors have this same type of fence, and they are all falling down.  They used T-posts stuck in the ground, even for the corners.  I used 5 inch treated posts set 3 feet in concrete, with the corners 6 inch posts with H brace supports.  T-Posts are great for certain types of fence, but not in this case and certainly not for corners without bracing.  IMHO, of course and YMMV.
Reply:Originally Posted by LinepipeSo, what do you think?   where is the general line on quality/craftsmanship and too much for a project?
Reply:I think it boils down to perception vs. reality.There are debates here and on just about every other forum or website devoted to craftsmanship, repair, mechanical/electrical things and any sort of automotive, the debate rages on which tools are the best.  There are some people that are elitist about owning the best money can buy at any cost and some that won't spend a dime more on something than they could pick it up for from harbor freight.Personally I like what gets the job done, for the least amount of money.  But I have to factor in the value of my time to screw around with something that breaks mid-repair, the cost of downtime on whatever I'm repairing and if there's a warranty, the time it will take me to drive back to the store or wait for a tool truck to exchange my broken item.  When I had performance based pay it made sense to have support from the tool guys now that I'm salary I'm glad that I'm almost completely paid off (still have a couple hundred left on my tool chest.  At the time I was glad to take on debt to know my tools were locked up at night).  Economically here is defined as getting the most done before the tool breaks or spending as little as possible on a one-off tool to get a job done, so in some instances HF or something comparable and cheap might be the best choice too.So really, I think that where "perception" comes into play is what people see when you do a job, and what they tell others about what you've done.  If you're charging by the hour the customer wants the job done in two seconds flat.  If you're billing by the hour and the customer thinks you are dragging *** they won't tout the benefits of using you to their friends and neighbors.  Naturally they don't want your work to fall apart a month after you finish the job either.  In a free market your abilities won't be judged as harshly as your price to produce something comparable to others in your area.  So the smartest thing to do is to cater to the quality and amount of time that is most profitable and saleable to whatever demographic works in your area.
Reply:If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, what makes you think you  have time to do it over.                                   MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:Originally Posted by mla2ofusIf you didn't have time to do it right the first time, what makes you think you  have time to do it over.                                   Mike
Reply:There are jobs that need your utmost attention, and every detail needs to be met. There are jobs that you will wind up with that are a pure hack. You often don't go into them thinking of them in this fashion, but it's what happens. or, you take a shunt of a project because let's face it: You KNOW it's a butchery, the customer wants nothing more than a band aid on the issue, and so you take it.Once there, it's really a judgement call, depending on the use of the project. A trailer I walk into on accident??? I spend the time to fix it no matter what; structural and road items get full attention. A 2 bit Chingadera shovel rack, or a wasted patio furniture piece???? I'll humor the situation and burn through the rust as best I can, but really, there is no saving it for more than a month anyhow. Just let them know it's a POS before you do the 'repair'. I have walked away from a lot of projects because they were items that HAD to be replaced, not repaired. Get in 2 hrs of grinding and prep only to find the cancer, and 'Sorry, I can't fix this. Get a new one.'And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:I think I saw a similar test question in class recently.Express the inequality function of the relationship between time spent on quality work verses actual realized benefit; and the time saved on a presumed waste of energy and the probability of it biting your butt.Show your work.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Make every job count.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:good, cheap, fast. those are your options but you can only pick 2. if its good quality and cheap, it won't be fast.if its good quality and fast, it won't be cheap.if its fast and cheap, it won't be good quality.
Reply:I try to do every job to the best of my ability's vs the amount of time the customer is willing to pay me to spend on it.   That's all i can do.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:In one shop I worked in the foreman had a term:  "rough and ready".   If he used that term it meant that the frame or whatever could be  half an inch out of square and be covered with weld spatter.  The job had been bid on that basis and there was no time allotted for any attention to detail.    Quite often it would be a temporary support or structure that would be tossed aside after the construction was done.  The trick is to know when to spend money and time and when not to.  Oh Yes ... and keep the customer happy and coming back.
Reply:My rule is: it takes the same amount of time to do it right as to do it wrong, but ya gotta have practice doing it right firstIan TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Doing a Job correctly is one thingTaking too long to do a job correctly is another thing. Doing a job half arsed just to save time is always wrong
Reply:I have a whole process. I assess the job and location and what the final product will have to endure. Then I figure out how long I want the product to last, sometimes I only need it to last a year other times it has to last a lifetime. Then I figure out what materials will last the amount of time I want the product to last but this is also where cost also gets accounted for. Cost is all personal preference depending on income/etc.While building the product I always take my time and make sure everything is right. Even on the cheap fast projects I try to make everything go as planned.I have found out that if nothing is going right you are doing it wrong.  lol
Reply:Everything I or my people do gets stamped inconspicuously by everyone that works on it.  Like the song says, "take pride in everything you sign your name to".   If you have done the best you can with whatever limitations you are give i.e. materials, time, etc. then you and only you are responsible for the finished product - and only you know if you have given it your all.It might be kind of cliche, but it works for us.When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, "This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know," the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives.
Reply:I have spent most of my teen and adult life working in various service industries for the last 25 years in commercial and residential settings and the line is what I would define as "Do the kind of work that you would expect a professional to do for you".  One of my jobs lasted for 6 years and it took me into customers homes and into businesses and for most everyone I treated it as if it were my home and or business except in rare occasions such as a hoarders home or a crack house or two and then it was a get-out-of-there-as-fast-as-possible scenario.  During my time with that company I rarely had a repeat service call and I generally received commendations from my customers while at the same time the work that some of the other technicians did would get complaints and they would have short life spans with the company.Keep in mind that some times the work you have to do will take time more time than you had initially counted on or told you should spend the time on if it is a work order that comes from a corporate office a thousand miles away that was put together by engineers who have never seen the light of day in the work that you do such as I have learned over the years working for two giants of industry.  If you have to ask yourself " am I doing quality work? " then probably the answer is no and you should work to make it better quality work but if you can look at what your doing and feel a sense of pride and accomplishment and surety that what you have done will last as long as it is required and beyond then you have nothing to worry about unless you are taking way to long to do the work that is required on every job you do and as such you should put yourself to task at increasing your speed without compromising quality.