I need some help

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I am building a pole to pick up about 5000 Lbs out of a 20 ft. container and don't know what thickness the pipe needs to be so it can hold the weight of the load 20 ft away. I have a lift that can handle the weight but I don't want to spend all the money and time building it just to have it fail on the first lift, and maybe hurt someone on my crew. I do a lot of projects around here but none have been load bearing. any help will bee greatly appreciated. Something like this only bigger. Attached ImagesI carry guns because cops are too heavy. .. ..-.   -.-- --- ..-   - .... .. -. -.-   .... .- .-. -..   . -. --- ..- --. ....   -.-- --- ..-   -.-. .- -.   ..-. .. --. ..- .-. .   .- -. -.-- - .... .. -. --.   --- ..- -
Reply:5000lbs on a lift isn't impressive, but one that can handle 5000lbs at the end of a 20' pole without tipping, is had to conceive.I think you need to consult an engineer on this one!
Reply:To lift 5000 lbs @20' without dragging, just a dead lift, you're probably going to have to think about something like 12" pipe, with at least ½" wall, and a serious forklift, probably 15,000 # minimum. I've made such picks by slipping a large pipe over a fork, but it is "high stress" on everything, and strictly for a lift, not for riding around. Common size forks will not handle that kind of cantilever load; to take some load off the forks you'll want to connect a chain between a high point on the carriage, and to the pipe, somewhere beyond the fork tips.Be careful!
Reply:Does it need to be just a single pole? If you had three poles arranged in a triangular cross section with bracing between them,  would that give you a better strength to weight ratio and better resistance to bending?
Reply:I have a 20,000 lb lift. I can't drag because they are stacked and are built on racks that will colapse if you drag them. I was also thinking of Ibeams.I carry guns because cops are too heavy. .. ..-.   -.-- --- ..-   - .... .. -. -.-   .... .- .-. -..   . -. --- ..- --. ....   -.-- --- ..-   -.-. .- -.   ..-. .. --. ..- .-. .   .- -. -.-- - .... .. -. --.   --- ..- -
Reply:I beams tend to fail in torsion when supported from one end only.  Can you guarantee that the load will be perfectly balanced (still sounds dangerous though)?A truss would be better, but needs to be engineered.The idea of chaining the pipe to the mast is a good one.BUT, just because your lift is rated for 10 tons, doesn't mean its counterweight can balance this.  At 10 tons capacity, that should be with the load centered on the tines (a 2' lever arm).With a 20' lever arm, you could start to tip at only 1 ton.BTW, my search on fork extensions, says that OSHA does not permit more than a 50% length extension, and that is with the manufacturer's approval, and de-rating.
Reply:A 5000 lb load at the end of a 20 ft 'pole'?Just to counterbalance that load, never mind the weight of the'pole' or any other 'stuff' hanging off the front, you'll need 10,000 lbs 10 feet back of the 'pivot' point.Ixnay on the DIY fork extension.And for that 5000 lb load at the end of a 20 ft long 'pole'?  The machine notwithstanding, you are looking at something like a 18 x 12 x 1/2 (inches) rectangular tube.  That would have a 1" sag at the end, if the 'pole' were cantilevered 20 ft 'out' with 15 ft  'anchored' back into the machine/structure.  That's about 3500 lbs of 'beam/pole' right there.  And that size most likely would NOT meet lifting/crane required service/safety factors.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I'm definitely not an engineer, nor do I know much about material strengths best for the job.  I've seen things like this used for picking rolls of carpet out of a pile.  The weight isn't all on the very tip of the boom, it's spread out along the whole length of the boom.  I'm sure that'll make a big difference.  The booms on these roll pickers looked to only be like a 4" diameter pipe of unknown thickness.  I also don't know what a roll of carpet weighs but I know they aren't light...probably not 5000 pounds though.www.lindgrensupercars.comMiller Dynasty 350Miller Dynasty 200DX - retiredMiller Millermatic 210Miller Spectrum 3080Miller "Power of Blue" stool  Miller Syncrowave 180SD - retired
Reply:I have worked on forklifts most of my life and I can't even figure out what would pick that.Moonrise seems to have it in calculations.20 feet 5,000 lbs is sure a LONG ways away.  Nuttin like a carpet pole or paper pole.Most forklifts are rated at a 24" load center, so a 20,000 lb machine would pick 20,000 lb at 24"10,000 lb @ 48"5,000 lb @ 72" ?Only 14 feet to go......SO even if we start with a 50,000 lb forklift.......Just baffles mePerhaps an overhead crane?David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:If you posted pics of what you're tryin' to lift, there may be a different way to skin the cat.  Sounds like a mess.  How did they get the stuff on the container at the other end when it was shipped?"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Just sittin here thinkin.  A set of forks that would pick 5,000 lbs @ 20 feet would weigh a few tons alone.Your subject line is correct, you need help  DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:would work on rolls of carpet
Reply:The pipe and 20K lift would do it. It's not for the first-time operator, or the hurried, careless, or spectators, but it can be safely done.This would have to be strictly a low and slow pick, calculated so that the worst consequence would be a "touch down" of the load.A machine's "rated load"is much less than it's static tipping load. And the static tipping load is the main concern for a low and slow lift. A 20K rated truck probably has an operating weight of  25K - 35K, and at that weight it's probably factory approved for additional counter-weighting.To keep the math simple, let's go conservative and say that an example truck weighs just 25,000#  and tips with a load of 20,000 @ 10ft, and 10,000 @20 ft. There's still plenty of capacity -as far as weights go- to counterbalance 5000 @ 20ft. Of course with some "undocumented" tricks, the tipping capacity can be pushed even further.The material strength of the boom and lift is still a concern; but as far as counter-weighting is concerned, there's plenty of capacity in a 20K rated truck for this pick.Try it on your wife's Cadillac first!
Reply:if the load is evenly distributed (as stated ),then it averages to 2500 lbs at 10' . that's certainly doable with the 10 ton lift capacity. need more info on the item being lifted --like multiple contact oints or one smooth surface ? diameter or size of access hole ?
Reply:Is this something which would be used often?Do you have hydraulic power available? If so, make a 'boom' with a tilting end foot which drops down to the ground to carry that end. Have a sliding section on the boom driven by a chain in turn driven by a hydraulic motor (or have a rack and pinion driven by hydraulics) and on that moving section, have a hydraulic hoist to raise the load. You know, the kind of thing Farmersamm would build. Lastly, paint it bright  Orange so nobody will walk into it when it's not being used.If the foot needs to be different lengths, you could have the hinged foot be a telescoping section or (cheaper) have double or triple hinged segments which work separately. For shorter work, it stands on the first or second 'knee'.
Reply:Geez denrep, I disagree with you.  MOST forklifts weigh just about twice what they will pick at a 24" load center (rated capacity) and it goes down from there as you go further out.  Just look at the little curved chart on the machines.  I think a machine that weighs 25,000 lbs would tip with 10,000 at 4 foot load center.  Sure as heck 5,000 at an 8' load center.  Just from experience. Perhaps we should ask alfred?   Originally Posted by denrepTo keep the math simple, let's go conservative and say that an example truck weighs just 25,000#  and tips with a load of 20,000 @ 10ft, and 10,000 @20 ft. There's still plenty of capacity -as far as weights go- to counterbalance 5000 @ 20ft. Of course with some "undocumented" tricks, the tipping capacity can be pushed even further.The material strength of the boom and lift is still a concern; but as far as counter-weighting is concerned, there's plenty of capacity in a 20K rated truck for this pick.Try it on your wife's Cadillac first!
Reply:Originally Posted by David R...Perhaps we should ask alfred?
Reply:Realistically, if you add up all the time you'll spend figuring this out, sourcing material, then you buy the material, pay for delivery, work it to a structure to move the beastly load, and set it up in place....Just call a crane company. No threat to yourself, or your crew. Minimal threat to the beasty load to be moved. Done in about 20 minutes flat. You'll come out ahead if you think about it. Sometimes, it is better to spend a few hundred bucks to have someone with a bigger hammer hit stuff for you.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:I concur with alfred!David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:It may be benificial to just hire a crane to do the lift?Life is tuff,so be sharp  lincoln sp 100  cutmaster101  miller bobcat  miller 250 mig  $thousands in snapon
Reply:So today Alfred "piped up" again: "Denrep, when you asked me about that pipe-boom it reminded me that there's an old pipe and some chains stored out back. Sometimes the dog chases critters who hide in the pipe. I'm afraid the dog's head could get stuck in the pipe; should I take the pipe over to Sagamore?"I took some pictures of it for you:Attachment 25638No Alfred, you can't junk that pipe; it's a boom, we're saving it for historic purposes only. We're gonna donate it to the material handling museum.What would it have been good for Denrep?Alfred, if you were on a deserted island in international waters, and a container washed ashore carrying diesel engines...Yes?Well, someone resourceful, -like you Alfred- could fit that boom to a decent forklift. Then you could reach in the container to about 18 feet, and lift out  an engine. You also would have enough reach to use the boom to plant replacement engines in your boat.Denrep, boat diesels could weigh over 5000 pounds each;  are you sure?I'm positive; that pipe has demonstrated some amazing feats of strength.Wow, I wish I could have seen it in action. Before we send it to the museum, you think we could lift something, -you know- just for historic reenactment purposes?We might, Alfred.Could we take pictures to post too?Get back to work Alfred!Last edited by denrep; 08-24-2009 at 11:22 AM.
Reply:I don't know who is better, Alfred or Denrep  ThanksDavid Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I don't know the dimensions of the items you are loading or unloading from the containers but could you build a rolling gantry on a heavy rated scaffold or welded structural steel frame on large casters with a beam across the top with a chain fall. Remove the closest items within reach of your forklift and then cart the others 1 at time to the opening and remove with fork lift. Seems gantry could be used for other things as well. More info on the items would help."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:IF a suitable forktruck could be found, then a pipe would not have to be quite that large if a chain were run and attatched to the lifting end of the pipe and the other end attatched to a higher point on the mast of the lift.  Then there should be little or no problem with pipe dimensions.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I was away in the sticks so I haven’t been at my pc. Thanks for all the help. With new info I have decided to scrap the boom idea. The lifts are slow and low but still it’s not worth one accident. Kolot has the idea I thought about this weekend a rolling lift will be the best idea. Just lift and pull it with the fork truck to the end of the container. It will prevent most mishaps and reduce the risk to any worker. I would be doing the lifts but I can’t be in 20 places at once so I’m going to build the safest way possible. I’ll post pics as I go. Thanks again.I carry guns because cops are too heavy. .. ..-.   -.-- --- ..-   - .... .. -. -.-   .... .- .-. -..   . -. --- ..- --. ....   -.-- --- ..-   -.-. .- -.   ..-. .. --. ..- .-. .   .- -. -.-- - .... .. -. --.   --- ..- -This is what i'm lifting. Can you find the dime? Attached ImagesI carry guns because cops are too heavy. .. ..-.   -.-- --- ..-   - .... .. -. -.-   .... .- .-. -..   . -. --- ..- --. ....   -.-- --- ..-   -.-. .- -.   ..-. .. --. ..- .-. .   .- -. -.-- - .... .. -. --.   --- ..- -
Reply:jack one end and put a caster dolly under it.  Then do the other.  Problems solved.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Damn Cap'n "Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Those are really big Party PoppersEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Rocket motors?Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Ain't gonna just put a dolly under those babies, they've already shifted by the look of it.If the damn things had been made in the States, they would have been loaded on a flat, and there wouldn't be this problem.  Add shipping damage to receiving costs etc. etc., this overseas stuff costs a lot more than what's on the invoice."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Really big wine or brandy bottles?      The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:No, FarmerSammI think it is the union workers in the docks that cause that kind of damage.When I was growing up,  my dad sold those soviet built tractors.  The dock workers in Milwaukee would purposely damage the tractors.  They even dropped quite a few into Lake Michigan.  A few were dropped from about 40 foot up too.  It would crack the transmission housing and bend the axle shafts.  Still good for parts though.  They were actually caught inflicting damage on the product many times.   But with union regs, no action could be taken.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I used to haul pigs off the rail.  It was pretty common to see a load that gone blown nearly 4 feet thru the doors of the container.  Rail starts, and stops are pretty gruesome.  A lot of it depends on how the load was secured.  And the stack pack cars really have a lot of sway to 'em."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:They are uncut stabilizers for oil wells. (I was thinking canon.) The frames are not built very well and are easily damaged under that much weight. They are secured with cheep straps by people that just want to get them off their dock, after that it’s my problem. When I was a truck driver I use to haul them and the rack would be crushed by the weight just going down the road. Very dangerous if you’re not paying attention. I would have to stop about four or five times and re secure the load in just about 200 miles. A real pain in the anyways.I carry guns because cops are too heavy. .. ..-.   -.-- --- ..-   - .... .. -. -.-   .... .- .-. -..   . -. --- ..- --. ....   -.-- --- ..-   -.-. .- -.   ..-. .. --. ..- .-. .   .- -. -.-- - .... .. -. --.   --- ..- -
Reply:Attachment 25765 Originally Posted by captdave2612This is what i'm lifting. Can you find the dime?
Reply:Whoever loaded that really screwed you.  For starters, the shipping frame/container should be able to protect that stovepipe coming out of the top for handling purposes.  Second, the stack on the right side fell over a bit in transit.  That one is going to be a little difficult without dropping it.  I would start with the ones on the left and drag them to the back of the container and hoist the top one using straps.  After that, the lower one should be straightforward.  The pair on the right are a different story.  From what I see in the picture,  any attempt to move the lower one is probably going to result in dropping the one on top.  That is going to take some thinking on the fly something like a Luhl.  In any event, if someone has to be near the lift point, make sure that the have a safe place to be when the moving takes place.  How fragile are these things?  You may be better off yanking the one out of under the other and just letting the upper one fall.  The way I see things,  the damage already happened in transit due to improper loading and crating.  I used to load a lot of trucks and would get strange things once in a while.  Remember to work smarter.  Any time that you work harder with significant loads, you are looking for an accident.  Good luck,Rene
Reply:just doodelin. use the part for the boom.can you cut the top of the trailer Attached ImagesA butterfly without wings, is just an ugly bug
Reply:Originally Posted by zerepenerWhoever loaded that really screwed you.  For starters, the shipping frame/container should be able to protect that stovepipe coming out of the top for handling purposes.  Second, the stack on the right side fell over a bit in transit.  That one is going to be a little difficult without dropping it.  I would start with the ones on the left and drag them to the back of the container and hoist the top one using straps.  After that, the lower one should be straightforward.  The pair on the right are a different story.  From what I see in the picture,  any attempt to move the lower one is probably going to result in dropping the one on top.  That is going to take some thinking on the fly something like a Luhl.  In any event, if someone has to be near the lift point, make sure that the have a safe place to be when the moving takes place.  How fragile are these things?  You may be better off yanking the one out of under the other and just letting the upper one fall.  The way I see things,  the damage already happened in transit due to improper loading and crating.  I used to load a lot of trucks and would get strange things once in a while.  Remember to work smarter.  Any time that you work harder with significant loads, you are looking for an accident.  Good luck,Rene
Reply:Originally Posted by Magnetic Mechanicjust doodelin. use the part for the boom.can you cut the top of the trailer
Reply:Originally Posted by captdave2612They will take a beating but I can't just let them fall it's not mine. I don't want to damage the freight or the container. We have been draging them with a chain, but I can see a problem comming.
Reply:Any way you can get a construction type extendable type (boom style) forklift on the dock?  You see them moving sheetrock at construction sites.Last edited by farmersamm; 12-03-2008 at 04:36 PM."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:More of the same. Attached ImagesI carry guns because cops are too heavy. .. ..-.   -.-- --- ..-   - .... .. -. -.-   .... .- .-. -..   . -. --- ..- --. ....   -.-- --- ..-   -.-. .- -.   ..-. .. --. ..- .-. .   .- -. -.-- - .... .. -. --.   --- ..- -
Reply:It is a bit crowded in there, but it still looks as if you have room in back for a 'rear foot'. That could be detachable rather than hinged, to get it in easier and  could be a heavy pipe or square tubing. You could have two 'I' beams sitting side by side maybe 6-12" apart, their center piece vertical so that a trolley could run on the lower flanges while the top flanges and both ends could be tied together. The outside end would be attached to the forklift to be able to raise/lower and move in/out for positioning.An electric hoist w/ multiple block reduction below, could pick the frames up, the trolley could carry them forward; once outside and lowered enough, a second forklift could get in from the side and take over.How many of these will you be moving? That determines how fancy/expensive you build things beyond the basics, I suppose.
Reply:Hey, ya know???I wonder if we're all barkin' up the wrong tree.  Why not lease/rent/hire an extenda crane to unload the damn things in the yard, then set 'em on the dock where it's easy to pick 'em??"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:When I've had to move something heavy and had no other means, I have used rollers with great success. One inch pipe ought to be strong enough.Jack the racks up, lashing together if needed for safety, and start slipping short lengths of pipe under while dragging the rack.Frequent repositioning is needed, and some steering required, but so long as the container is semi-close to level they should roll without too much trouble.Good luck Cap'n.
Reply:Originally Posted by daddy...I have used rollers with great success....
Reply:I wonder if we're all barkin' up the wrong tree. Why not lease/rent/hire an extenda crane to unload the damn things in the yard, then set 'em on the dock where it's easy to pick 'em??
Reply:Take a set of fork extenders, add attachment brackets and design height adjustable cradle risers that can be attached after forks/extensions are in place. you will need to include a cable or solid truss type support that attach's at the top of rigging.Miller TrailBlazer 251Miller HF-250-1Miller MaxStar 150 STLHyperTherm PowerMax 380 plasmaLincoln PowerMig 180Millermatic 252Miller Diversion 180
Reply:BTW - What the he** are they.They look look mill rollers?A butterfly without wings, is just an ugly bug