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My son and I have a Hobart 140 MIG which we have used in the garage for little jobs. Still trying to get semi-proficient with it. Buying a tank for mixed argon sure seemed to make it easier than the flux core.We have some small farm equipment which needs some metal work and I'm looking at two stick welders for outdoor work. I'd prefer a transformer model since I've read they might be a bit more robust than the electronic board models. This will be used in the field, running off a gen set. Welding such stuff as the side panels on a bush hog where rocks or stumps have ripped the skirt. Attaching weigh to a harrow. (Stuff like old brake rotors.) The Lincoln, based on how long it's been around, looks like a fairly bullet proof design. The Miller has infinite adjustment but also has a crank on top. Since this will be moved to and from the field, I was concerned about the Miller's crank on top, meaning, is it was likely to get busted? We'll haul it in a pick-up and be slow and careful, but this will go over rough roads.Any insights or thoughts would be appreciated on which you think might be the better. Or am I totally overlooking some better unit in this price range. ($400 to $500) Thanks.
Reply:I’ll bet a lot of busted farm equipment has been stuckback together with the Lincoln 225ac.Thunderbolts have been around a long time also.Some Thunderbolts have front amperage adjust, someon top, depending on when it was made. The lastTransformer T-bolts had the crank in front.The cranks have been made out of plastic for quite a few years now so I suppose it could get damaged with some rough handling. I’ve used both and like the Miller.Others will disagree.Miller a/c-d/c Thunderbolt XLMillermatic 180 Purox O/ASmith Littletorch O/AHobart Champion Elite
Reply:I've had several of the Thunderbolts....the earlier ones have the crank on top, but the later ones have it on the front. The crank on the front is actually more likely to get damaged, but still not a major concern. The crank on top isn't a delicate thing, so I wouldn't be too worried. You're probably just as likely to break the amperage selector on the face of a Tombstone as the crank on a Thunderbolt. I think the infinitely variable voltage is a nice upgrade from the fixed taps on the Tombstone, but it's not a massive difference. Hard to go wrong with either machine. I'd lean towards the Thunderbolt if condition is in the same ballpark.Check out my bench vise website: http://mivise.comMiller Syncrowave 250DXMillermatic 350P with XR AlumaProMiller Regency 200 with 22A feeder and Spoolmatic 3Hobart Champion EliteEverlast PowerTig 210EXT
Reply:Harbor Freight makes a unit that is internally a pretty exact clone of the Miller unit (https://www.harborfreight.com/weldin...put-63620.html). If you forced me to choose between the Miller and the Lincoln, I would choose the Miller and have owned both. But the Lincoln weighs almost 120 lbs and the Miller something like 140 lbs. I wouldn't choose either one to be honest. Lincoln Electric says you need a 15Kw Generator to run the 225 AC/DC https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-z...ze-detail.aspxIf it were me I would go with this https://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc.c...der-0700500070It comes with a three year warranty, lots of members here have experience with them, like them and can vouch for ESAB equipment holding up to abuse. Plus it will run on a much smaller generator.Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:Pretty sure my Thunderbolt is 105lbs.Miller a/c-d/c Thunderbolt XLMillermatic 180 Purox O/ASmith Littletorch O/AHobart Champion Elite
Reply:If you can swing 650$ the Esab 180i gets my vote. I can't believe how smooth that machine is. Input current is about half of the transformer machines which is a huge bonus if you don't have a heavier duty welder circuit.
Reply:Actually it would be more like 575$ since Esab currently has a 75$ rebate on that machine.
Reply:There are several different variations of Thunderbolt. The AC/DC 150A output (on DC) model with a top crank is listed at 115lbs. The AC/DC 200A output (on DC) model with a front crank shows 135lbs. The AC/DC 150A output (on DC) model with a front crank is listed as 105lbs and the 200A output (on DC ) version is 135lbs.Check out my bench vise website: http://mivise.comMiller Syncrowave 250DXMillermatic 350P with XR AlumaProMiller Regency 200 with 22A feeder and Spoolmatic 3Hobart Champion EliteEverlast PowerTig 210EXT
Reply:I will say up front Im a Lincoln guy. Given the choice between the AC225 and Thunderbolt I would choose the Miller. Only because of the infinite adjustment, which I think is critical. Having said all that you cannot say the old AC225 has not been a successful machine for Lincoln. Your money, your choice Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSteveMiller Dialarc 250 (1990)Miller Maxstar 140 STR (2003)Lincoln SA200 Redface Pipeliner (1966)Lincoln MP210 (2015)Victor and MECO torches
Reply:Lincoln Tombstone or Miller Thunderbolts are both great. AC/DC is the way to go for sure.I prefer Miller adjustment instead of the fixed settings on the Lincoln.Northern Illinois / Southern Wisconsin prices go from $250 to $400 for AC/DC depending on machine, age, and condition Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:Thank you to all who responded to my question. It all helped. Especially Louie1961 mentioning a 15kW gen set. I've got a 15 for the house (welcome to Coastal Florida) but it is a BEAR to move. The ESAB suggested only suggests a 7kW. So, I asked for advice and several mentioned the ESAB ES180i model. I've looked at it the brochures and don't know a couple of terms.The brochure states it has settings for "arc force" and "hot start." I don't know enough to even know what they're saying. Any help appreciated.Thanks again.
Reply:Hot start makes it easier to start electrodes by upping the amps by an adjustable percentage for a second or so. Arc force is an adjustment that makes it easier to keep an electrode lit under various arc lengths. The low amp draw of the 180i is a huge factor if using a generator.
Reply:adjustable arc force and hot start are REALLY GOOD THINGS. They are not necessary by any means, but then again, neither is air conditioning in Florida technically necessary. Its kind of like that. ;-) Hot start keeps you from sticking the rod, and arc force increases the amperage as you decrease the arc length. It essentially makes the difference between a soft buttery arc and an aggressive, digging arc. Most people tend to set the arc force high when using cellulose rods (i.e, 601X), and set it low for non cellulose rods like 7018s. But that isn't a hard and fast rule. I have seen Jody Collier set the arc force high with 7018 rods in one particular situation (overhead welding I think?).Miller Multimatic 255
Reply:The new TBolts are inverters. The older ones are transformers. Ive used a few different older transformer TBolts. (Bought them at auctions, then resold them). I like the way the older TBolts welded. Ive never had the chance to weld with one of the newer inverter TBolts. Although, I have welded lots with the 210 max stars.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Originally Posted by Louie1961adjustable arc force and hot start are REALLY GOOD THINGS. They are not necessary by any means, but then again, neither is air conditioning in Florida technically necessary. Its kind of like that. ;-) Hot start keeps you from sticking the rod, and arc force increases the amperage as you decrease the arc length. It essentially makes the difference between a soft buttery arc and an aggressive, digging arc. Most people tend to set the arc force high when using cellulose rods (i.e, 601X), and set it low for non cellulose rods like 7018s. But that isn't a hard and fast rule. I have seen Jody Collier set the arc force high with 7018 rods in one particular situation (overhead welding I think?).
Reply:I guess it really would be nice to have adjustable arc force. I don't have it on either of my machines.I can run higher amps on the Ranger when I want a hotter arc, but I'm limited on the Crackerbox to the max 125amps when running 7018. I don't particularly like how Lincoln Excalibur runs on the Crackerbox..........I feel it's a bit cold, too buttery.I have found that Atom Arc Acclaim (the Excalibur equivalent) runs hotter, and works better on the Crackerbox. I've also picked up a can of regular Atom Arc 7018 after hearing that it has a very nice "dig". Still haven't opened the can yet, but I'm looking forward to it.A soft buttery arc always makes me nervous. I like heat. Lincoln has never failed me, but having the opportunity to run a hotter rod just makes me feel better. Sorta silly I guess.
Reply:Oh yeah..........my vote..........Buy the Lincoln. Great machine, will last a lifetime.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmOh yeah..........my vote..........Buy the Lincoln. Great machine, will last a lifetime.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DThe Esab 180i has a separate 6010 setting which automatically changes the arc force. As far as I know arc force changes the voltage not the amperage to suit arc length. Hot start ups your amps to avoid cold starts in addition to making it easier to strike.
Reply:I know I sound like a stuck record BUT, if your looking for a great old school stick machine IMHO you cant beat the Lincoln Idealarc250 AC/DC machines. Many out there and if you take your time you can find them at a reasonable price. The round tops were made from 1956-1989 then they went to the flat top style. If your a Miller guy the Dialarc 250 machines are great welders as well. Either one will serve you well for many years. Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSteveMiller Dialarc 250 (1990)Miller Maxstar 140 STR (2003)Lincoln SA200 Redface Pipeliner (1966)Lincoln MP210 (2015)Victor and MECO torches
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammmOh yeah..........my vote..........Buy the Lincoln. Great machine, will last a lifetime.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1running it off a generator?
Reply:Originally Posted by G-ManBartSure, why not? Running off DC it's listed as pulling a max of 36A, and it's probably not too likely he'd need to run it maxed out, so maybe 30A max is more than reasonable. Anything 7Kw or bigger should work.
Reply:I withdraw my suggestion if this is for field work off a generator. The Idealarc250 is 350 lbs and needs 50A to work correctly or more. Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSteveMiller Dialarc 250 (1990)Miller Maxstar 140 STR (2003)Lincoln SA200 Redface Pipeliner (1966)Lincoln MP210 (2015)Victor and MECO torches
Reply:Forget those old AC welders, it was written early about the ESAB 180, I have a ESAB 161 and it will run off 120 AC 20 Amp breaker on a 100' extension cord. Yeah its more cheddar but worth it!It seemed like a good idea at the time!Originally Posted by Broccoli1But why get a heavy arse welder to lug out in the field? Rogue 180 is 18lbs.60% @ 116A (230V) | 60% @ 65A (120V)Lincoln 114lbs.125A DC/25V/20%, 225A AC/25V/20%
Reply:The inconvenience is getting and moving a generator big enough to run said welder. At that point an engine drive is probably a better option.
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1running it off a generator? the OP stated..." This will be used in the field, running off a gen set"
Reply:Originally Posted by G-ManBartIn his first post he said he was leery of inverter welder reliability. If you're already lugging a generator out to the field it's probably not too big of an inconvenience to put a welder in the tractor/skid steer's bucket at the same time.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDaveI'm a die hard transformer fan...and I worry about inverter reliability. Having said that, I love the portability of my Thermal Arc 161. Runs great off a 6500 watt generator too. For bigger work, I really like my Miller Bobcat 225nt engine drive. Welds good, plenty of power, runs the tools.
Reply:Im late to the thread but Id opt for ac dc thunderbolt transformer machine. Reason being is the infinite current adjustment. If you use this rig for scratch start Tig, this adjustment will allow you to dial in current to fit the materials. I have the Sears/century type w infinite adjuster and I will burn a little and stop and tweak as needed. Actually thinking of adding a threaded crank handle like the little thunderbolt. Slightly related, I fashioned an improvised 3 pr to 4 prong nema circuit to run off my 220 5200 W generator. Of course this is severely limited. This is planned only for emergency usage. I was able to light and burn 3/32 6013 at 75 A in several tests. Rpm sags a tad in the start but it did work. Regards.Last edited by Continuum; 04-30-2021 at 10:12 AM.
Reply:Just sold my AC Thunderbolt on the weekend for $55Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk:
Reply:Originally Posted by Lis2323Just sold my AC Thunderbolt on the weekend for $55Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:Oh yeah.............the little toy welder doesn't have AC capability. A big fail. I'm not sure anybody offers a good ac/dc welder anymore except for the old Lincoln, and some of the TIG machinesI guess the portability is the tradeoff on the new toys.IMHO of course
Reply:Originally Posted by ContinuumHey Lis,This doesnt look like your normally immaculate tooling displays. Frayed chord? Bent lid? Something doesnt add up.
Reply:Originally Posted by Lis2323Just sold my AC Thunderbolt on the weekend for $55Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply:I would venture a guess that "portability" in the eyes of farmers is a lot different than most people. They usually have plenty of hydraulics and wheels around - skid steers, mini excavators, tractors, loaders, telehandlers, you name it. Picking up a 400lb welder or 1000lb generator (might even have one on a cart running off a PTO?) isn't usually a problem.With that having been said, going back to the OP: Originally Posted by FloridaAlMy son and I have a Hobart 140 MIG which we have used in the garage for little jobs. Still trying to get semi-proficient with it. Buying a tank for mixed argon sure seemed to make it easier than the flux core.We have some small farm equipment which needs some metal work and I'm looking at two stick welders for outdoor work. I'd prefer a transformer model since I've read they might be a bit more robust than the electronic board models. This will be used in the field, running off a gen set. Welding such stuff as the side panels on a bush hog where rocks or stumps have ripped the skirt. Attaching weigh to a harrow. (Stuff like old brake rotors.) The Lincoln, based on how long it's been around, looks like a fairly bullet proof design. The Miller has infinite adjustment but also has a crank on top. Since this will be moved to and from the field, I was concerned about the Miller's crank on top, meaning, is it was likely to get busted? We'll haul it in a pick-up and be slow and careful, but this will go over rough roads.Any insights or thoughts would be appreciated on which you think might be the better. Or am I totally overlooking some better unit in this price range. ($400 to $500) Thanks.
Reply:Originally Posted by FlyFishnI would venture a guess that "portability" in the eyes of farmers is a lot different than most people. They usually have plenty of hydraulics and wheels around - skid steers, mini excavators, tractors, loaders, telehandlers, you name it. Picking up a 400lb welder or 1000lb generator (might even have one on a cart running off a PTO?) isn't usually a problem.With that having been said, going back to the OP:I would still suggest a transformer welder. Even more - I would suggest a Lincoln Idealarc 250 or a Miller Dialarc. You should be able to find DC versions (they did have AC-onlys). With a DC welder you can run 6010 rod. The big heavy transformer welders will run 6010 no problem. Smaller inverter machines will have a harder time running those rods. Why you should take note of 6010 is if you are welding on dirty, rusty, oily metal out in the field - this is the rod you want to use. 6011 is up there, also, as a good rod (and will run on AC, 6010 will not) but it doesn't stack up quite to what you get with a 6010. If you start running 6010 on a good heavy transformer welder you'll never know it is a hard rod to run. That will get you better welds off the bat than trying to learn on a harder machine to run the rod with. As far as the amperage required to run a welder - that doesn't necessarily mean the peak amperage the welder can draw. You size the rods to the job and the rod type/size determines the amperage range to run the welder at. If you have a 200 amp welder that doesn't mean you'll run 200a. For a 3/32" 6011 rod, for example, you'll be around the 40-80a range. Your welder won't draw the same input amperage at 80a or less as it will at max 200a. Another thing you want to understand is the difference between running wattage and peak/starting wattage of a generator. Welding does take a lot of power. That load can cause a lighter power source (even a lighter circuit, or a circuit with other loads running at times on it - say an air conditioner, band saw or some other machine - should be on separate circuits) to sag in voltage. That voltage sag will play with your weld quality. If you are drawing peak power of your welder up in the clouds in that "starting wattage" range of your generator you are likely to find that voltage dropping. That drop in voltage is going to affect your welds and ability to weld (possibly causing the arc to drop - especially on 6010 rods). If you keep that input power draw within the running wattage range you are much more likely to have stable voltage and thus stable arc performance as you weld. Generators' wattage is a bit of a screwball game. The math behind the wattage is as follows:Watts = volts x ampsSo if you have a 15,000 watt generator, then at 230v that would be (15,000/230) = 65.217 ampsHowever, what is the main line circuit breaker on the generator rated to? Are there multiple main line circuit breakers? Say, a 40a 240/120v breaker, a separate 30a 120v breaker, and a separate 20a breaker feeding a bank of 6x 5-15r outlets? If you legitimately need 50 amps for a welder and the MLCB is 40a you aren't going to get there or stay there long. The other kicker is a generator may be rated to what ever wattage. In reality, the engine may not have the HP/torque to push that power. For example - I have a small 2400-2600 watt open frame generator that has a 30 amp breaker for the 120/240 outlet. (30a x 230v) = 7200 watts. That breaker is more than twice the wattage the generator is capable of and I have never tripped it. All it is for me is an on/off switch so I can have a circuit hooked in with the engine running and not have power to the circuit. When I do get up in wattage/amperage draw it drags the engine down and will stall it. If the load is too much (well pump for example) it will try to get the load to go but will stall. My Idealarc 250 (transformer welder) draws 6a at idle. When I turn that on running on the small generator it immediately kills the engine - the cooling fan on the welder never moves - there is too much dead current required to get the power through the transformer to get that system running for the generator to even touch, thats not even attempting to weld, thats just to get to turn on in the first place. If you are not dead set on having a separate welder and generator then I would join the camp of getting an engine drive unit like a Lincoln SA200. That will alleviate all your power issues. What you will loose is having the AC capability. The SA200's are DC-only. That also means that you can't use them as a generator for power tools or back-up power for your house. Miller has some engine drives that are dual AC/DC, but Lincoln does not offer that. Quite frankly, if I needed heavy field welding then a DC engine drive would be the route I'd go. I already have generators and I'd much rather run a tiny inverter generator for my (quiet!) field power then only run a big engine for when I needed it - the heavy welding, if that were the case. Otherwise, why run a big engine for a job when you really only need it for a couple minutes of the whole day??? Heck, even a good size power inverter off of a vehicle battery might get you all the AC power you need for power tools, though I do find the small inverter generators more convenient. Hope this helps and best of luck.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DA idealarc or dialarc for portable welding off a generator, yeah right. A SA -200 ? You do realize what they cost and having extremely limited 115 power that is only DC is not only limiting but entirely impractical for farm use where running air compressor or any array of tools and pumps is often required.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DA idealarc or dialarc for portable welding off a generator, yeah right.
Reply:Originally Posted by FlyFishnIf you watch used listings (facebook marketplace, craigslist, etc) you can find some good deals out there. I think I paid around $125-150 for my 1966 idealarc 250. It had a froze up cooling fan, other than that (easy fix by the way) it welded great and I haven't done any electrical work on it other than swap the power cord/plug.
Reply:Originally Posted by G-ManBartJust for fun I ran my Dialarc 250 off my Hobart Champion Elite which is an 11Kw generator....worked perfectly. Many, if not most, farmers have a generator big enough to run that size machine. Those welders are probably overkill for what the OP is talking about, but they certainly would do the job.Only the OP can tell if that sort of combo would be practical or not for his situation...how far he'd be moving the welder and generator, if he has a trailer to put them on, etc. For some folks it would be a great setup, and others might find it totally impractical.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DA idealarc or dialarc for portable welding off a generator, yeah right. A SA -200 ? You do realize what they cost and having extremely limited 115 power that is only DC is not only limiting but entirely impractical for farm use where running air compressor or any array of tools and pumps is often required.
Reply:Originally Posted by MinnesotaDavePersonally, I like inverter machines on generators, transformer machines - not so much...I really like the little Bobcat 225nt engine drive. It's so much lighter than the SA200 I had, welds good, and also runs power tools really well.I've even run my house twice with it.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DYou made my point. Farmers who have a generator large enough to run a power hungry beast generally have the said large enough generator in the form of an engine drive welder. Other than testing something running a large stick welder off of an engine drive welder is pointless.
Reply:Originally Posted by G-ManBartNo, I really didn't make your point at all. If the OP had an engine drive welder he wouldn't be looking to buy a stick welder to run off a generator and he hasn't shared what size generator he's using. He very well might have something more than capable of running a transformer stick welder on the work he's planning. It doesn't really take a huge generator until you're doing pretty heavy work and lots of farmers have big generators that aren't welders.Even a common 7Kw generator from Harbor Freight would power a Dialarc 250 running 1/8" rods....and that's not a big generator.I only mentioned running the Dialarc off the Hobart to point out that an 11Kw generator would easily power that size machine.
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DWell you certainly can have an opinion , flawed or not.
Reply:Originally Posted by G-ManBartI'm offering advice based upon experience with some of the machines he had questions about, that's not an opinion, much less a flawed one.Your point is irrelevant. The OP said he wants a transformer and asked about specific models. He didn't ask for yet another argument about transformer versus inverter. The fact is, he can absolutely buy a transformer welder and run it off a generator, contrary to your "yeah right" comment. BTW, he did post that his generator is a 15Kw unit...more than enough power.
Reply:I agree with the stated assessment of the SA200, I have a great 1966 red face model so I know something about them. They were a purpose built machine for welding and they still do that very weld. Pure DC arc is a beauty to behold thats why they still have a cult following. They have very limited DC auxiliary power, I feel safe running a 4 1/2 Dewalt AC/DC grinder but thats it. If you ever get a chance to weld with one youll see what I mean. Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSteveMiller Dialarc 250 (1990)Miller Maxstar 140 STR (2003)Lincoln SA200 Redface Pipeliner (1966)Lincoln MP210 (2015)Victor and MECO torches
Reply:Originally Posted by M J DActually he mentioned a 15000 watt generator for the house that was a bear to move . |
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发表于 2021-8-31 16:58:56