Irrigation pump installation.

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Well, I have a job installing some irrigation pumps on a creek for a local farmer.  I do a good bit of irrigation work in my business, and this is gonna be rather complicated, and will take me a few days to get it completed.  This will be a dual pump setup running into one pipe....The first two pics is of where the pumps will be installed.These are this pumps that will be used.  I am gonna build as much in the shop as I can.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:More pics will be coming as progress is made.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Looks like a challenging yet fun job Hammack.  Keep the photos coming.  Nice work.For the record, eccentric reducers aren't required on the discharge side.  Suction yes, installed the same way they are on that discharge piping but concentric is OK and fine after the pump.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:duane, for what these do it really doesn't matter which reducers we used.  MOST of the time we use 10ga tubing and thin wall fitings to pipe it with.  Usually we use whatever we can get our hands on at the time.   These systems usually run no more than 100psi so it isn't alot of pressure, and the only requirements I have is no leaks, and make it look neat....I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I hear what you're saying and understand completely.Eccentrics are used on the suction to eliminate the air pocket that would form at the top of the pipe and create potential priming difficulties that a concentric reducer can.  Eccentrics are  typically more expensive too.  I didn't mean for it to sound as if I thought what you've done is wrong, just not required.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:I see solar panels there but I'm pretty sure those won't run the electric motors for what I think are 6" pumps.  Any details on the electrical side of things and are the pumps 6" feeding an 8" pipe??Also I'm wondering if you've got plenty of OFF - looks like that might be a good breeding area for skeeters!!!Nice work, keep the pictures coming!!
Reply:The solar panel actually runs a doppler water meter that is installed by the state.  I am a subcontractor for them installing agricultural water meters also.  The pumps have a 5" flange but will be hooked inot an 8" pipe. Each pump will be able to run on it's on, or both pumps where one is used as a booster pump.  it will make more sense when we get ready to start setting pumps.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55For the record, eccentric reducers aren't required on the discharge side.  Suction yes, installed the same way they are on that discharge piping but concentric is OK and fine after the pump.
Reply:Originally Posted by Stack of Dimes100% yes100% noEccentric reducers on the suction side as Duane said. It matters. 100 psi is plenty of pressure to make a difference, especially on a suction-lift application. Duane is being nice saying he 'understands what you're saying' and 'didn't mean to say you're wrong', but I'm sorry, for the long-term well being of the pump, it's wrong. Suction-lift with a potential air pocket in the suction side due to incorrect reducer will wreak havoc on the impeller due to cavitation. You're also robbing discharge-side pressure.Pipe velocity and friction is the only thing that is lost or gained by mismatching pipe sizes on pumps. NEVER starve suctions, try to match or exceed discharges, depending on pipe velocities or if multiple pump pressures are required.
Reply:Originally Posted by Road WarriorI don't see a problem here, looks like the 5" side will be suction going through the pump to an 8" discharge = high volume low pressure.  I realize there are formulas to figure all this out but in my experience everything so far looks good.From what I've seen of Hammack's posts so far, he does top notch work and he's no stranger to this type of job.
Reply:Originally Posted by Stack of Dimes100% yes100% noEccentric reducers on the suction side as Duane said. It matters. 100 psi is plenty of pressure to make a difference, especially on a suction-lift application. Duane is being nice saying he 'understands what you're saying' and 'didn't mean to say you're wrong', but I'm sorry, for the long-term well being of the pump, it's wrong. Suction-lift with a potential air pocket in the suction side due to incorrect reducer will wreak havoc on the impeller due to cavitation. You're also robbing discharge-side pressure.Pipe velocity and friction is the only thing that is lost or gained by mismatching pipe sizes on pumps. NEVER starve suctions, try to match or exceed discharges, depending on pipe velocities or if multiple pump pressures are required.
Reply:Stack,I appreciate what you're saying (and I'm not just being kind) but I stand by what I said to Hammack in that what he has so far on the discharge isn't wrong just not necessary when it comes to the eccentric increaser (concentric would work too).  As of yesterdays post he didn't have any suction piping fab'd up that I could tell so we can't comment there.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by Stack of DimesUh, no. Doesn't work like that. 5" suction with 8" discharge does not equal high volume low pressure, just means less pipe friction loss in feet of head. The suction side is larger than the dischage on the pump anyway, so that is irrelevant.I'm not discounting the quality of the man's work. Looks good to me, no doubt. Just commenting on the misconceptions in the reasoning behind the reducers and their effects on the system.He does the installs, and probable does them quite well, but for long-term lifespan of pumps this is incorrect. He might not have involvement with the systems after they are installed and running for 5 years or so.
Reply:Originally Posted by Stack of DimesThe suction side is larger than the dischage on the pump anyway, so that is irrelevant.\
Reply:Discharge side I have no issue with, nor would anyone. The reducer on the suction side is the concern. Picture # 2 shows a pipe flange (10"?) into a concentric reducer. This leaves a possible air pocket on the suction side. I do have a few questions:There are 2 pipes on the suction side, are they both open, or are the valved for single operation?The plastic pipe attached to the saddle tap, is it a protection for another pipe or is it an actual pipe on the suction side made of PVC?The pipe connection just above the ground near the yellow block to the far left of the #2 pic: what is that?We want to see something like this in the signature line:Lincoln Ranger 250Miller Auto-Darkening Elite HelmetLincoln 100Lincoln MigMiller Spectrum 375Craftsman 8 galllon gas powered compressorLongevity 200amp Tig Welder LT-200D
Reply:Originally Posted by Road WarriorUh, no, sorry.  The suction side is smaller than the discharge.  Unless these are some type of space age pump that sucks from the side and not the back like every pump I've seen before.  Every pump I've ever dealt with, be it a Sykes, Godwin, Thompson, etc., the water enters the impeller and "impacts" the end of the impeller and impeller shaft.  If I understand you correctly, you are saying the water is coming into the volute from the side, perpindicular to the impeller and impeller shaft.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Reply:Originally Posted by Stack of DimesHUH???The center of the volute flange (pic #3) is clearly larger than the discharge flange???Or am I drunker than I think????And no, not every pump has the flanges arranged like that, but we aren't going to worry about that now.
Reply:Those are 'end suction' pumps with the larger 8" flange (nothing attached) the suction inlet and the smaller 5" flange (with the beginings of a dicharge manifold attached) being the discharge.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by Road WarriorDammit, we've both had too much to drink.  I meant the suction is smaller than the discharge.  Man, I've had a day.  Let's just call it quits tonight and take it up again tomorrow.  Is that acceptable??
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55Those are 'end suction' pumps with the larger 8" flange (nothing attached) the suction inlet and the smaller 5" flange (with the beginings of a dicharge manifold attached) being the discharge.
Reply:Originally Posted by Road Warrioryeah yeah, whatever.  How bout that skeeter pond in the background!!Good night fellas - I've had a rough day!!
Reply:Originally Posted by Stack of DimesDischarge side I have no issue with, nor would anyone. The reducer on the suction side is the concern. Picture # 2 shows a pipe flange (10"?) into a concentric reducer. This leaves a possible air pocket on the suction side. I do have a few questions:There are 2 pipes on the suction side, are they both open, or are the valved for single operation?The plastic pipe attached to the saddle tap, is it a protection for another pipe or is it an actual pipe on the suction side made of PVC?The pipe connection just above the ground near the yellow block to the far left of the #2 pic: what is that?
Reply:A few more pics.  We did get the pumps mounted today.  Maybe these will clear up some confusion on the suction/discharge questions.  I can start fitting pipe Monday.  have a good weekend!I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingThat is what I am saying....  There is NO reducer on the suction side of the pump.  it is an 8" flange and will use an 8" suction as stated above.  There is NO pipe hooked to the suction side as of yet.  The suction of the pump is in the center of the pump.The PVC was used as a conduit if you will for a wire that goes into at saddle tap style doppler flow meter.  It runs over to the solar panel that Roadwarrior asked about earlier.  Just for the record and I think this is where the confusion is.  Where that saddle tap is will be the DISCHARGE NOT SUCTION.  there is 2 miles of 8" underground PVC pipe going to a centerpivot irrigation. The connection you are looking at is what is called a "Z" pipe.  It is basically a steel pipe that 45's down into the ground and then 45's back parallel with the above ground pipe and hooks to an underground PVC.  The pipe that is above ground will be removed and piped into the flange at the yellow block at the 45 degree turn.
Reply:Stack, I see now what you are referring to about what looks like a concentric reducer on the suction pump housing.  That is something that I have not looked at, BUT it is actually an integral part of the pump housing and not an added on reducer.  If the issue is with that then Cornell would have to answer that, but I would assume since they build these pumps everyday they know what they are doing.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingStack, I see now what you are referring to about what looks like a concentric reducer on the suction pump housing.  That is something that I have not looked at, BUT it is actually an integral part of the pump housing and not an added on reducer.  If the issue is with that then Cornell would have to answer that, but I would assume since they build these pumps everyday they know what they are doing.
Reply:no, it is a state mandated flow meter.  it reads the gallons per minute of water being pumped and keeps a total that has been pumped.  The state pulls a total volume once yearly for research data.  it's basically like an odometer in an auto.  There will be a pressure switch installed in the controls that will shut the motor down if the water pressure drops.  There also will be a remote starting system set up on these pumps so that they can be started by a transmitter rather than going all the way back to the creek to start them manually.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Stack,If you re-read my posts you'll see I knew Hammack was working on the discharge side.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Few more pics of the progress.  We didn't get alot of time to take pics today, but we did get started on the pipe work.  Also got the stand that will hold the motor controls in place.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Well that's one way to make a two-stage pump there Hammack.  Looking goodIs that a Norseal butterfly valve?  Who's controllers are being used - Master, ABB, Joslyn-Clark??I think I see where you're going on this from your original description but I'll just wait to see more pics rather than ask a bunch more questions.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:duane, I believe the valves are matco.  They are geared butterfly valves.  I'll get a pic of them tomorrow before putting them in.  I personally have never put in a set up like this, but the irrigation dealer says that it will work.  I hope he is right since the customer will have close to $75,000 in the setup when completed.  This was not the exact way that I would have chosen to do it, but this is how the irrigation dealer recommended it, and due to the cost I went with it so if it doesn't work out they can't blame it on something I changed.  CYA if you will...I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Every time I think of Texas I think of huge dry areas of wasteland.  You guys are like a different country.  Seems you have different climate zones all in one state"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:i couldn't believe it when i was told texans are big into airboating, i still don't believe it.  but i can't believe people in LA aren't into it much. wierd
Reply:Had to move out while the electricians did there job, but here is the completed setup.first for Duane.  This sit the Valves that we use most of the times.  It is a Matco Valve.Then the completed are.I'm not the best fitter in the world, but I finally got it fit where I could live with it. This angle took me quite a while to get like I wanted...I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:A few more of a few welds... Attached ImagesI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:that is a most interesting arrangement. looks like one pump for certain "head" and then you can valve in the second pump to increase the head output if needed or required.very nice welds by the way** for the record you should keep any reducers, elbows, valves a minimum of 5 pipe diameters away from the suction side of a pump. We typically use 10 diameters as a goal unless we are pulling off of  avery close coupled tank or resevoir with a good amount of head.output side you can do whatever you like as long as you can handle the losses.I have a real nice spreadsheet set up to calculate head loss using all the possible fittings. you just enter each fitting and section and it gives you the "load" on th esysteminsert thoughtful quote from someone else2000 Thermal Arc 300GTSW 3.5 hours1946 Monarch 20 x 54 Lathe1998 Supermax 10x54 Mill2004 Haco Atlantic 1/2" Capacity Lasernot mine but i get to play with it
Reply:chenry, I personally really did not like this setup, but it is how the irrigation dealer stated he wanted it to be put in.  So I did exactly as he stated.  I would have spaced the pumps a good bit further apart myself, but we also only had so much room to work in with the other stuff that will be put later.  I asked about the elbows and valve in between the two pumps and was told that the engineer said that it would be fine.  I have no idea.  The dealer approved it so all I had to do was put it in and make sure it didn't leak.This is the first two pump setup of this nature that I have installed.  we normally run a single pump set up only.  This setup is rather new to me.  Dealer, and the farmer both looked at it today and approved it so it is on the dealer now ....I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:That's quite the 'Y' arrangement there. You did great just managing to get that fit up like that. That tight vee on the pump side looks like a killer.
Reply:Thanks for the valve update Hammack.  That gearbox operator looks the same as those on the Norseal valves we use on our 4000 and 6000gpm portable pumps which is why I asked.That discharge tie-in looks like it was a bit fun.  I'd love to be able to someday lay down a bead on pipe (or anything for that matter) like yours.  Very nice.I still have a couple questions regarding the suction that I think I know what the answers will be but I'll just wait to see what transpires assuming you'll be wrapping that up.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:i was not criticizing, hope i did not come across that way.I have seen horrible stuff done in multimillion dollar installations based on "engineers"of course the best was the entire steel mill that crashed and almost burned when they lost main power and diesel gensets (huge by the way) did not kick in for the emergency water and other shutdown emergency systems.30 dollar circuit breakerinsert thoughtful quote from someone else2000 Thermal Arc 300GTSW 3.5 hours1946 Monarch 20 x 54 Lathe1998 Supermax 10x54 Mill2004 Haco Atlantic 1/2" Capacity Lasernot mine but i get to play with it
Reply:Duane, if you look at pic 34 second picture the long pipe running into the water on the right side is the suction pipe.  Almost all irrigation pumps use an aluminum suction pipe, and it hooks to the pump with "twist-lock" quick connect.  The lower end of the pipe has a foot valve on it so that it stays primed.  I am finished with my part, but when the electrician finish and we go back to fire it up I will get some pics of the completed setup.  These pumps will have a radio transmitter that can start them from the irrigation center pivot so you don't have to go all the way to the creek to start them.  The first pump starts, then the second pump kicks on when the line pressure reaches 50 psi.  Yea, that tie in was probably the toughest that I have ever done.   I am not really a pipe guy so it takes me awhile to fit things like that...I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by chenryi was not criticizing, hope i did not come across that way.I have seen horrible stuff done in multimillion dollar installations based on "engineers"of course the best was the entire steel mill that crashed and almost burned when they lost main power and diesel gensets (huge by the way) did not kick in for the emergency water and other shutdown emergency systems.30 dollar circuit breaker