Oh crap, window bars.

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Alright, I did search the subject. For the most part, liability from securing a bedroom window was the most........ "discussed".Well, I built a rack for a guy to raise his air conditioning condensor. I will make a post on that maybe tomorrow.Well he really liked my work. Not just the rack (that was pretty basic) but I built it heavy duty and didn't skimp on materials. I showed up when I said I would. And my price was not cheap, but fair. And he felt he got his monies worth. Now he wants me to do all his welding. He owns a restaurant, convienient store, laundromat and dry cleaners. All but the restaurant is new, and out of state. On the three new buildings he wants cages around the roof top A/C units, 2 each for a total of six.Then he wants window bars over all the windows. Now I will probably take a flaming here, but, they are commercial buildings that no one will sleep in. If I were a window installer and the customer asked me for glass block windows, would I turn down the job? He said, and I will verify, that there are no local codes against them. And his cousins have stores in the same area with barred windows. I did mention the liability issue to him, but in that area, he said it is very common and he wants it done.I would like to hear all feed back. Please don't get rude. I would really like any ideas. I do not live in an area that uses these and I try to stay away from the ones that do. But I guess I am going to have to go and get some ideas."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:As an HVAC guy, may I put out a personal plea? If you build cages around the AC units, make it so the top, front, and sides are hinged. I worked on a unit last week with a cage around it. The guy that built it, didn't pay attention to where the control panels, or system valve ports were. I had to cut the cage off before I could get at it to fix the unit. As far as the bars go, They're pretty common place where I used to live, as long as the windows weren't the kind that could open (like large plate glass windows) there didn't seem to be any issue. Just make sure the fire exits are clear before you cage the windows in.Last edited by Birdwell4; 09-12-2011 at 11:26 PM.
Reply:I am a licensed locksmith since 1987, and have done alot of window bars the best way to make window bars and make money at it is to use square tubing, solid slide into hollow, welded onto flat stock on the ends, secure the bars into the windows with tamper proof screws or spanner screws.Essentially the bars are solid but you have room for adjustment when they slide into each other this was.As for fire regs the way my customers were told to deal with the issue was to go with security film where they were concerned, but breakin problems were usaully in a corner or dark part of yard and not entire home that needed bars.I have not heard of anyone being killed because of lack of egress.
Reply:Birdwell4 - Yep! The buddy that got me in with this customer, is an HVACR guy. HE was asked to raise the condensor, that's where I came in.Pistolnoon - Thanks for the input. Are you telling me I should put square stock (solid) inside a square tube? Wow! Criminals must be more ambitious than I thought. I would have bet that if they seen bars, they would move on to easier pickins. I'm too honest! Would you bu any chance have any pics? And I'm not familiar with tamper proof screws or spanner screws. Are those the ones with the two female dots, for lack of a better term? I was thinking Dyna bolts (sleeve anchor), then just weld the nut to the stud."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:I have always used tamper proof Torx screws but there a lot of different types out thereAnd i have never put solid inside of tubing that would be dumbI don't understand what he is referring tooThough i had one guy who had a problem with people using hack saws on his bars so i put drill rod inside the tubing and that stopped thatBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:Making adjustable bars is wise.   Adjustable bars allows a more generic bar to fit in similarly sized openings.  Also, it also fun to find out that a window opening is not square after you built the bar, or perhaps one small obstruction sticking out that wasn't accounted.   Prefabbed bars are adjustable.  I used to help a guy install bars, he would twist the head off the self tappers.  I haven't made any bars in several yrs.  However,  at that time solid 1/2" bar was cheaper than 1/2" tubing.  If I were doing lots of them, then adjustable they would be.Last edited by tapwelder; 09-13-2011 at 02:37 PM.
Reply:I seem to recall that some of those residential bars had a type of pin and hinge release mechanism that would allow the owner to egress in the event of a fire. But they were designed so that they couldn't be opened from the outside.And yes, I remember some news reports from many years ago where home owers died in fires because their burglar bars gave them no alternative egress point. I believe that's when they started implementing the inside release mechanism.PapaLincoln Idealarc 250 (circa 1962)Lincoln Weldpak 155 w/Mig KitLincoln Squarewave TIG 175
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11I have always used tamper proof Torx screws but there a lot of different types out thereAnd i have never put solid inside of tubing that would be dumbI don't understand what he is referring tooThough i had one guy who had a problem with people using hack saws on his bars so i put drill rod inside the tubing and that stopped that
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11And i have never put solid inside of tubing that would be dumb
Reply:Ok now I'm understanding. You guys must be mounting them inside the window frame. At first I didn't get, being out of square, and 1/8" too short. Like I said, I haven't seen them up close, so I thought you would make it bigger than the window opening and bolt it into the wall. For example, if the window/opening was 24"w X 30"h, I would make the bar rack 28"w X 34"h. I am going to have to look at some of these. Thanks for the input, keep it coming."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:Stickman,Take a look at King Metals.  I just finished a decorative security project for a restaurant that did not want a prison look.   They have locking mechanisms that are "safety" friendly.  Also have  a lot of product that will make your build much quicker, cheaper and easier.check it:http://www.kingmetals.com/default.as...&itemcode=32-1I did not use these.  I fabbed up some sliding bolts at top and bottom that could be locked with a padlock or secured by a bolt through the two pieces or by some "other" manner. The bars were mounted on the inside at customer request.  So the sliding bolts were facing the inside for inside access.  The other side has barrel hinges that cannot be lifted up.   This leaves the locking in the owner's hands and gives him options.  If you are interested, I'll get some pictures up tomorrow.  Keep in mind nothing is impenetrable.  The idea is to discourage the thief to convince him hit the next easiest place down the street. If it takes longer than throwing a brick and dashing in, chances are they won't bother.btw, if you measure twice and cut once, you won't need to make adjustable windows, which cost more time and money to make, and don't look as secure if you have a telescoping joint.  One code that is important...the spacing between the bars.  I bet there is a minimum of 4 inches for child safety if they are at a certain height.Last edited by lugweld; 09-13-2011 at 06:57 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:First if you want more info on legalities you may want to find out what code and or documents the local building official references. Fire codes will likely reference NFPA 101 life safety code. In a "Restaurant" it will likely be labeled or classified a public assembly which will require door openings to be a certain size and swing out in most cases. Now the codes become stricter as the occupancy goes up. Generally 1 door when under 50 and no more than 75 feet to the door from anywhere.But a good rule of thumb is 2 doors that are legal exits seperate and remote from one another. That means if 1 is blocked or cut off by fire or other problem the other 1 is far enough away that it can be used without being directly affected. I don't believe most restaurants are required to have windows and if they do, seldom do they meet the requirements of a "legal exit" so barring them off really is no big deal from a legal standpoint. Now the moral standpoint or guilt if you will, In the event of an emergency or fire, if someone were cut off and could only get to a window that was barred, can you or the owner live with the fact that they lost their life due to the fact that there only way out had been barred. bedrooms on homes must have a swing free feature, security bars like this should have on at least some if not all. But I don't believe you could be prosecuted if the building had the proper legal exiting in place(doors).This is from my experience. It is possible your particular municipality may have and ordinance that specifically prohibits them so check. Fire and building codes are a (minimum) standard and are common in many regions, but and individual municipality may require measures above and beyond normally accepted codes if that municipality has legally adopted such measures or standards."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:If this is directed at me...There is no moral issue here. The units use a sliding bolt that can be easily opened, and the bars can be swung wide open. The locks are used at night for security. The owner lives upstairs and just experienced a break in at 2 am.  This is in an old historic section of town with brick streets.  There are other exits to the side, and rear that are kept open during business.   There are "Other" windows that are not behind bars, as they are in a reverse "bay"  entry area which are protected by a gate which is open during hours.  There are no restrictions either...but I did make sure they were not fixed and would open quickly and easily if needed.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Manual, single action openers on any doors that are ADA requirements. Egress from windows that open must be single action mechanical to meet fire code. Fixed windows would need breaking to access, and as such the firemen will be using a cuts-all rotary saw or chainsaw and metal bars will simply go away. The issue is dedicated exits. Use pushbars or single action locks which meet ADA requirements; or as here in Ca.meets Title 24 requirements.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:IMO bars on the outside of windows just convince the thieves that there's something worth stealing inside. Bars (and most other things) on the outside of a window are a waste of time because the theives have all the time they like to deal with them, if they don't cut them, then they just jack them apart or find some other, sometimes quite inventive, way of getting past them. If the guy's serious about his security then he would be much better off putting the bars, or better yet shutters of some description (I'd personally go for the concertina type ones) behind the windows, at least then they would have the alarm going off whilst they try to gain entry, instead of when they are already inside and it's too late.
Reply:Kolot - It's hard to answer that question about living with guilt. While I really don't like seeing or hearing about ANY tragedies, I will say again, what if I was a window installer and was asked to install glass block windows? I think it would be easier for the firemen to get through bars than glass block. So, I guess I am making it "safer". Not trying to be a smart guy at all, but I can't turn down work because of "what ifs".Baila La Pinza - The old saying, if they REALLY want it, they're gonna get it. I don't know what other kind of security he will have. He just asked me to do this job. Also, it will be a convienient store, laundromat and dry cleaners. It will be clearly marked so they will all know what's inside. And he said all the buildings in the area have them, so it won't look out of the ordinary."Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:Don't think I came across the right way, didn't mean to imply anyone should feel guilty, but there are some out there who would absolutely be devistated if the worst happened. For me, I would go ahead and put the bars on. You also have to weigh security against egress. Egress is also ingress. There are some neighborhoods where the bars are a must, just the way of the world we live in. Once again, not targeting anyone with guilt trip, didn't mean it that way."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Lugweld , thanks for the link to King Metals, I use them but did not know they had the mechanism for quick release guards, and the price is very reasonable."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400