Multifunction welder arc,tig,plasma

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Ok, This is for guys who have actually used these machines. If you don't own one, or have never used one personally please refrain from commenting.I want to know if they live up to what is advertised. what unexpected costs come along with these units, and how easy it is to change between the different functions. Are they worth the money?Please indicate the Brand, Model, and basic limits/requirements of the machine please.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Im not sure if this is what you want or not, so here goes, if it isnt, Im sorry to take up space....here goes;        At work I have a Miller Shopmaster 300 (think thats the name) with a Miller wire feeder and Miller spool gun. The power source itself can be used as an arc welder, works good, the spool gun seems to be ok, but the wire feeder is less than great....very un happy with it.....not smooth at all, very disappointing. I had an Airco at the last shop I was in, mig, with spool gun, no arc, worked fantastic..... I have a small Lincoln mig, works great, smooth as silk.... Before anyone mentions it, I did try new liners, tips etc etc......still not smooth at all......turned me off of Miller all together......
Reply:At school we have about 10-15 Lincoln Mp 350's( multi-process machines, smaw,fcaw,gmaw,gtaw)  but they don't have a plasma available( that I know of). These machines are great for saving space, digital voltage/amps and wire speed, and also have pre/post flow and other setting for gtaw. This machine also has different pre-programed settings for smaw( 6010 or fcaw/dual shield). These machines can also be updated with new programs/or be scanned like a automotive computer for problems. I'm not sure if I answered your questions or not but.....Lincoln pro mig 180Lincoln Square Wave Tig 300/wp 20/home built water cooler Victor, Purox, Harris, O/A welding/cutting setupsVintage Craftsman drill pressVintage Craftsman/Atlas 12"x 36'' lathe7''x 12'' w/c band saw Everlast 140 st
Reply:So what you really want is answers from shills about how great and wonderful these machines are, or comments from people who have no clue what they are doing that bought one, and probably haven't used it much...Information from those who know better than to waste their money on these machines is irrelevant to you.Hopefully you'll get a bunch of people who got burned by these machines to reply to this. That is, if they didn't sell out in order to get their money back...If you want a good stick / mig / DC tig, go with an XMT 304..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Hey Thors,The other fellows indicated some of the "multi-function" units they have used or experience with, although I don't believe that is what you are querying. The units you are referring are the Chinese imports that have stick/TIG/plasma functions all in one unit. There are a couple others that maybe made in Europe that have a plasma interfaced into the unit.The problems with the Chinese units are component failures that render the entire unit useless because of the circuit board integration. There are a multitude of threads of the failures & complaints & it appears to be an ongoing issue, even today. I can only provide experience as to what I have that has worked without issue as far as a couple imports I have & use daily. I have a 200A TIG/SMAW AC/DC that is full-function & used daily in the winter months for the alum. crafts I make. It does not have the plasma feature as my initial homework indicated a high failure rate with these. I bought an individual plasma unit, an import of the same mfg. as my import TIG & 250A Spoolgun MIG. It totally failed on the 5th usage with total internal flaming & circuit board destruction. I was fortunate to get it replaced after a 3 month battle & threats to file a formal criminal complaint to the state attorney general for fraud. When the replacement came, I didn't even open it.....listed it on C/L & sold it for more than I paid for it within 8hrs of listing it. I was lucky. That company is now defunct.The original TIG & s/g MIG are still going strong after 6yrs, so no complaints there as they have both exceeded my expectations & have made me over 10K each, & if they die, I'll trash them as they definitely paid themselves off many times over. I was lucky with the first two as the company was quite reliable & all the machines were pre-tested prior to shipment & very well packed. When the import owner passed away a couple years later, it all went to hell & they finally went bust.Do some very extensive homework prior to purchasing anything. Look at feedback, satisfaction ratings, recommendations, & issues that may be prevalent so as to save yourself headaches & $$$$$$. Some of the imports have improved, although the multi-function units w/plasma still seem to be full of bugs. If cost is an issue, get the AC/DC TIG/stick unit & a separate plasma unit & MIG if needed. Look for clean, used name-brand units that are on C/L or E-bay first to, hopefully, get a bargain. There are many threads here where some of the fellows got some superb buys of great used Miller/Lincoln/Esab/TD/Hypertherm equipment. Do your homework........DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:it's not the miller board so he's free to ask.   i have an xmt,  two actually;  i would not call them multifunction per se.   i have 2 hundred feet of 1/0cable dedicated to one with stinger and ground;   a carbon arc setup,  about two hundred bucks not including the air compressor.  i have a 30a spool gun with a wc 24 interface for welding aluminum.   i have an 8rc and i had a 12 vs (sold it)  with 25 and 75 foot extension cords.  hf box, cooler, a few tig torches both air and water, sliders, rockers and foot pedal.  don't forget the HF box. but the xmt itself does nothing,  it is a big purchase but that ise  only the beginning.  it is capable of multifunction but is not a multifunction out of the box like the OP is talking about.   maybe miller could address that,  you can bet your axx they are watching developments of this tech closely.  regrettably for miller and lincoln things are going to be changing pretty quickly.  i am sure that the execs at itw are working on contingency plans right now to stem the bleeding that has begun.   maybe too little to  late.for the record i just  sold a dynasty sd,  and bought one of their units.  a 250 ex and pocketed a nice amount of money.   did not have to lay ten cents for any accessories.please don't tell a guy my age about a twenty year horizon, that's a joke.  these things will be like laptops in a few years.years ago i owned a 74 FXE.  shovel head.  total piece of crap.   the best thing that ever happened to the consumer of harley davidson products was the honda import.   it sure set them straight.  they had to beg for mercy and i believe nixon had a hand in putting a heavy tariff on all bikes over 750 cc"s.   it isn't always bad.let's not even visit the automakers and their unions.  their vision was so bad i don't even know how the aimed the gun to shoot themselves in the foot.just saw the newer post and i agree about one thing,  unless a multifunction machine is going to be something you feel you must have, you will be a lot safer (particularly if you are a mobile operator) with single function machines.  also, redundancy is a very good thing in this business.for the most part the multifunction buyers seem to be hobbyists,Last edited by fdcmiami; 10-27-2011 at 08:55 PM.Reason: add info
Reply:you already have a 210 handler, think i would go with separate units if i were you.. i have a lincoln 180c, thermal arc 185(ac/dc tig)  and longevity 40i plasma..they all work great..   i didnt want all my eggs in one basket.  if my mig breaks, i can tig, if tig breaks i can mig unless its aluminum, but then i could get a spoolgun if i had to...  if plasma breaks i'll have to break out the 4 1/2" cutoff disks or sawsall or other means but i can still weld and cut either way... i use my horizontal bandsaw about 1000 times more than my plasma.. that will change though.Last edited by brucer; 10-28-2011 at 01:24 AM.tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:My concern is space. I'm not mobile, and I've got a very small shop 12'x16'. I don't have room for a lot of large units. and I've got to be able to move them outside (or pull leads). 95% of my work will be done with my mig. Having anything more is for two things 1. to keep my stick up to par, and 2. learn tig. Having the plasma as well would just be icing on the cake. I know plasma units a relatively small so having that isn't necessarily. DSW,What I don't want is exactly what you did. Without actually trying the machine you don't know what it's actually capable of doing. You assume that because it's not a brand name, or made in the USA that it has no business 1 in your shop, and 2, being talked about. But I have to disagree with you. It's using new technology that brings innovation and further improvement. Where as I don't think we have lost our innovative spirit, I do think that we've lost our edge. and without making the a political rant. I'm going to move on.You assume that only an idiot would even consider buying something like a multifunction welding unit. to me it's the smartest thing to find something that can do more functions that just one. It saves money and space. Now, I'm not going to spend my money on something that doesn't do what it says it will. that's why I asked for people who have actually used them. I don't assume something doesn't work if I haven't used it. I ask people who have. I'm not to prideful to say that I don't know everything, and that my opinion isn't the end all and be all of a subject. I don't say someone is stupid for considering something, or for using a certain product.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:i just dont like the idea of a plasma and tig welder together in one unit.  i feel a good tig machine is complicated enough.. i would do a mig/dc-tig in a single unit though..tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:You missed the point. Pm sent..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I actually own one,.  It was the first real tig welder I ever bought.  If I had it to do again, I would buy seperate machines.  I didnt know then what I know now.  I'm not saying the machine doesnt work or that there is anything wrong with it.  It works fine.  But I keep the plasma use to an absolute minimum.  Like, I use it maybe once a year.  If there is any other option for cutting, including one that takes more time I will take that option over the plasma.  Under these conditions it has permormed beautifully as a tig welder for three years.  If you take a look at the insides of an inverter based plasma (there are some pics here on this board), and also at the innards of an inverter based ac/dc tig, you will see there is no way in hell both machines could fit into the same small enclosure.  This means components have to piggy back and there are distinct differences between the OCVs required by tig and plasma.  I'm not an EE, but using the plasma (for me) on this machine is kind of like holding a hand grenade.  If you insist on having one, I would at least go with one of the DC only models.  Having a plasma in a tig welder is kind of a fad that is marketed toward the hobbyist or occaisional user.  They call them multi purpose, but this is a misnomer.  MAchines like the XMT and other cc/cv units are the true multi purpose units.  At the risk of having someone call me a shill (because that would really piss me off) I'm not going to cislose the name of the unit, if you want to know pm me.
Reply:I think the greatest argument for the Multi is the space savings, But Multi is not a feature unique to the welding industry. Problem is a lot of times Multi's are good all around but individual units are great as their circuitry is specific for there process. I have quite a few machines in my garage and they take up space but I have used stacking and racks to compensate. I have seen quite a few very nicely built carts that put a lot of equipment into a limited space. Can't go out , can you go up? I have put my air compressor in the rafters of my garage in the past. Stick welder with any good length of leads doesn't have to be mobile, mount it higher up the wall or rack it and put something under it. Got a window you don't particularly need, frame it out like a bay window box and use the space for storage, better security anyway. As far as the imports I have used them, not owned, but used them enough and bailed out enough of my friends who's imports have shOt the bed to know they ARE inferior. Look at the success rates here as opposed to the failure rates.  Now some guys just gotta save that 2 or 3 hundred dollars. Wait and save that couple hundred and you will not regret purchasing a top name product that has parts support quickly. I use a 1980's syncrowave, it's as big as a house but I paid 900 for it and it will bury any of the imports in question.  Then there is the whole american thing. There are so many things in commerce today that are cheap shOt and we can't avoid them, Why not help out the team(American Worker) when we have the option."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Originally Posted by fdcmiamiit's not the miller board so he's free to ask.   i have an xmt,  two actually;  i would not call them multifunction per se.   i have 2 hundred feet of 1/0cable dedicated to one with stinger and ground;   a carbon arc setup,  about two hundred bucks not including the air compressor.  i have a 30a spool gun with a wc 24 interface for welding aluminum.   i have an 8rc and i had a 12 vs (sold it)  with 25 and 75 foot extension cords.  hf box, cooler, a few tig torches both air and water, sliders, rockers and foot pedal.  don't forget the HF box. but the xmt itself does nothing,  it is a big purchase but that ise  only the beginning.  it is capable of multifunction but is not a multifunction out of the box like the OP is talking about.   maybe miller could address that,  you can bet your axx they are watching developments of this tech closely.  regrettably for miller and lincoln things are going to be changing pretty quickly.  i am sure that the execs at itw are working on contingency plans right now to stem the bleeding that has begun.   maybe too little to  late.for the record i just  sold a dynasty sd,  and bought one of their units.  a 250 ex and pocketed a nice amount of money.   did not have to lay ten cents for any accessories.please don't tell a guy my age about a twenty year horizon, that's a joke.  these things will be like laptops in a few years.years ago i owned a 74 FXE.  shovel head.  total piece of crap.   the best thing that ever happened to the consumer of harley davidson products was the honda import.   it sure set them straight.  they had to beg for mercy and i believe nixon had a hand in putting a heavy tariff on all bikes over 750 cc"s.   it isn't always bad.let's not even visit the automakers and their unions.  their vision was so bad i don't even know how the aimed the gun to shoot themselves in the foot.just saw the newer post and i agree about one thing,  unless a multifunction machine is going to be something you feel you must have, you will be a lot safer (particularly if you are a mobile operator) with single function machines.  also, redundancy is a very good thing in this business.for the most part the multifunction buyers seem to be hobbyists,
Reply:Personally, I've never been a big fan of "multifunction" anything.Kinda like the term "motorsailer" as a yacht.  What that means to me is it doesn't sail very well and gives up creature comfort to a motoryacht.With the equipment available today (Diversion, Maxstar, Dynasty, Hypertherm PM30/45, etc, etc) the idea of "space savings" is pure BS.  Might as well be honest and just say you're looking for a "cheap solution" and quality is not important to you.  If you can't find "space" for these machines, you probably don't have the space to be welding.Really tired of hearing the BS "I'm just a hobby welder so I don't need quality tools".  What that says to me is you don't have pride in workmanship.  I've never been a "professional woodworker" but I buy the best woodworking tools I can afford.  Buying quality tools such as a Delta unisaw, Delta planer, Makita power tools, Lie-Nielsen planes/chisels, Incra, etc, etc. adds to my enjoyment of using the tools.  That way I know the limiting factor is "my skill" not the tool in my hand.  If you can't tell the difference between using a LN plane and a "hardware store import", then you arn't serious about your "hobby".I'm not saying the Chinese can't build "quality equipment".  They can copy (reverse engineer/steal) the design of the best machines available.  That, however is not what's going on with the welding equipment.  They're going after the bottomfeeders who don't wish to spend the money on quality equipment with the latest technology and a support organization behind them.I don't have to own the junk to have observed over the last several years the shady "business practices", the inflated claims, the advertising lies, the poor customer relations, etc, etc.  It ticks me off that their "target audience" is precisely the new, uninformed, wanna be welders, who don't know any difference.It's your money.  You can buy whatever crap you want.  Just understand that there's a reason why quality costs money and you get what you pay for.  Actually, the welding machines we have today produced by established companies (Miller, Lincoln, Hobart, etc) represent an excellent value for what you get.  I look at my tools (welding equipment included) as a long term investment not as a disposable expense.Last edited by SundownIII; 10-28-2011 at 01:14 PM.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by WrenchtamerI actually own one,.  It was the first real tig welder I ever bought.  If I had it to do again, I would buy seperate machines.  I didnt know then what I know now.  I'm not saying the machine doesnt work or that there is anything wrong with it.  It works fine.  But I keep the plasma use to an absolute minimum.  Like, I use it maybe once a year.  If there is any other option for cutting, including one that takes more time I will take that option over the plasma.  Under these conditions it has permormed beautifully as a tig welder for three years.  If you take a look at the insides of an inverter based plasma (there are some pics here on this board), and also at the innards of an inverter based ac/dc tig, you will see there is no way in hell both machines could fit into the same small enclosure.  This means components have to piggy back and there are distinct differences between the OCVs required by tig and plasma.  I'm not an EE, but using the plasma (for me) on this machine is kind of like holding a hand grenade.  If you insist on having one, I would at least go with one of the DC only models.  Having a plasma in a tig welder is kind of a fad that is marketed toward the hobbyist or occaisional user.  They call them multi purpose, but this is a misnomer.  MAchines like the XMT and other cc/cv units are the true multi purpose units.  At the risk of having someone call me a shill (because that would really piss me off) I'm not going to cislose the name of the unit, if you want to know pm me.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIPersonally, I've never been a big fan of "multifunction" anything.Kinda like the term "motorsailer" as a yacht.  What that means to me is it doesn't sail very well and gives up creature comfort to a motoryacht.With the equipment available today (Diversion, Maxstar, Dynasty, Hypertherm PM30/45, etc, etc) the idea of "space savings" is pure BS.  Might as well be honest and just say you're looking for a "cheap solution" and quality is not important to you.  If you can't find "space" for these machines, you probably don't have the space to be welding.Really tired of hearing the BS "I'm just a hobby welder so I don't need quality tools".  What that says to me is you don't have pride in workmanship.  I've never been a "professional woodworker" but I buy the best woodworking tools I can afford.  Buying quality tools such as a Delta unisaw, Delta planer, Makita power tools, Lie-Nielsen planes/chisels, Incra, etc, etc. adds to my enjoyment of using the tools.  That way I know the limiting factor is "my skill" not the tool in my hand.  If you can't tell the difference between using a LN plane and a "hardware store import", then you arn't serious about your "hobby".I'm not saying the Chinese can't build "quality equipment".  They can copy (reverse engineer/steal) the design of the best machines available.  That, however is not what's going on with the welding equipment.  They're going after the bottomfeeders who don't wish to spend the money on quality equipment with the latest technology and a support organization behind them.I don't have to own the junk to have observed over the last several years the shady "business practices", the inflated claims, the advertising lies, the poor customer relations, etc, etc.  It ticks me off that their "target audience" is precisely the new, uninformed, wanna be welders, who don't know any difference.It's your money.  You can buy whatever crap you want.  Just understand that there's a reason why quality costs money and you get what you pay for.  Actually, the welding machines we have today produced by established companies (Miller, Lincoln, Hobart, etc) represent an excellent value for what you get.  I look at my tools (welding equipment included) as a long term investment not as a disposable expense.
Reply:One of the issues that plagues the design teams that build combination plasma / tig machines is that the output characteristics (voltage amperage curves) as well as the starting and ending requirements for plasma arcs and tig welding arcs are considerably different. The currently available systems that can do both Plasma and Tig will definitely have compromised performance (as compared to a good quality single process unit) in one process or perhaps both. A balancing act in the size of the power supply inductors (yes, inverters use inductors and transformers...they are just smaller than common "transformer" power supplies as the operating frequency is higher) as well as the microprocessor controlled output waveforms and up ramp and down ramps of current as well as gas flow requrements....which to get the highest levels of welding and cutting performance must be different.Technology will someday solve these issues...but it has not yet occurred!Jim Colt   Hypertherm
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWIf you want a good stick / mig / DC tig, go with an XMT 304.
Reply:So are the Lincoln C300 and the Thermal Arc 320SP, but I think all 3 are way above the OP's budget!JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:Where did you come up with the automakers and the unions ? Stick to the topic. These multifunction chinese machines are sh!t any way you look at itmy interest is not in the units that are being sold so much as the reaction of the companies and their employees that stand to lose at the hands of the competition.   i used the auto makers and their unions as an example of poor vision.   this is probably not a good example since most on this board were not around in the 70's.  my father owned a used car business and 150 rental cars, nearly all gm or ford.   junk,  we were running torinos with 22k on them through the auction for 1500 dollars.  mirrors fell off, finish was terrible, they broke down.   the uaw was on strike, it seemed, nearly every week.   in rolls toyota and guys like you saying that japanese stuff is shxt.   in the seventies you could drive down a street and almost all the cars would be american made.   the unions screwed themselves.   in fact they brought the mfgs to their knees, till they came begging the america taxpayer for money.  i wouldn't have given it to them.  chrysler, orphaned by our government is sold to fiat; well the italians must have done something right because chrysler just delivered a great quarter..america cars today are top notch,  still expensive but i'd say equal to the imports in all other areas but it would not have been that way if the japs had not come along.  we'd probably not need gas since we would be pushing our union made cars.regarding these inverters coming in it's going to be the same thing.    this tech is no different than desk top pc's when they came in.   in fact, i am lookin at this 250 ex, which i'm going to boot up tomorrow and it looks like a desk top.  i predict in a few years they will be making these thing for half the price today.   it won't  matter who you buy because there will be third generation mfg's putting out parts and boards for them.   they will become generic.   i like miller, every time i call appleton they are always very nice and helpful.   i have owned a lot of their equipment over the years but have always felt to be at their mercy when it came to parts and pricing.   well, no more.  it's over.   what is unfortunate is that miller will have no say in what takes place;  they are an arm of itw.they could disappear if, in the eyes of itw, it became a fiscally sound decision.   leco, the same thing;  they are burger king to mcdonalds and will suffer more and faster;  and there is not one thing that can be done about it.25 years ago all my power tools were redthen they were yellowtoday they are mostly blue.  (makita)do i feel bad for milwaukee, no.  their tools did not get better.  i remember writing and complaining that every time i wanted to change a grinding disc in the field i had to look for one of their special wrenches to do it.  then along came dewalt and i could use my adjustable.  bye bye milwaukee.   now i own 1 sawzall, and a mag drill made by milwaukee.and they don't learn,  my makita drills use lithium ion batts and are positive workhorses.one day, about a year ago, in a pinch i bought an 18 volt milw. lithium ion drill.  it  weighs about 3 pounds more than my makita, and the lith/ion batts are lousy, they don't hold a charge.   think i'll put it out on craigslist after i finish this post.  i apologize for typos.
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerDon't assume that I don't have pride in my work. Or that I don't have the money to put into welding, or for that mater that I don't have the space to weld. welding space is easy to come by, it's secure storage that's expensive. and personally, I'd rather work outside than under a roof if I can avoid it. I took a simple question (are these worth the hype?) and turned it into something more complicated. Space for tools is important. there is not point in having a tool if you don't have the ability to get to it to use it. when it comes down to it, space not cost play a bigger factor in it for me. simple as that.
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerOk, This is for guys who have actually used these machines. If you don't own one, or have never used one personally please refrain from commenting.I want to know if they live up to what is advertised. what unexpected costs come along with these units, and how easy it is to change between the different functions. Are they worth the money?Please indicate the Brand, Model, and basic limits/requirements of the machine please.
Reply:As I was just saying...“thou shall never speak about foreign products except in derogatory terms"__________________________________________________  _I could not care less where anything is made. I don't fall for the myth that locally made is 'better'. If I think something is good value for ME, I'll buy it. That said, I do like European quality
Reply:Not all foreign-made machines are talked about derisively- ESAB, Fronius, Kemppi, all well-respected, high-quality machines, and all out of reach financially for most non-professionals.Even the Chinese machines that folks are ranting about are no worse than the cheap buzz-boxes advertized in the back of Popular Mechanics, etc. in days of yore.I think fdcmiami has it about right with his analogy with Japanese cars in the '70s. The Chinese machines will improve, and will pose a threat to US manufacturers, and will enter the mainstream... and get more expensive themselves.I own Lincoln, Miller, Hypertherm, etc. because I do this stuff for a living. Paying those prices doesn't make sense to hobbyists and casual users, though, and I can't see looking down on them for wanting a bargain.I agree with many folks here that good used name-brand machines are a better value than new Chinese, but that won't be the case forever. Older machines are bigger, heavier, and more power-hungry than newer inverters, and the modern features of these machines are tempting, even if most will not see any real benefit from them.Change is inevitable... and it's happening.JohnA few weldersA lot of hammersA whole lot of C-clamps
Reply:Originally Posted by LlundbergAs I was just saying...“thou shall never speak about foreign products except in derogatory terms"Originally Posted by tnjindSow me  a QUALITY Chinese made welding machine, please.
Reply:Originally Posted by Silicon-basedNot all foreign-made machines are talked about derisively- ESAB, Fronius, Kemppi, all well-respected, high-quality machines, and all out of reach financially for most non-professionals.Even the Chinese machines that folks are ranting about are no worse than the cheap buzz-boxes advertized in the back of Popular Mechanics, etc. in days of yore.I think fdcmiami has it about right with his analogy with Japanese cars in the '70s. The Chinese machines will improve, and will pose a threat to US manufacturers, and will enter the mainstream... and get more expensive themselves.I own Lincoln, Miller, Hypertherm, etc. because I do this stuff for a living. Paying those prices doesn't make sense to hobbyists and casual users, though, and I can't see looking down on them for wanting a bargain.I agree with many folks here that good used name-brand machines are a better value than new Chinese, but that won't be the case forever. Older machines are bigger, heavier, and more power-hungry than newer inverters, and the modern features of these machines are tempting, even if most will not see any real benefit from them.Change is inevitable... and it's happening.John
Reply:Originally Posted by tnjindSow me  a QUALITY Chinese made welding machine, please.
Reply:Originally Posted by LlundbergI am one of those and I can categorically state that if it were not for reasonably priced chinese machines, I would not own a welder.
Reply:Originally Posted by bruceryou ever hear of Thermal Arc? mines about 6yrs old now.  bam!
Reply:Originally Posted by LlundbergI can only speak for me but I am guessing that anyone who is using a machine that delivers what it promises is quality. Regardless where it happens to be made.I am one of those and I can categorically state that if it were not for reasonably priced chinese machines, I would not own a welder.I suspect there are lots of others like me. But as we all know, nothing made in China could possibly be any good, lets just ignore those millions of machines people are using everyday.
Reply:Originally Posted by tnjindSo Thermal Arc is Chinese made?
Reply:Brucer,My TA185 is made in Japan.
Reply:Mine is also made in Japan.  Its 2-3 years old now.
Reply:I have always thought of them as quality machines, good deal.Tim Beeker.
Reply:Originally Posted by tnjindI asked a very simple question in a polite way. I was not bashing, but yet you seem defensive, hmm.........
Reply:My Powcon is made in the USA.  Still some of the best, longest running Inverter based welders made.  the current version of the Powcon ishttp://www.arconweld.com/store.asp?p...94&catid=20034  From my understanding it was started by the guys who invented the Powcon after the company was sold to Miller.   They probably had some non-competition agreement for some length of time and had to change so features, language etc...Last edited by soutthpaw; 10-30-2011 at 01:59 AM.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:Llundburg,You seem to have missed the point entirely.First off, you're in Australia and you access to "used quality equipment" is vastly different than it is here in the USA.  Even the retail price for new equipment is vastly different since, for you, it's all imported, and your government wants a piece of the action.Comparing Toyota to the cheap imported Chinese welders shows that people don't have much common sense.  When Toyota came into the US market they had a large established base in Japan.  They had their own designs and patents.  They set up a "dealer network" that could stand behind their product and provided for replacement parts.  As they "built their name" they established manufacturing plants in this country to better serve their customers.  Over time, they proved that US (non-union) workers could produce some of the finest (best value) automobiles of any place in the world.  They basically broke UAW's back.  Now, several other, foreign based manufacturers have followed suit.  It never was about Detroit not being able to produce quality/affordable automobiles.  They just couldn't do it with the unions having their ba11s in a vice.To compare Toyota's "business plan" to what's occuring with the cheap, imported, Chinese junk welders is pure BS.  In fact, if you look at the way they've chosen to do business, it would be a book of "how not to do business".  They started (and I'm primarily referring to the two Names that advertise here) by importing a lot of junk that had an extremely high failure rate.  They had/have no service to back them up.  They don't repair faulty equipment, they replace it with similar junk.  They don't design anything.  They go to the cheapest source they can find in China and plunk down the cash and buy a boatload of "welders/multifunction machines".  They have no engineers/quality control personnel on staff.  What they have is a bunch of smooth talking "snake oil salesmen".You must be new to the forums if you missed the "pissing contests" that went on between the two companies.  Not a week went by that we wern't told a bigger lie than the week before.  The advertising read like "We're just as good as Miller, Lincoln, etc, have more features, and we cost half as much, etc etc".  Pure, unadulterated BULL SH1T.  Negative posts were deleted.  Positive posts were paid for with free consumables.  The BS just went on and on.  It came very close to destroying this board.  Now we've got a new bunch of "newbies" that don't know crap about welding, singing the praises for this imported junk.  Just a tip there newbies.  Zebra's don't change their stripes.To compare Toyota to what's happening with the Chinese Junk Invasion just shows how stupid some posters are.  If you think that renting a warehouse/distribution center and going to China and getting a "low bid" on a bunch of welders that can be sold for a huge profit to unsuspecting newbie's resembles what Toyota did, then you've got another thought coming.Where's the capital investment for these "importers"?   Where's the service/support?  How many patents do they hold?  How many welding engineers/QC personnel do they have on staff?  What "investment" do they have in the marketplace to insure that they're going to be around to stand behind their warranties?  I'm not talking about "lip service".  I'm talking about real world facts.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:from a history of toyota."The Corolla, to be America’s favorite small car, was first imported in 1969, two years after its first Japanese production, followed by small pickups that earned a strong reputation for reliability and durability. It was the first Toyota built in the United States, starting in 1985, at the New United Motor Manufacturing (NUMMI) facility in Fremont, California — a joint venture with General Motors."the history for subaru, datsun, suzuki etc not much different.   they were here for 20 years strictly as imports.  still remember the deal in fremont, i was living in so cal at the time.   wonder how gm mgmt looks back on that day?still and all we are talking about welders not cars., the future in welding is inverters and i stand by my prediction that they will become cheaper and better in the coming years as the  tech improves and more company's get involved.  it would not surprise me if an app for  a diagnostic check of your welder is available for your smart phone. there is no need for these units to ever  be made here.   they will end up being the equivalent of a pc;  seriously how many know if your hard drive is maxtor, western digital, seagate or quantum?  when they came into the country you could hear the same comments from guys that fought the japanese in the second world war.  and justifiably so.   plenty of hate for asians out there still.in the end, america's two big companies will pay a price,  it is inevitable.  i enjoy the posts from people who live in other parts of the world where these mfgs are just other brands.  it puts things in perspective.
Reply:many times i stood in the C line at the concord auto auction and heard guys talking about the jap junk going through."By 1967, Toyota had become well established in the United States, albeit as a niche player. The Corona four-door sedan was seen as competing mainly against the Volkswagen Beetle, though this was hardly fair to the modern Corona, with its relatively large interior space and relatively comfortable ride. The Corona was known from its early days for quality as well as a low price, though rust was a serious problem until the late 1970s, causing more than one Corona to simply rust in half before it became old enough to have mechanical problems. "
Reply:here is a very, and i mean very plausible scenario.the market cap for itw is 26 billion (market cap is the share price times the total number of shares available for sale) at the close of fridays trading. that is the sum that someone could step in and theoretically purchase the entire company for.  (plus a percentage premium)   miller is integral to itw and it would be hard to get them to break out the numbers for the company sales.   maybe they do but i don't feel like reading their 10 q.  either way i am of the opinion that they, itw, would not want to bust out that part of the company.  not now anyway.but,  and this is a very realistic scenario.  a chinese corporation could step in and buy leco (manufacturer of lincoln)  for 3.1 billion dollars.  that is a paltry sum in the corporate merger and acquisition world.  compare it, leco, to apples 375 billion dollar market cap.    if they did that they would have a very sophisticated distribution network and a place to move their chinese product.  they might even rebadge the lincoln line.  after all,  with only two big co's in the us where are the buyers going to go.  to miller?  or to the less expensive item.   this play seems natural to me.  just don't know if it would clear the DOJ though i don't see why not.
Reply:its kind of the same scenario as cell phones, computers, televisions and appliances... you could compare the situation with Whirlpool,GE,RCA, Maytag appliances and such...  back in the 70's, 80's early 90's you bought Whirlpool,GE,RCA,Maytag appliances, now you cant trust them and who knows where they're made at now.  i still like Maytag though.. motorcycles? they said honda,kawasaki,yamaha were junk and wouldnt ever do anything in the U.S., look at them now and they just keep getting better and better. I hope Miller and Lincoln stay solid, but Lincoln already sources welders to mexico and italy, and i know miller has a big facility in hong kong and many others around the world, so i would almost bet its just a matter of time...  I would almosr bet the miller boards are made overseas and then welders assembled in the US anyway.. and i know the components are foreign made.. sure lincoln and miller are high quality, you get what you pay for, thats why i bought the thermal arc 185, i saved about $1500 and have a welder thats just as good.  Is miller union?Last edited by brucer; 10-30-2011 at 07:27 PM.tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:Sorry, but Maytag is out in my books.  Never had so much trouble with a washing machine within 2 years.  To boot, the authorised service center were idiots and wiss diagnosed the problem twice. Picked it up, took it home, threw in bin.Now have a Electrolux with a brushless motor.  Quiet and problem free.
Reply:Originally Posted by LarryOSorry, but Maytag is out in my books.  Never had so much trouble with a washing machine within 2 years.  To boot, the authorised service center were idiots and wiss diagnosed the problem twice. Picked it up, took it home, threw in bin.Now have a Electrolux with a brushless motor.  Quiet and problem free.
Reply:fdc,Thank you for reinforcing my previous point.Would you rather have a welder with a warranty backed by a 26 Billion dollar company, or would you rather have one owned by a foreigner operating out of a leased warehouse?One thing that's true about the internet.  A little company (welder importers) can make themselves look a lot bigger and financially stable than they really are, all at a minimum cost.Do you really believe that either of the companies we see advertise here, have the financial means to stand behind their warranties if they experienced a large batch of faulty machines as they did a few years ago with the mosfet based machines.  I think it would be much more likely that they just shutter the doors and move on to greener pastures with the money they have in their bank accounts.If these companies had put as much effort into developing a distribution network along with a service network to support the customer, I'd be less leary of their long term objectives.  That doesn't seem to be their modus operandi.  They seem more concerned with introducing a "new machine" every week or so.  Could it be that they just found another manufacturer in China that could produce a machine for a few less dollars.  If you design a machine properly, you don't have to "remake the wheel" every few months.   For instance, how long has Miller produced a Syncrowave 250/350?  How long has the Dynasty 200 been available?  How long has a Dialarc 250 AC/DC been available.It really comes down to where equipment (such as welders) are designed, specifications created, and QC occurs.  That and who's standing behind the warranty.  Miller, Lincoln, Hypertherm,etc all have excellent technical support departments manned by technically proficient personnel.  They also produce excellent manuals and training material.  All that costs money.No one would question that these companies "outsource" some of their parts to foreign countries.  Just recently, the sunami in Japan, caused Miller to fall behind on the orders for the Dynasty 350's as well as some other equipment.  It's not where the part was made, it's about the specs for the part and how a company handles it's quality control.Comparing welding machines/plasma cutters to laptop computers is also a bunch of crap.  Neither I nor you will ever see a welder in nearly every home in the US.Actually, the "consumer market" for welding machines is, I suspect, very small.  I would further guess that the "hobby welder" makes up a very small percentage of Miller's overall sales volume.  The commercial/industrial user is Miller's bread and butter and it's not just new machines but the consumables that industry uses.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIIf you design a machine properly, you don't have to "remake the wheel" every few months.   For instance, how long has Miller produced a Syncrowave 250/350?  How long has the Dynasty 200 been available?  How long has a Dialarc 250 AC/DC been available.
Reply:Brucer,I have never seen a Clarke in a professional shop, ever.Snap on welders you will see more in body shops, not in fab shops, WAY over priced as is all snap on.Have you ever used a Miller? If you can not tell a difference then weld for hours at a time, then you will. I am interested in the GOOD quality Chinese machines not the lower quality stuff you see on ebay.  Just as I have never used a Kempi but would like to try one.Tim Beeker.
Reply:Originally Posted by tnjindBrucer,I have never seen a Clarke in a professional shop, ever.Snap on welders you will see more in body shops, not in fab shops, WAY over priced as is all snap on.Have you ever used a Miller? If you can not tell a difference then weld for hours at a time, then you will. I am interested in the GOOD quality Chinese machines not the lower quality stuff you see on ebay.  Just as I have never used a Kempi but would like to try one.
Reply:Hey guys,I believe the OP has been provided sufficient data that he can make a decision for his purchase. HIS decision will be the one he will have to live with.The pi$$ing matches are, again, starting, soooooooo.......bye-bye.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."