Critique my welds please

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This is 3/16 angle and plate on the highest setting on my MM175. To break the piece apart I had to pound the crap out of it  so I think they are holding well. Sorry they are a little blurry. Thanks for looking.
Reply:I'm no MIG expert, but it looks like either not enough heat or you were moving too fast. The welds look nice, but they should not break apart like that.
Reply:More heat.MORE MORE MORE!Your bead appearance looks very good.  But you got the "hot glue" effect going on there.  Keep the wire at the leading edge of the puddle or you just squirt molten steel on your parts.What wire speed were you running when you had the 175 at full tilt?I'm no MIG expert either but you asked for critique so my 2 cents.
Reply:on the plus side there aint a spot of undercut shows you have full control over the pool nice one
Reply:Ok I had the voltage on 10 (max), wire speed on 75 (goes to 100), .030 wire, and C25. I find it hard to keep the wire at the forward edge of the puddle. I am using the push method and approx 10-20 degree push angle. I did not bevel but did grind down to clean metal. I did cut one piece with my bandsaw and then beltsanded the cut with fine grit paper and I see no void at the joint but cannot see the amount of penatration (bead and two pieces look as one). Thanks
Reply:Use a pull angle with that little penetration.
Reply:Your weld shouldn't break like that.  The pieces should break before the weld does.  The last pic looks like you had some porosity in there too, maybe form not cleaning your parts or your gas flow.  It might not be porosity, it may just be the way I'm looking at it but its possible.DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:I have a mm 175 too. If I was going to join 3/16ths together in a structural or critical way I would bevel each piece down to about 1/16th first and gapped it a bit. Doesn't take much, have to clean it anyway. Just bear down a little more and it's beveled. Of course I'd finish by flipping it over, gouging it out and filling the groove.  For practice and testing what you did was fine, always clean it up first tho. Most angle has a rounded edge so it's kinda like a bevel. Leave a little gap. Tack it so the gap doesn't close up while you're running a bead. For now just run a stringer with a drag, keeps the bead hotter longer with the arc pointing towards it. 3/16ths is a little heavy for a 175, one pass, regardless of the glossy brochure. I'd probably have the wire feed up around 80-90ish depending on brand and how it responded.  Hopefully you'd get a little tear out of the base metal on the hot end of the bead when you do the bend test and most of the bead just folded back flat. I've got flux core on right now or I'd run out and give it a shot.
Reply:A little clarification is needed on my part here. First of all thanks for the replys. Ok, When I welded the plate to the angle I welded T style to the center of the angle and not near an edge and no bevel. Also only welded one side about one inch of weld. When I bent it over flat the weld DID NOT break. It only broke when I bent it back again. Also I bent the plate toward the weld. Should I bend it AWAY from the weld?The stuff I am making is Jeep bumpers (all 3/16) and I wan't to make sure I'm not going to take someones life. I have stick welded for a few years (home skooled and nothing has broken but my new mig is a different beast. Ya the welds look ten times better but want to be sure they will hold. I think they are fine but want to make sure. Some bumpers have reciever hitches and shackle mounts so there could be some medium to hard pulls. I do bevel everything butt jointed or T'ed just not for this test. I will await more replys on how to properly test and will post pictures (Clearer next time) when I try again. Also, why does Miller advertize a 175 can do 1/4",one pass when it looks like it can "just" do 3/16"?ThanksKelLast edited by hywyh8r; 05-07-2007 at 12:33 AM.
Reply:The MM180 is rated at 5/16" material...but that is with the FCAW setting and wire. Good prep is crucial, you can't just weld GMAW with rust, mill scale and paint on the steel...unlike SMAW 6010 or 6011. Clean it off, wire brush it down and strike an arc. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Originally Posted by MicroZoneThe MM180 is rated at 5/16" material...but that is with the FCAW setting and wire. Good prep is crucial, you can't just weld GMAW with rust, mill scale and paint on the steel...unlike SMAW 6010 or 6011. Clean it off, wire brush it down and strike an arc.
Reply:I am not sure what to think here. With a MM175 on 3/16 material you should have been almost able to biurn through the material. To me, I don't see any real good penetration. The beads look good but the weld should not break like it did. Looks allot like the beads themselves were brittle where they broke apart. You might want to try and turn down the heat a little and slow the wire speed down and try and control the puddle and arc to try and get better penetration. with .030 wire size 130-140 amps should be lots.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:The weld should have broken (in MY opinion)  you got enough penatration, the weld broke in half.  If you had welded the full seam (length) it would not have broken at all.  The spatter shows too much volts or improper drag angle.  Try this, turn the volts all the way up, then turn up the wire speed till you get a smooth weld with no stubbing.  Maybe back the wire speed off just a little bit more.FUSION was acomplished, the bead broke down the middle.  What you were testing was the strength of the wire.  The weld stuck to both plates under full stress. That is all you can ask for.  I think is was a good weld.  Back hand will improve peneatration.DavidDavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RThe weld stuck to both plates under full stress. That is all you can ask for.
Reply:Well everybody says put up or shut up so . . . I tried it as best I could with TIG and I guess I'll shut up.  Quick TIG weld of 1/8" plate.  Stuck it in the vice and bent it with a wrench.  So far, so good, the plate bent as expected.  Then, whacked it real good with a hammer and, uh oh.  It bent at the weld revealing no fusion at the joint itself.  Same as the OP.  Back to the drawing board.  Attached Images
Reply:Phila - In the first picture, it looks like the bead is too cold. The weld (fillet weld throat size) looks Convex. Not enough heat, keep practicing and if your tig has a pedal, give her more gas! John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:I think the problem is that you used a Canadian dime. When you do the dime thing you have to use an American dime.Try again with an American dime, this time.Washman
Reply:Gawd, ask and ye shall recieve   Its a mig weld!!!  not a tig weld.  Toes are good (edges of the weld) but needs more time at the middle, looks like you paused at the toes but flew threw the center on a z weave?  Just a guess.  slow down pause at all 3 points if weaving and see if that helps.Various GrindersVictor Journeyman torch200cf Acet. 250cf oxygenLincoln 175 plus/alpha2 gunLincoln v205t tigLincoln 350mpEsab 650 plasmaWhen you can get up in the morning, Its a good day.Live each day like its your last.
Reply:In another thread, I welded 1 1/4" bead on a 3/8" T joint with 1/8" 7018.  I could break that weld too.  It broke in the center of the weld.  This ment to ME the penatration OR fusion was fine, just not enough total weld.Yes the mig weld in the pic is a little too convex by my eyes.  It also looks like the center of the weld way down deep in the root did NOT get good penatration or fusion.  Perhaps 2 passes.  One smaller one to get a good root, and one larger one to fill the rest.   OR if the welder was set like I recomended, it would have more penatration on the root.Still looks like the wire speed was too slow (not enough amps)The weld should have 3/16 legs and be flat or a little convex.Not arguing at all.I have some 3/16 plate at work, I could give it a shot and post pics if you all want.  I do not have a 175, just a wirematic 250, OR Invertec 350 (EeeeHHhaaa!) with .035 & .045 wire feed.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by MicroZonePhila - In the first picture, it looks like the bead is too cold. The weld (fillet weld throat size) looks Convex. Not enough heat, keep practicing and if your tig has a pedal, give her more gas!
Reply:Originally Posted by David RI have some 3/16 plate at work, I could give it a shot and post pics if you all want.  I do not have a 175, just a wirematic 250, OR Invertec 350 (EeeeHHhaaa!) with .035 & .045 wire feed.
Reply:I went to the miller site, MM180 is RATED at 135 amps @ 22.5 volts.  This works out to 216 ips of .035 wire or 270 ips of .030 wire.  I have no .030 wire.  At my place, its .023, or .035.  I will run the test @ .035 specs.  Camera is at work today.  Who sez I'll do it properly?   I'll do the best I can.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I did it (I think I did anyway).  OK, pedal to the metal 121 amps (I like odd numbers) on 1/8" plate, 1/16" 70S-2 wire, 3/32" ceriated tungsten ground to a sharp point (what am I forgetting?).Welded the T joint from one side only.  Put it in a big vice and whacked away with the BFH.  The top plate bent at the top of the weld fillet and the plates remained perpendicular at the weld joint itself.  You can see where the plate "curled up" where it was not welded at each end. It held firm at the weld.  The weld is stronger than the plates.  The weld fillet is as if a gusset that the top plate bent over.  Not just hot glue for the plates.I think this is how a weld is supposed to perform (more or less anyway).  I'm still concave in the bead but I'm working on it.  Attached ImagesLast edited by phila.renewal; 05-08-2007 at 09:37 AM.
Reply:if you only weld one side of the plate(1 pass only) and take a sledge and hammer the opposite side of the plate the weld will eventually break.for instance i did it the other day with a 1/2" plate of 500 high wear welded at 30 volts and somewhere around 500 wfs with dual shield flux core. there was no corner of the plate to be found and the weld broke down the middle ( after 20 min of banging on it. This is how you check for penetration!
Reply:First pic,  3/16" plate welded with .035 wire, C/25, 18 volts, 225 ips.  This comes out to around 135 amps.  Pic is terrible.  After putting the plate in a vice and cranking away like MAD, I finally got it to fold.  It broke when bending back.  Looks like same results ad the original poster. Pic is not good, but the first 1/4 inch of the weld didn't penatrate at all.  Weld broke down the center. Attached ImagesReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.Next I tried 22.5 volts, 350 Ipm.  This should be around 200 amps.  You can see the difference in the weld and it WOULD NOT BREAK.  Miller website shows a MAX out put of about 21 or 22 volts at 180 amps for the MM180.  Your welder should be able to do this.I'll try posting one at a time. Attached ImagesLast edited by David R; 05-08-2007 at 08:47 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:OK, I beat the crap out if it with a 2 lb hammer.  I also put it in the vice like the first piece.  NO dice.NO bending of the weld. Attached ImagesLast edited by David R; 05-08-2007 at 08:38 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:500 ipm, AG8 for gas, 28.5 volts.  Now we are into the ZONE.  I gave this to my 15 year old son and said "I bet you can't break this".  He tried and tried, then I took a 18" crescent wrench to it.  We had some fun and got out some frustration on this piece.  You could see a couple of spots on the back of the weld that had full penatration right through the plate.  I think the previous plate was good enough.So I admit I was wrong about the poster's first weld.  I guess it could have been better.  This is only 3/16" plate we are working with.  NO prep was done except cut it on  a band saw.  Plate was not rusty, but mill scale was left there.  I have the lincoln hand book of welding procedures.  I always thought the amps suggested were high, but as I learn more by hanging around here and trying things, they are right.There is nothing better than MORE AMPS.I have learned a bunch from this too.  Thanks.David Attached ImagesLast edited by David R; 05-08-2007 at 08:43 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I'm convinced... You need a bigger hammer...  ..zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Great stuff.On the one hand I'm glad that the "theory" can really work in the real world.On the other hand, I realize now how cold I've likely been making my welds and how much more practice I need to get it right.  I love it when it just won't break.  To the OP -- more heat; MORE MORE MORE.
Reply:Originally Posted by hywyh8rOk I had the voltage on 10 (max), wire speed on 75 (goes to 100), .030 wire, and C25. I find it hard to keep the wire at the forward edge of the puddle. I am using the push method and approx 10-20 degree push angle. I did not bevel but did grind down to clean metal. I did cut one piece with my bandsaw and then beltsanded the cut with fine grit paper and I see no void at the joint but cannot see the amount of penatration (bead and two pieces look as one). Thanks
Reply:Thanks for all the suggestions and opinions, I'm glad this thread has gone so far because this is great info for all of us.David R, I see you got the same results as me on my first test So I'm pretty confident my welds are adaquate. A perfect test would be to pull the pieces apart somehow in a press and really see what happens Someone able, or know how this could be done?Another reason why I like this site so much. Many profesional welders here that offer FREE advice to us DIY's. You don't get that much anymore. Thanks .
Reply:Originally Posted by phila.renewalI have to respectfully disagree but maybe it's my misunderstanding.My understanding is that a true weld is not a just a bead which sticks to both plates and uses itself as the bulk of the strength in the connection.  A true weld melts and fuses the parts themselves together with the bead becomming integral to that mix.  The weld should be, in rough terms, at least as strong as the parts.  What I'd expect to see with 3/16" plates and a good weld with 3/16" or more of good weld in the throat (acting like a gusset in effect) when tested like this is the top plate bend over before the weld broke.  The weld should ensure the parts are fused together and to itself, not just glue them to one another.What I see in the pics is a very nice looking bead with good fusion all the way out to the toes, but very little penetration to the base metal.  It's just a bead basically glued to the plates.I've read before about the argument between fusion and penetration but maybe don't quite have it straight in my own mind.Anyway, I don't mean to be argumentative, just want to learn.
Reply:Originally Posted by WashmanI think the problem is that you used a Canadian dime. When you do the dime thing you have to use an American dime.Try again with an American dime, this time.Washman
Reply:In the Lincoln procedure hand book of arc welding for 3/16 horizantal fillet or T weld, it calls for C02 gas, .045 wire @ 150 IPM  (165 amps) 19 to 21 volts.I can convert that to approx 300-350 ipm for .030 wire,  240-280 ipm for .035 wire.  Drop 2 to 3 volts for C25.This is for ONE pass welding.Evergon, if I remove the mill scale, I will not have any more amps.  It may help, but not enough to matter to me.DavidIts all about heat.
Reply:Originally Posted by hywyh8rA little clarification is needed on my part here. First of all thanks for the replys. Ok, When I welded the plate to the angle I welded T style to the center of the angle and not near an edge and no bevel. Also only welded one side about one inch of weld. When I bent it over flat the weld DID NOT break. It only broke when I bent it back again. Also I bent the plate toward the weld. Should I bend it AWAY from the weld?ThanksKel
Reply:Originally Posted by elvergonAccording to the mechanics of material class, elements are designed just for that... that´s why the weld should have the same size of the welded material.However, if you get penetration it is better, no doubt about that...I think I agree with David first post....Maybe a TIG weld from Zap taken to the hammer could be nice
Reply:How do you guys break them like that. Thats why I dont like mig right now because with stick I know the point to where a weld will be strong and I can weld something then take a hammer and literally swing as hard as I can and it just bends the steel but it doesnt crack or shear. If you can break it with a hammer I think the welds should be stronger.
Reply:I can't really tell you anything about your welds from these pics, worn out eyes, no focus and glare make it too hard.GMAW is a low penetration process much like 7018. I think I get better penetration using FCAW. It seems to dig a bit.On this weld the weld should break before the parent metal. It has to because the weld is thinner than the parent metal. And that is the nature of the fillet weld. Using 100% penetration the parent metal should break, shear, etc., before the weld does. Looking at the backside after you break it is where you can tell the most about any deficiencies in the weld. Very few deficiencies are detectable from the outside of the weld, I.E. - porosity, bugholes and undercut. The bad thing about the mig, and I have seen this countless times with guys who are new to it, is that you can lay the prettiest looking bead you ever have and it not be holding anything.A properly executed weld in the fillet position made with a mig will be slightly concave, as it should with 7018, 6010/11, and 7024. If it is humped up, aka convex, you are running too slow or too cold.I would still recommend to anyone beginner and pro alike that they get a copy of "The Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding" from the Lincoln Foundation. It shows you all of the good things and all of the bad things as well as explaining how to avoid or limit those bad things. Pros call it the bible and for good reason. It is considered to be the definitive text on the subject, doesn't get overly technical, covers all of the processes (hopefully the new edition covers STT), and tells you where to go for more in depth information on every subject covered. Yes I am a Lincoln fan, but I also own a Synchrowave 250 DX Tigrunner, and just today purchased an XMT 304 inverter (actually a Red-d-arc EX300, but the only difference is the aluminum case). I can't wait to get it fired up tomorrow and see how well it runs my suitcase.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jolly RogerThe bad thing about the mig, and I have seen this countless times with guys who are new to it, is that you can lay the prettiest looking bead you ever have and it not be holding anything.
Reply:There's more to a good weld than pulling the trigger?  Dang!I think we definitely need more cowbell. Turn the heat up until you blow clean through, then back it off a hair!! Man, I need a diggitall camera. I have to plan pics 2 weeks in advance!  "Mig machine alley", as I think of it at school...somewhere in there is a machine with enough cahones to burn through 3/16" angle!City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Originally Posted by David RAmen!
Reply:And I'd also like to see a TIG weld from Zap taken to the hammer (although his beads are so nice, it would almost be a shame to hammer on it).
Reply:Mig is just like the other processes you just have to learn it. You can see everything the puddle is doing. I only go low and slow on the small stuff and even then I still get it. I have used Mig for years now and trust it just as much as I do sticks. Everything has to be clean because you don't have the oxidizers and such that fluxed rods have to burn them out. More and more mig is used for everything possible because of cost and speed. The last shop I worked in had a 1000 amp mig setup. It would lay a bead 1 1/4 inches wide using 3/32 flux cored gas shielded wire. This thing would burn your eyes in about 2 seconds, melt your hood and make your clothes smoke. There is a definite technique to doing it right. Try pushing it instead of pulling it. You will get better penetration and have much less chance of cold lap. If your bead is humping up you aren't doing it right. It will either be slightly concave or convex depending on the positioning and joint type. I run downhill with it all the time. The mig loves it, and done properly they are good strong welds. 7018 is an all position rod including downhill, the mig bead downhill is almost identical to the downhill lohi weld. Everything depends on joint type and the specific loading it has to take.The amount of penetration in a specific joint of any type is a design specification. The vast majority of fillet welds do not require 100% penetration. The number of passes required, joint setup (bevels, u-grooves, one side or both sides welded, width of bead, etc.) is all determined when the weldment is in the design stages, and all of this will be in the specifications. There is even a set order in which the passes are laid in. That Lincoln book will show you all of this and explain it.I will take some pics and post them as soon as I have a chance. I am very busy right now (as in about 2 months worth of work waiting on me to get it done) and setting up new equipment so it might take a while.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:while the BFH test is useful it's not the ideal way to learn how good fusion is, especially with a filletthe most important thing with a single sided fillet is fusion and depth of fusion. the thickness of the sheet/plate/tube will determine how much reinforcement/filler deposition is required. a nick break and an acid macro etch will reveal more than a BFHcut a sample from the weld, say a couple of inches long. with a hacksaw make a SMALL nick along the centreline of the weld cap to act as a stress riser and then apply the BFH. unless fusion is poor, the sample will break through the weld deposit alone the line of least resistance originating at the initial nick.if the cut edge of the top piece adjacent to the weld bead can still be seen once the weld has broken then root fusion did not happen- try againone of the pieces that the nick break sample was cut from can then be prepped and etched. sand the weld cross-section smooth and apply a couple of drops of acid (10% nital (nitric acid in methanol) is the correct stuff but i believe battery acid will give a result) and the total area of fusion achieved will be revealedsome samples of macro etchs...  http://images.google.co.uk/images?sv...&q=weld+macros Originally Posted by zapsterYour on!Saturday at class we'll do the destruction thing in front of everybody..Whats the challenge?An  "L" weld..Or a "T" weld..You decide..We'll use 1/4" alum And some steel.....zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by Jolly Roger Try pushing it instead of pulling it. You will get better penetration
Reply:zap, if you're gonna do some destruction testing try this as one of themcouple of fillet welds with Al. use 4043 for one weld and 5356 for the other. no nick breaks, just the BFH. note the differences in the way each one fails
Reply:Originally Posted by hotrodderzap, if you're gonna do some destruction testing try this as one of themcouple of fillet welds with Al. use 4043 for one weld and 5356 for the other. no nick breaks, just the BFH. note the differences in the way each one fails
Reply:I found this on the Miller website.  http://www.millerwelds.com/education...tips/MIG_tips/15. A drag or pull gun technique will give you a bit more penetration and a narrower bead. A push gun technique will give you a bit less penetration, and a wider bead. (Refer to Diagram 3. Effect of Electrode Position and Welding Technique)DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Thanks for keeping this discusion going. Still reading and learning